Book 2 – Page 107

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Re: Re:

Postby ManaCaster » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:57 pm

teratorn wrote:
Free Radical wrote:You're quite correct that starting a new side requires a purse of shmuckers - it was the reason Jillian couldn't just restore her kingdom and be a queen when Stanley arrives.


Not sure that it follows, Jillian needed not only to claim but also to rebuild the city. The issue here is that Parson would need to break from GK before claiming the city for himself. Without a purse he would immediately disband.

He wouldn't disband until he needs to pay his upkeep. Which would be next turn. At which point he would have a minimum level 1 city to pay it. Heck, the city won't even have been reduced to level 1, since Sizemore will put it out before it turns into an ash hex.

The only reason Jillian needed Transvylto's help to rebuild was because Stanley razed the cities and it would have taken too long to just wait for schmuckers to build up naturally. She wouldn't have had enough troops for the big battle. She could have become Queen and eventually reestablished Faq any time she wanted, if she didn't enjoy barbarianism so much.
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Re: Re:

Postby Morni » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:41 pm

ManaCaster wrote:The only reason Jillian needed Transvylto's help to rebuild was because Stanley razed the cities and it would have taken too long to just wait for schmuckers to build up naturally. She wouldn't have had enough troops for the big battle. She could have become Queen and eventually reestablished Faq any time she wanted, if she didn't enjoy barbarianism so much.


Jillian never wanted to be a queen. She trashed a perfectly good tea pot in a hissy fit when Don told her she had to become a queen.

But for her, the hissy fits sounded like a warcray.

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE021_PotFling_600.jpg

Summer Update 21 wrote:"No," said Don King in grave seriousness. "I have a different title in mind. When I say it, you might also like to shout and throw your teacup. Please be my guest. But it is your best possible bet for getting Stanley."

His business at last. She steeled herself.

"What."

"Take your rightful title, Jillian. Queen of Faq. Transylvito will help you rebuild."

Her ears rang. She stared at Don King for a long, long moment, without breathing. No. No no. She was a beetle in a glass bottle, furiously looking for a way out, a way that he wasn't right, but slipping back down over and over again. Ansom would want this some part of her mind told her. Another part was already doing old calculations for Faq's three cities popping gwiffons and megalogwiffs on a full war footing. How many turns before she could raise enough units to take Gobwin Knob by air...?

She stood up, and looked at the table. Instead of the cup, she picked up the teapot and hurled it with a piercing scream of frustration.

But even to her own ears, it came out as a war cry.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby LordAcme » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:44 pm

Just a thought, it's entirely possible that regardless of Erfworld rules, Parson may not be able to split and form a new side. Allow me to quote:

"Warlord, if you refuse an order, the spell which summoned you will end your existence entirely. You must serve your Lord's will and desires. Forever."

Parson isn't a normal unit, and that grants him unexpected abilities, but I think there may be a limitation or two that comes with that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Kreistor » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:09 am

Sonic Screwdriver wrote:
Swodaems wrote:It is about damned time somebody gave Parson a honest critique about his battlefield performance. He has been making a mess of it for a while now and deserves the calling out.
Were it not for the food fight, the scene would've been "two casters, including the Arkenpliers, and the entire army in the field, with little damage to the enemy." After the food fight, he didn't really do much except throw himself in danger and kill Jack for no benefit, but I doubt that's the criticism Stanley's throwing.


1) The assault plan on Jetstone was Ansom's, not Parson's. Parson is hamstrung, and not in full control of the situation.

2) There are too many Trimancer Link-ups for anyone to plan for them all. End of GK Turn is something no one can plan for, since it comes randomly at enemy will, so can hit during any critical moment in any plan.

3) Parson did not order Inferno. Sylvia did that without orders, and perhaps with subtle manipulation by Thinkamancy (Dish).

4) Parson never put himself in charge, and didn't want command, specifically so that a higher bonus Warlord already in Jetstone would give them a better chance.

5) Wanda was not to step into the MK. Jack was not to step back into Jetstone.

6) Parson had no plan. He had very little knowledge of the status of the place when he stepped through the portal, and so could only react.

You are faulting Parson for having to deal with significant unpredictable enemy action, He has overcome many incredible problems, including insubordination (Sylvia, Jack, Wanda), unforeseeable dangers (Link, Inferno), and surprise turns of events (becoming CW, Portal depopping right in behind him, comms shutdown to Stanley). I seriously do not understand the metric whereby you're judging a man that was handed a pig-in-a-poke and has not only won, but found the path to total victory. It's not Parson's fault Stanley lacks strategic thinking.

But one thing is pretty certain. Maggie will solve the comms issue. The GMTTA are standing right beside her. Can Charlie stand up to a Tri-mancer Thinkamancer Link? The Dish beats any one Thinkamancer, but I doubt it beats three.
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Re: Re:

Postby teratorn » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:58 am

ManaCaster wrote:He wouldn't disband until he needs to pay his upkeep. Which would be next turn.


