Book 2 – Page 110

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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby ManaCaster » Tue May 28, 2013 12:04 pm

effataigus wrote:Not badly put, Frei. I'm still having loads of fun with the comic as well.

Timeout is badass. :D

Carnymancy is the magic of breaking the rules. Carnymancy is the magic of defying fate. Carnymancy is the magic of stacking plates. Most of all, carnymancy is the magic of doing whatever it is that I need to be done for my theory to work. Could someone link the original version of these lines on carnymancy so we can stop missquoting them?

Breaking rules and defying Fate are not mutually exclusive... Especially since Fate is a rule to be broken.

Anyways, here you go: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-05.jpg
Jojo: You can fight Fate. And win!
Parson: Carnymancy. It's... the magic of rigging the game.
Jojo: Here! That's a crude slander on our noble discipline, sir. Oh, truly you do wound me. But yes."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby Vorteks » Tue May 28, 2013 12:48 pm

Regarding why Parson's bracer would be lying to him, one thing that occurred to me is that the bracer itself is an extension of the summoning spell. It appeared as part of his stupid meal. The back of the "luckamancy charms" box on page 106 of book 1 ( http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F106.jpg ) said that after Parson had his glasses, the sword of ruthlessness, and the bracer, then "the spell will finally be complete! Yay!". So I think that the power behind the odds-calculating bracer comes from the summoning spell itself.

Part of the goal of the summoning spell is to keep Parson in Erfworld and loyal to Gobwin Knob. So admitting to Parson that he could potentially leave by casting Charlie's spell would be acting against it's own interests. Therefore when Parson asked the bracer 'Can I cast this spell?' the bracer started to answer the question, but then the summoning spell vetoed it, essentially saying "Wait! We can't tell him that!".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby bladestorm » Tue May 28, 2013 12:51 pm

Lipkin wrote:
jah77 wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Earlier in the latest text update we saw that the bracer's results are not instantaneous, and that it displays data as it computes. It is not that 98% was the final number that got changed to 0%, it's that 98% was the number until the bracer lastly figured fate into the equation. The bracer is working the same as it always has, no Foolamancy involved.


I agree this sounds more plausible than some sort of active fate. However, we've also seen that the bracer requires information in order to make certain calculations, and that the bracer is not necessarily "all-knowing." The text updates with the bracer making calculations shows that the bracer requires Parson to specify certain conditions, and we've also seen that the bracer requires information from Parson, i.e., when Wanda is talking to Parson about battle plans in the initial stages of the invasion of Spacerock.

On the other hand, the information required by the bracer may simply be constraints on the question that Parson is asking the bracer, and the bracer may actually have Predictamancy capabilities, which of course could take fate into account.

I like your explanation better than the "active fate" or "Titans vs. Charlie" explanations, but I still want Jack to be alive. :)

We know the bracer has predictamancer capabilities, because it predicted that Charlie would find the calculations more valuable than having the answer to the question of Decryption from Parson.

Also, on the topic of Jillian taking Gobwin Knob, she isn't nearby. Last we heard she was heading back to Faq, striking targets of opportunity along the way. Spacerock is on the edge of Gobwin Knob territory, so she is not heading in GobWin Knobs direction. If Faq were near Gobwin Knob, GK would be attacking Translyvito, not Jetstone. Stanley is fine until he has to venture out to reset the capital.

Faq isn't very far away from GK. Stanley was heading there to reclaim a capitol site when he thought tBfGK was hopeless. We don't know the exact distance, how much move his dwagons had, or how much move megalogwiffs have. We also don't know if terrain affects their move or not. If the megalogwiffs have higher move, or are not impeded by terrain (while dwagons are), then Jillian may well be within striking distance. Maybe GK is 50 hexes away from GK. If the lowest move of Stanley's stack going to Faq was 32, but the lowest move of Jillian stack going to GK was 54, it would take Stanley 2 turns to get to GK, but may only take one for Jillian to get to GK. GK could be 30 hexes away from Faq, but if terrain modifiers ate up more than 1 move per hex (steep mountains eating up a LOT more move than flat plains), Stanley could have been hindered by that, but if Jillian hasn't gotten to the mountains yet, she could still be on easy terrain to traverse, making it a lot more possible for her to reach GK this turn. There are lots of numbers we just don't have.

