Guess I can get back to the regularly scheduled program.
Lilwik wrote:I don't understand how it denies causality and it doesn't look statistically impossible to me. What I see is a situation that seems highly plausible: Wanda was a valuable caster in an area that had high probability of being totally conquered by Haffaton for a long distance in every direction (since we know this is what eventually happened). Given that situation, it seems very probable that no matter what Wanda chose she would inevitably end up in Haffaton. Is that what you are calling statistically impossible? What would you have Wanda do to prevent it?
If two, or three get to the same place, you might have a case. But we're talking about dozens of decisions per day that can take you in different directions. Not a few streams but tens of millions all going to the same place.
In some of them, random death should kill Wanda. She is on a battlefield, and random death takes many, even in Erfworld. Tommy died, according to your Delphie, because he had no Fate. That is random. On that stream he had a random death. Wanda's millions of streams carry no chance of random death. We see she doesn't die randomly to falls. Or arrow storms. Or anything else. That alone is evidence against the "many streams converging" idea.
That leaves us with two possibilities, and only two. Yours cannot resolve this issue. I know you cannot see it now, and maybe you never will, but Fate can only achieve the converging streams idea if it is playing an Active role, forcing those streams together. It cannot happen by random chance in a world of infinite possibility.
Kreistor wrote:I really don't know how you're twisting your mind to allow the third possibility without an active force involved.
I'm just taking it on a case-by-case basis and checking how believable it could be that the Predicted outcome is also an inevitable outcome, and so far I haven't seen any Prediction that couldn't possibly be inevitable.
No, you aren't. You are seeing only the one path that happened, not the thousands that could have. When Wanda fell after fighting Ansom, some streams in a world where Wanda was not protected by an Active Fate lead to her death and failure to achieve her Fate. In your infinite streams concept, if her chance of death was 10%, 10% of all streams end there. If 0% end right there, because she has a Fate, then only an Active Fate is preventing her death by removing the chance of random death. Passive Fate cannot interfere, and she dies. Later you suggest Wanda is responsible for preventing her death to randomness, but she simply cannot control her fall, is those without Fate cannot. The moment you create an active entity that prevents her death to randomness, you have invented Active Fate, because the force has all the symptoms of Active Fate. It is an attempt to have your cake and eat it too.
My version of Passive Fate does not protect her: there is only the one stream and in it she survived the fall, because being outside time, it sees that she will survive.
Kreistor wrote:No, not hate.
You have a strange concept of hate if you'd wish death upon people that you don't hate.
Ah, so anyone that believes in justice and karma are "haters"? Sorry, I do not have your motivation here. If you think that desiring someone's death insists on "hate" being present (especially to an non-existent character in a book), then I'll just have to call you delusional. You cannot see inside my mind, and cannot telepathically determine my thoughts. I felt her death was both justice served, and karmic in nature. She got what she paid for.
Kreistor wrote:I merely think she was an arrogant, self-centered wretch that viewed her analytical ability as beyond everyone else's understanding and consequently when she overstepped and took on responsibility by rationalizing her Ruler's thoughts irrelevant, she got the appropriate punishment, to whit, death.
I agree with all of those accusations, but I think your recommended punishment is overly harsh.
Treason is a Capital Crime. I do not need to defend my agreement. Delphie revealed the position of her Chief Warlord to the enemy, and he died because of that. Sentence: death. Karma: balanced.
Kreistor wrote:No, she wasn't going to save Goodminton. None of her Predictions foresaw that outcome.
The deal would have saved Goodminton if people had just kept blindly following Delphie for a little bit longer. It wasn't Predicted, but it seems obviously true to me. At least Goodminton would have bought itself many more turns than it otherwise had.
Your gut feel is not evidence to me, and not justification for calling it "obvious".
Kreistor wrote:Are you saying that Clay's love for Wanda justifies something? Last I checked, I don't get a choice to love someone... it happens or not. How can you justify anything done to Wanda by Clay's emotional betrayal of Delphie?
Just as Clay's emotions were beyond his control, so were Delphie's emotions beyond her control. I'm not saying Wanda deserved to be treated the way Delphie treated Wanda, but Delphie didn't do it because she was a bad person. Perhaps "justify" is the wrong word, but Delphie was only human.
Lack of emotional control is in no way a defense for hurting people! Look at what you're rationalizing! I'm allowed to kill my neighbour because I'm angry because I think he's screwing my wife, simply because I lack emotional control to hire a PI and find out for sure, and then go for a divorce? We put those that lack emotional control in prison, or in some States, in the soft, damp earth. You've taken all concept of Justice and reason, and abandoned it, in favour of a world where we can do whatever we want just because our emotions are telling us to!
Sorry, but this is 100% a BS rationalization. Emotions are not justification for any action taken against those inspiring the emotion. If "emotion" was Delphie's reason, then Delphie was absolutely one of the most "bad" people in existence! And I can back that up with the flood of people in prison for emotional instability. She's no better than the guy that starts a bar fight because someone jostled his elbow and pissed him off.