The evidence we have thus far contradicts this. Units without a purse disappear immediately as they lose their side, it happened to Wanda, when her side collapsed all units not stacked with her vanished, no need to wait for upkeep to be payed for. I guess you can't be an independent entity without a purse.
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Re: Re:

Postby mortissimus » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:32 am

teratorn wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:He wouldn't disband until he needs to pay his upkeep. Which would be next turn.


The evidence we have thus far contradicts this. Units without a purse disappear immediately as they lose their side, it happened to Wanda, when her side collapsed all units not stacked with her vanished, no need to wait for upkeep to be payed for. I guess you can't be an independent entity without a purse.


I don't know what the rule is. Could be "barbarians can't have more then one stack" or "if you loose your last city you loose everything that is not in the rulers personal stack" or something. I was a bit surprised at that, I would have thought Wanda would have got to keep all the troops until it was time to pay up.
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Re: Re:

Postby teratorn » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:37 am

mortissimus wrote:I don't know what the rule is. Could be "barbarians can't have more then one stack" or "if you loose your last city you loose everything that is not in the rulers personal stack" or something. I was a bit surprised at that, I would have thought Wanda would have got to keep all the troops until it was time to pay up.


If this were a game a simple rule could be: any unit not assigned to a paying queue simply disappears.
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Re: Re:

Postby Whispri » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:12 am

mortissimus wrote:
teratorn wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:He wouldn't disband until he needs to pay his upkeep. Which would be next turn.
The evidence we have thus far contradicts this. Units without a purse disappear immediately as they lose their side, it happened to Wanda, when her side collapsed all units not stacked with her vanished, no need to wait for upkeep to be payed for. I guess you can't be an independent entity without a purse.
I don't know what the rule is. Could be "barbarians can't have more then one stack" or "if you loose your last city you loose everything that is not in the rulers personal stack" or something. I was a bit surprised at that, I would have thought Wanda would have got to keep all the troops until it was time to pay up.

Could just have been poor rolling on Wanda's part. I'm inclined to favour 'lose everything that's unlead'.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Miryafa » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:21 am

I just realized Parson may fulfill the "end war" prophecy by being such an unfair player and winning that the other players just pack up and go home. It seems to me that Parson is actually lucky to have as an opponent Charlie, who is just as hardcore-determined-to-win as him.

And I'm currently wondering if the eyebook is cutoff rom Tool. Someone suggested the cutoff thinkagram and eyebook could both be the work of Charlie, which makes sense.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Lipkin » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:24 pm

Ok, you guys have no idea how hard it was reading this thread, and not being able to post because of issues with my activation email. I've been trying to activate my account since we saw the x's in Jack's eyes.

Speaking of Jack, could someone take a look at panel 2 and tell me what they see? That's just problems with perspective, and the colors of Jack's body and the purple dwagon mixing, right? Tell me the purple dwagon isn't eating his body.





Ok, here is why I am hoping Jack gets decrypted. It would be terrifying. Decrypted claim that upon returning, everything is made clear to them. Clarity has always been Jack's weakness. Imagine Jack without confusion, with complete focus upon what his purpose is (to serve Wanda). Remove his kindness, his romance, and replace it with ruthlessness and cunning. It's a truly scary thought. It would add a good bit of drama, while also letting us know more about decryption, because Jack would be the first person that Parson knew before and after decryption. He'd be able to interview him, and gauge his responses based upon what he knew of Jack before. In addition, whereas before Jack was Parson's companion, now Parson would be unable to trust him. Everything said to Jack would inevitably make it's way back to Wanda.

That being said, those of you talking about the arkenshoes allowing for a unstoppable assassin, what about a dwagonborne masterclass foolmancer under full veil? Seems like it would be pretty hard to stop. Pull the same stunt that was pulled with destroying the siege, except with any target they want, and veiling the dwagon after withdrawing.
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Re: Re:

Postby teratorn » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:45 pm

Whispri wrote:Could just have been poor rolling on Wanda's part. I'm inclined to favour 'lose everything that's unlead'.


Queen Bea's troops also vanished as soon as she entered the portal, and those included warlords.
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Re: Re:

Postby Whispri » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:47 pm

teratorn wrote:
Whispri wrote:Could just have been poor rolling on Wanda's part. I'm inclined to favour 'lose everything that's unlead'.
Queen Bea's troops also vanished as soon as she entered the portal, and those included warlords.

What of it? Bea had no heir.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Lipkin » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:56 pm

For all the talk in this thread about the possibility of Parson splitting off into his own side, I've only seen people discussing Parson rejoining Gobwin Knob afterwards, or setting up shop in Jetstone as his capitol. I'd have him do something different.

So Parson splits off, which opens up the portal. He asks Sizemore to come save the city (as far as I can tell, the only thing keeping casters out of portals of rival cities is the neutrality of the Magic Kingdom. There shouldn't need to be an official alliance to bring Sizemore through, and if Parson asks, Sizemore probably would). Once Jetstone has been saved, Parson leaves through the portal, meaning that the last, and only, member of his side has left the garrison zone, allowing Gobwin Knob to recapture Jetsone. Parson is now in the Magic Kingdom, a barbarian warlord, his only allegiance to himself. He is now truly a player, not a piece.