TV and Faq were both minor players in the RCC. Jetstone was the leader of it, and it was Prince Ansom that lead the assault. compared to Unaroyal and Jetstone, TV and Faq are minor targets. It wouldn't surprise me, though, if after Jetstone is wiped out and GK replenishes its forces, if TV and Faq aren't among the next targets. At least until Charlie holds up another lightning rod for Parson's wrath to be drawn to.

Of course that may be part of Charlie's plans. He may know that he cannot launch a strike against GK without endangering his already tarnished image, but if he provokes GK into attacking him, a victory under those circumstances would reinforce his reputation as a fighting force. Defensive strategies and offensive strategies are completely different. Parson has shown that he was NOT going to be beaten in a downgraded GK, so how much damage could Parson do in the new GK with its improved defenses? GK is currently missing most of its tunnel-capable units, which limits their ability to assault Charlescomm through the mountains. They'd pretty much have to use as much firepower as they could muster through an air assault, which would be so many wins for Charlie. He could capture Parson, the bracer, the Pliers, and the Hammer all in one choke-point.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby alowe » Tue May 28, 2013 12:53 pm

Bababaa bump...

alowe wrote:Any ideas on the green recycle symbol on the last frame?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby Xarx » Tue May 28, 2013 1:10 pm

alowe wrote:Bababaa bump...

alowe wrote:Any ideas on the green recycle symbol on the last frame?



I don't see that - where is it?

Edit: Oh, I see! Well spotted. Well... recycling and environmentalism in general is obvious hippiemancy. What that has to do with a Time Out is a mystery to me.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby effataigus » Tue May 28, 2013 1:21 pm

alowe wrote:Any ideas on the green recycle symbol on the last frame?
Probably just hippiemancy signamancy.
bladestorm wrote:We don't know the exact distance, how much move his dwagons had, or how much move megalogwiffs have. We also don't know if terrain affects their move or not.
While mostly true, we do know that Jillian is both "going home" and not going to make it this turn. This suggests to me that the distance between Faq and Spacerock is greater than the move of the megalogwiffs. The possibility that GK is between Faq and Spacerock and within one turn's move is negated by Jillian's promise to flatten every GK city between her and Faq, and Duncan's assessment that this would mean just Brookstone and Pogrock. Source:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -04-29.jpg

I would not be surprised if she changes her goal from going home to going back to Spacerock or going to sack GK (in light of recent events), but I'd only think it likely that she could do the former by the end of this turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby CarniDollMancer » Tue May 28, 2013 1:28 pm

Magothys wrote:Random observation: it hasn't been that long since Parson entered the portal the first time, but panel 8 seems to make it clear that the GMTTA are no longer present, yet the predictamancers are. Weren't the GMTTA worried about Parson? The predictamancers staying at the portal should have been a red flag...

The Great Minds are present. In panel 8, Isaac is clearly one of the characters bent over Parson. The others of GMTTA are in a semicircle around the back of the portal. You can see the turban of one of them. Just wanted to point that out.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby Dunbar » Tue May 28, 2013 2:04 pm

frei wrote:I'm pretty disappointed that Parson didn't figure some ingenious way out of Charlie's trap. Even worse, he was actually trying to read the stupid scroll! This is a major victory for Charlie. Even if he doesn't get rid of Parson, Charlie forced the outcome he wanted against the best efforts of Parson. In existential terms, Parson is still alive, but psychologically, Parson conceded the loss, gave the gg, and chose to go back home.

In Book 1 the frustrating stuff was when Parson was coming up with ingenious ideas and they were failing, because the story necessitated that he come up with yet more ingenious ideas, culminating in a truly epic and winning maneuver. In Book 2 apparently the story just demands that Parson fails, and in the meantime, his ideas totally suck and he concedes a loss. Parson's role in affecting the story is very minimal.


Quoting this as it needs to be repeated. Ever since his idea to harvest the mounts and snatch victory from the jaws of (almost) certain defeat, Parson has been less happening and more happened to. He was stopped by Jojo in the Tunnel, and Janis took care of that. He was stopped by the GMtTA, and Maggie arrives to speak on his behalf. He may not have gotten permission to go through at all had Jojo not changed his mind and made the Carnymancers back down. Then when he does go through the portal, at least he is critical to winning the battle right? No, his forces get no special orders from him, and it's clear Wanda with her bonus and the troops available could have handled everything just fine (given that GK troops managed to beat the remaining forces without her massive bonus).

Parson has been a useless tool for a long while now. And then at the end, back against the wall and facing certain defeat, with Charlie taunting him (remind anyone else of Book 1?), Parson of course thinks of something completely out of the box and wins the day! Um, nope, he asks Stanley to switch capitols...but he convinces Stanley to do it right? No, sorry, Bogroll 2.0 does the convincing. Then his remaining forces save his ass while he was trying to abandon them on the field of battle...when caring about the well-being of his forces was the whole focus of the character development that had him make the emotional decision to head through the portal and be there in the first place when the tactical thing to do would have been to give directions from afar!

Parson has been useless and done nothing at all that has been interesting for a long time now. And I can't see that he can make any impact on the story in the near future. His name may be an anagram for protagonist, but he is doing very little, um, protagonisting. Maybe signamancy will change his name to Mac Guffin. For a while now he has had no impact on the outcome of events and is only important as being part of some prophesy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby Aquillion » Tue May 28, 2013 2:14 pm

bladestorm wrote:Faq isn't very far away from GK. Stanley was heading there to reclaim a capitol site when he thought tBfGK was hopeless. We don't know the exact distance, how much move his dwagons had, or how much move megalogwiffs have. We also don't know if terrain affects their move or not. If the megalogwiffs have higher move, or are not impeded by terrain (while dwagons are), then Jillian may well be within striking distance. Maybe GK is 50 hexes away from GK. If the lowest move of Stanley's stack going to Faq was 32, but the lowest move of Jillian stack going to GK was 54, it would take Stanley 2 turns to get to GK, but may only take one for Jillian to get to GK. GK could be 30 hexes away from Faq, but if terrain modifiers ate up more than 1 move per hex (steep mountains eating up a LOT more move than flat plains), Stanley could have been hindered by that, but if Jillian hasn't gotten to the mountains yet, she could still be on easy terrain to traverse, making it a lot more possible for her to reach GK this turn. There are lots of numbers we just don't have.

TV and Faq were both minor players in the RCC. Jetstone was the leader of it, and it was Prince Ansom that lead the assault. compared to Unaroyal and Jetstone, TV and Faq are minor targets. It wouldn't surprise me, though, if after Jetstone is wiped out and GK replenishes its forces, if TV and Faq aren't among the next targets. At least until Charlie holds up another lightning rod for Parson's wrath to be drawn to.

Of course that may be part of Charlie's plans. He may know that he cannot launch a strike against GK without endangering his already tarnished image, but if he provokes GK into attacking him, a victory under those circumstances would reinforce his reputation as a fighting force. Defensive strategies and offensive strategies are completely different. Parson has shown that he was NOT going to be beaten in a downgraded GK, so how much damage could Parson do in the new GK with its improved defenses? GK is currently missing most of its tunnel-capable units, which limits their ability to assault Charlescomm through the mountains. They'd pretty much have to use as much firepower as they could muster through an air assault, which would be so many wins for Charlie. He could capture Parson, the bracer, the Pliers, and the Hammer all in one choke-point.
The problem is that Jillian started her turn at Jetstone, and we've been told that getting from Jetstone to Gobwin Knob requires something like 11 turns even by Dwagon. She's not going to reach Faq this turn (or for several more turns), and she certainly can't reach Gobwin Knob this turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby mortissimus » Tue May 28, 2013 2:18 pm

frei wrote:1) What *exactly* happens when a side loses it's capital but still has its ruler? I think the only instance we've seen of this happening is Olive taking FAQ. Were they still a unified side, or are all the units effectively barbarian? Like, if Spacerock fell, would Gobwin Knob still have its treasury and cities and the like?