Now obviously, this would cause some problems. He's not supposed to be in the Magic Kingdom, so he immediately surrenders himself to the protection of the GMTTA. Stanley is going to be furious that Parson split, but Parson can argue that he's more trouble than he's worth to Gobwin Knob. With Parson on his side, Charlie is going to throw everything he has at Stanley's forces, and is going to try to undermine them at every turn. With Parson split, it frees Stanley to focus on conquest while Parson worries about bringing down Charlie.

So now that Parson is on his own, his first priority is to obtain a purse to maintain his hefty upkeep. It just so happens that he has a growing reputation as a military genius, as well as a powerful mathmancy item, and a cadre of thinkamancers with a grudge against Charlie at his disposal. Using the thinkamancers to advertise, he can seriously hurt Charlie's business. Parson may not have an army, but his military advice is priceless. And by charging dramatically less smuckers than Charlie, and by treating his clients fairly, Parson can make bank at the same time that he chips away at Charlescom's foundation. If Charlescom doesn't have a constantly growing client base, it isn't able to afford upkeep on all it's Archons, and Charlie's army begins to shrink.

Basically, I want Parson to invent corporate warfare. And while he's doing that, he can multitask and find out what the thinkamancers, hippiemancers, and predictamancers want from him.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby almondsAndRain » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:07 pm

Lipkin wrote:Speaking of Jack, could someone take a look at panel 2 and tell me what they see? That's just problems with perspective, and the colors of Jack's body and the purple dwagon mixing, right? Tell me the purple dwagon isn't eating his body.

I don't see Jack in that panel. It sort of looks like the dwagon got crushed by debris and the floor collapsed under it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Vreejack » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:10 pm

Stanley has just abandoned Parson. If Parson wants to save GK's remaining forces and what is left of Jetstone then he will do what he must: start his own side. What can Stanley possibly complain about.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Lipkin » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:28 pm

Vreejack wrote:Stanley has just abandoned Parson. If Parson wants to save GK's remaining forces and what is left of Jetstone then he will do what he must: start his own side. What can Stanley possibly complain about.

Parson doesn't see it that way. He didn't get a chance to try to argue with Stanley, because Charlie cut Parson off. Plus, Loyalty in Erfworld doesn't see to work that way. From Stanley's point of view, Parson should lay down his life in service of the Tool. Parson just doesn't likely hold loyalty over his life.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Cubbins » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:26 am

(Not speaking as the actual Cubbins, here)

Is it possible for Parson to hide away in one of the red dwagon corpses and wait the Inferno out? I forget if they're immune to fire or not. I guess it would be sort of like Luke Skywalker surviving the frigid wastes of Hoth by sleeping inside a tauntaun.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Brucester » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:38 am

hajo wrote:So, plan A (switching capitals, then bringing in Sizemore to put out the inferno) didn't get approved by Stanley...

How about plan B: just raze the city. No city --> nothing to burn --> no fire.
Rebuilding can be done later 8-)
Maybe they can even get some schmuckers out of it...


I second this one - the straightforward answer is to raze the city. Splitting off and creating a separate side sounds plausible as well, but I 'hope' that's not the answer even though it seems to be a fan-favourite. I'd rather raze the city, and then see poor Parsons with half an army and no caster support try to survive what would likely be a looong trip back.

The other possibility (given that Parson appears to have more free will than he used to) is that he renounce his allegiance with Stanley and become a barbarian. That's not quite the same as splitting off to become another side......

Does anyone really think that Stanley will switch the capital to Spacerock? Mmmm.....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Kreistor » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:54 am

Parson splitting a new Side does not solve the problem.

Sizemore must enter Jetstone. If Parson splits Side, with no comms, he cannot ally with Stanley. No Alliance = Sizemore breaking MK Conventions to enter Jetstone. He would be invading a non-allied Side via Portal.

Not going to happen, or he'd have gone with Parson the first time.

Further, Stanley just indicated that he doesn't want to move Capital. You think he's going to trust Parson after starting a new Side (without orders) with his Dirtamancer? Splitting a new Side is the most traitorous thing Parson could do. No comms = traitor = no Alliance = no Sizemore = inferno burns anyway.

Never going to happen!

If comms are restored, and Stanley says, "No Capital move," then he is certainly going to say, "Sizemore won't go to Jetstone if Parson splits the Side." If he doesn't trust Parson enough now for the move, he will certainly not trust him after Side Split, since Parson will (by Stanley's belief) change mentally when he becomes Ruler.

Wait... isn't there a river nearby? Denouement Bridge? Is that accessible? Is it inside the City Hex? Hercules did it to a horse stable that needed cleaning...
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Re: Re:

Postby teratorn » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:12 am

Whispri wrote:What of it? Bea had no heir.


The point under discussion is if units without some sort of funding survive until they need upkeep or if they disappear immediately. All we have seen up to now points to them disappearing immediately. I see no evidence Parson can break from GK without vanishing before he can even claim the city, but Antium probably can since uncroaked apparently do not need to be linked to a paying queue.

Parson can probably order them to break with GK, and start their own side by surrendering the city to them. Then it's in that side's best interest to ally with GK and get Sizemore in.
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