The only examples we have - Goodminton, FAQ (twice) and Gobwin Knob (almost) includes loosing all cities. So we don't know for sure what happens if you only loose your capital, in particular if you have more capital sites lined up. That Charlie needed to twist Jetstone's arm to make sure they took the throne room and could change capitals is generally taken as a sign that for a side with more capital sites, loosing the capital is not such a big deal (except the loss of the city itself).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby MarbitChow » Tue May 28, 2013 2:33 pm

Dunbar wrote:
frei wrote:In Book 2 apparently the story just demands that Parson fails, and in the meantime, his ideas totally suck and he concedes a loss. Parson's role in affecting the story is very minimal.

Quoting this as it needs to be repeated. Ever since his idea to harvest the mounts and snatch victory from the jaws of (almost) certain defeat, Parson has been less happening and more happened to.
I think this is deliberate, and part of a theme. Parson is here to liberate Erfworld. But Parson isn't a Christ-like savior; he's a focal point. In order for the denizens of Erfworld to be truly free, they're going to have to free themselves. This book is full of GK units who, having been exposed to Parson, are taking their own initiative more and more.

Wanda's method of interrogation at the start of the book. Jack peeking through the portal. Maggie's Suggestion on Stanley. Scarlet... er, Sylvia's offensive. In book 1, most characters were content to follow orders, unless the circumstances were dire. In Book 2, we see them, more and more, taking their own initiative. Even Zhopa offering to help Stanley is an example of this.

My take-away from all this is that Free will is asserting itself throughout GK, and by this exposure, spreading through Erfworld itself.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby multilis » Tue May 28, 2013 2:35 pm

mortissimus wrote:
frei wrote:1) What *exactly* happens when a side loses it's capital but still has its ruler? I think the only instance we've seen of this happening is Olive taking FAQ. Were they still a unified side, or are all the units effectively barbarian? Like, if Spacerock fell, would Gobwin Knob still have its treasury and cities and the like?


The only examples we have - Goodminton, FAQ (twice) and Gobwin Knob (almost) includes loosing all cities. So we don't know for sure what happens if you only loose your capital, in particular if you have more capital sites lined up. That Charlie needed to twist Jetstone's arm to make sure they took the throne room and could change capitals is generally taken as a sign that for a side with more capital sites, loosing the capital is not such a big deal (except the loss of the city itself).

Stanley could not take treasury with him to FAQ. (Possible at beginning of book when that was said he could have run to FAQ and rebuilt city before capital fell)

Jetstone was almost out of money, so treasury may have not meant anything. (they could easily spend the last bit on elves/natural allies or promoting things).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby effataigus » Tue May 28, 2013 2:47 pm

multilis wrote:
mortissimus wrote:
frei wrote:1) What *exactly* happens when a side loses it's capital but still has its ruler? I think the only instance we've seen of this happening is Olive taking FAQ. Were they still a unified side, or are all the units effectively barbarian? Like, if Spacerock fell, would Gobwin Knob still have its treasury and cities and the like?


The only examples we have - Goodminton, FAQ (twice) and Gobwin Knob (almost) includes loosing all cities. So we don't know for sure what happens if you only loose your capital, in particular if you have more capital sites lined up. That Charlie needed to twist Jetstone's arm to make sure they took the throne room and could change capitals is generally taken as a sign that for a side with more capital sites, loosing the capital is not such a big deal (except the loss of the city itself).

Stanley could not take treasury with him to FAQ. (Possible at beginning of book when that was said he could have run to FAQ and rebuilt city before capital fell)

Jetstone was almost out of money, so treasury may have not meant anything. (they could easily spend the last bit on elves/natural allies or promoting things).


Yup, and if this reading is right, GK's sizable treasury is now sitting out there with only a handful of toasty red dwagons defending it. Easy fodder for Jillian's strikeforce. Or a flight of archons... whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby MarbitChow » Tue May 28, 2013 2:59 pm

effataigus wrote:Yup, and if this reading is right, GK's sizable treasury is now sitting out there with only a handful of toasty red dwagons defending it. Easy fodder for Jillian's strikeforce. Or a flight of archons... whatever.
No, since it's GK's now, Wanda can easily enter (once the inferno is taken care of) and decrypt all of the fallen units. It will be well defended.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby effataigus » Tue May 28, 2013 3:27 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
effataigus wrote:Yup, and if this reading is right, GK's sizable treasury is now sitting out there with only a handful of toasty red dwagons defending it. Easy fodder for Jillian's strikeforce. Or a flight of archons... whatever.
No, since it's GK's now, Wanda can easily enter (once the inferno is taken care of) and decrypt all of the fallen units. It will be well defended.
It could be well defended. We haven't seen much of Wanda doing sensible things lately however, and she is arguably forbidden from going through the portal anyhoo (by bizarre TMGTTA decision).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby Kaed » Tue May 28, 2013 3:29 pm

Guys, I think in all your whining about how Parson is behaving stupidly, you're kind of missing the point of the book as a whole. You may recall that book 2 is called Love is a Battlefield. This book is not and never was about Parson, specifically. Rob even said way back that his role in this book would be minor. Look, we already know Parson is brilliant. Book 1 told us this. We don't need another one telling us how awesome he is. This book is about Characterization.

This book is is about developing characters, showing that they are real people and not game pieces, and a lot of characters have grown. Wanda and Jillian have broken their awkward relationship to the point where I don't think it's salvageable, most all of the royals had character growth to some level, Wanda learned her Pliers are not infallible, Charlie showed his true colors, and the Archons and Ossomer both showed that, deep down, love is a more powerful force than any Tool, but calling out to Charlie in their last moments and turning to help his father, respectively.

And really, Parson's choice to run to lead the fight in Spacerock was NOT a poor choice it itself. They NEEDED leadership, everyone just sort of flailed around after Wanda was gone, and Wanda isn't as good a leader as Parson, I think. The reason it's gone poorly is because everything stacked against him. Let's count:

1) The carnymancers screwed with him
2) The GMTTL wasted way too much of his time by blocking the portal
3) Wanda was a retard and came through the portal, denying an entire hex the only significant leadership they had, and also by the way causing Ossomer to turn
4) Charlie cheated and spied on all their communications, then alerted Jetstone before he could arrive. He also blocked his communications at a crucial moment. This I should point out was something Parson WAS NOT AWARE HE COULD DO UNTIL IT HAPPENED. Further, Maggie was likely aware he could do this, because she's in the GMTTA, and DIDN'T TELL PARSON, because of a ridiculous CONSPIRACY.
5) Silvia was a bloody maniac and set the whole city into an Inferno just to not have to find out who they hadn't killed yet.
6) Jack made some phenomenally dumb choices and got himself killed, or maybe it was simply an accident. Either way, he did it to himself.

If Parson had simply run right into Spacerock as he expected to do, things would have gone very different. You can't claim he held the idiot ball when it was everyone else holding him back and not his own decision. Frankly, I think it showed he had learned from book 1 and wanted to show he had some humanity, by not sitting back at the situation table and running everything like Stanley and Slately would.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby Infidel » Tue May 28, 2013 3:32 pm

Knight13 wrote:Did that healomancer really just ask how Marie knew that was going to happen? Knowing what's going to happen is what predictamancers are for.


There is a difference between knowing what is about to happen and when it will happen. Text updates show that most predictamancers are not on the same par.

If someone were used to predictamancers predicting that "one-day " something will happen and be somewhat accurate in a general sort of way, then are suddenly confronted with a predictamancer that knows when, where, and who, and what with a high degree of accuracy, a little disbelief might be understood.

But there is another explanation too. Simply put, logic takes longer than emotion, it requires effort and time. If someone is surprised by something, then the initial response will be emotion driven, and logic will come later. So you will see people respond sometimes, "How did you......oh."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby effataigus » Tue May 28, 2013 3:40 pm

Infidel wrote:There is a difference between knowing what is about to happen and when it will happen. Text updates show that most predictamancers are not on the same par.
Aye. Also, we've been given a lot of information suggesting that predictamancers know best that which is fated. This suggests to me (once again) that fate is taking an active role in saving Parson here, so the specificity of Marie's knowledge might be surprising.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby frei » Tue May 28, 2013 4:09 pm

Kaed wrote:Rob even said way back that his role in this book would be minor.

Where did he say that?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 110

Postby YRM_DM » Tue May 28, 2013 4:49 pm

frei wrote:
Kaed wrote:Rob even said way back that his role in this book would be minor.

Where did he say that?


It's not like Parson Gotti is the Protagonist. They don't even have the same letters! oh... they do...
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