Book 2 – Page 111

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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Nygma » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:11 pm

Werebiscuit wrote: Very true, but it doesn't require Wanda to delay on decrypting the bodies to be able to pull it off. Since decrypting only requires the pliers which are essentially juiceless.

Interesting thought.

Do we have any idea how the 'pliers (or any Tool) work? Stanley's a Warlord, so he doesn't have juice. Does the 'hammer have "charges"? Can he do Van de Graff infinitely many times per day? How much of the 'hammer's ability is intrinsic and does any of it come from Stanley?

More interestingly, and to your point: are the 'pliers a decryption tool... or do they hyper-amplify Wanda's capabilities? Can non-croakamancers become attuned to the 'pliers and start decrypting? Do you need to be a Croakamancer to become attuned? Or would an attuned, say, hippiemancer have a completely different capability?

And if it is just mega amplification, does Wanda still need juice to decrypt? I don't recall the comic saying one way or another.

It's also possible going "mass decrypt" requires some bodies to work with - having Sizemore bring the dusted into the effect would definitely be bending the rules, whatever they may be. But bending the rules is Parson's speciality.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby arbo » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:13 pm

ManaCaster wrote:From the sound of things, the summoning spell wouldn't allow Parson to start a new side unless it served Stanley's interests.


"Maggie, listen to me. I will not disband. I'm doing this for the Tool. Because now I know... Charlie is after me. He doesn't care about anyone else. And it's gonna get worse. He is not gonna stop. He will destroy everything that stands in his way. Gobwin Knob if he has to. Stanley. Anyone. I am a threat to any side I am on. I have to start my own side."

"Lord Hamster, just say the word and I'll turn to your side. Then I'll decrypt all the fallen to fight for you."

"...... thank you, Wanda. Now Sizemore... will you dig that booping evacuation tunnel already!!"
“Run this same calculation ten times in a row. Go.”
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Urf » Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:38 pm

Dirtamancy and decryption are not directly related. They are sequentially related. I fully anticipate full decryption after Sizemore renders Spacerock radio silent. It's of primary importance to make sure the invisible, watching enemy doesn't note the change in units and capabilities of GK.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Trotsky » Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:43 pm

ManaCaster wrote:
Trotsky wrote:I did not see this suggestion yet during my quick read-through of this thread, but what if Parson wants to try and decrypt the city itself? It might explain why Sizemore is needed.

What do you mean by decrypt the city? Do you mean some more efficient form of rebuilding it, or do you mean animating it? I doubt the former would work, and the Dollamancer would be a better choice for the latter.


I would assume allow him to rebuild it more efficiently. I mean, his answer to Gobwin nob was to uncroak a frickin' volcano, why not decrypt a city and see if you can get the production without any of the costs. Who knows, maybe doing so will let them pick up wherever the city was on its last production. It is also possible that there is a third option we have not considered.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:14 pm

arbo wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:From the sound of things, the summoning spell wouldn't allow Parson to start a new side unless it served Stanley's interests.


"Maggie, listen to me. I will not disband. I'm doing this for the Tool. Because now I know... Charlie is after me. He doesn't care about anyone else. And it's gonna get worse. He is not gonna stop. He will destroy everything that stands in his way. Gobwin Knob if he has to. Stanley. Anyone. I am a threat to any side I am on. I have to start my own side."

"Lord Hamster, just say the word and I'll turn to your side. Then I'll decrypt all the fallen to fight for you."

"...... thank you, Wanda. Now Sizemore... will you dig that booping evacuation tunnel already!!"

As I said before in the quoted post, he could make the case under many circumstances, but not under this one. Since Gobwin Knob's current capital is Spacerock, creating his own side right now would mean destroying Gobwin Knob the Side. The only way he could justify that is if Stanley is about to fall without an heir. If Parson is going to split off the side, he's going to have to wait until the capital is switched back, or until he can go to a different one.

Urf wrote:Dirtamancy and decryption are not directly related. They are sequentially related. I fully anticipate full decryption after Sizemore renders Spacerock radio silent. It's of primary importance to make sure the invisible, watching enemy doesn't note the change in units and capabilities of GK.

I agree with the first point, but not with the second. Why would waiting until after Spacerock is radio silent change anything? Any such eyes would have already observed the number of intact bodies. You can infer the number of decrypted from that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Urf » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:22 pm

Because once a firewall is up, Jack can be raised and instructed to veil the entire hex with an illusion. You need to misdirect before you can set a trap. If a firewall is not raised before Jack is, any foolamancy will be seen and anticipated.

Before a firewall, it's fish in a barrel. After a firewall, it's a Schrodinger Catbox.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:40 pm

Urf wrote:Because once a firewall is up, Jack can be raised and instructed to veil the entire hex with an illusion. You need to misdirect before you can set a trap. If a firewall is not raised before Jack is, any foolamancy will be seen and anticipated.

Before a firewall, it's fish in a barrel. After a firewall, it's a Schrodinger Catbox.

This still doesn't explain what good holding off decryption does. They're going to know/suspect Jack exists regardless. Besides, Archons can see right through Foolamancy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Whispri » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:40 pm

Nygma wrote:
Whispri wrote:
Nygma wrote:The problem with the Starting a New Side theory is that the same obstacles are there as before - they're off-turn and there's still not a complete absence of other units in the area. They need to do *something* with the corpses before next turn or they forfeit them. No one can move from the city before then except Parson and the casters, and I don't see Parson offing Antium and the other two and the remaining dwagons to fix that problem.

No, but he can order them into the airspace, something he couldn't do before, as they were trapped in the portal chamber by the flames. Also, this time Wanda (the Mistress of the Units in question) is present. They have access to the seat of power too.

Airspace is still one of the city zones, if I understand correctly. So a GK unit in the airspace would prevent Parson claiming the city. They have access to the seat of power, but since none of them are the Overlord of the side, it doesn't do them much good.

Wanda might be able to command the decrypted to turn. The "popped again" do have free will, though, according to Ansom, and we do see Antium disregard orders to be silent when Duty compels him. But even if possible it doesn't account for why he needs to know if Sizemore has juice.

I don't see Parson spinning off his own side yet. The summon spell still compels loyalty to Stanley, and as simply a way to switch the capital back, it seems a waste from a plot point of view. I imagine Rob will end up using the fact that Gobwin Knob's capital is now on the front lines to great advantage (story-wise. Gobwin Knob's benefit-wise, probably not so much.)

The airspace isn't part of the Garrison though, that could make all the difference. As for the seat of power, we don't actually know what advantages sitting in it confers or who can benefit from doing so. It should also be noted, that there is an heir designate at hand to found the Side. Alright so she isn't heir of Gobwin Knob, but she isn't just any old Barbarian either.

There's a very good case for saying that duty requires the formation of a new Side. Spares the Overlord the risk of twelve Turns in the field for one thing. Never mind that the closest friendly City to Spacerock has already been sacked. As for Sizemore, leaving aside the City shrinking trick I mentioned earlier, the need to repair the City alone is reason enough to ask of his juice.

Too early for Parson to found a Side? I quite agree. But Wanda? A different story me'thinks. As for the problem with Capital location, the trouble is that Stanley will have to fly to the Capital if they don't move the Capital to him. Also, they have enemies on all Sides, the frontlines are everywhere. Their real enemy, Charlie, is actually closer to Gobwin Knob than to Spacerock by quite a distance.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:39 pm

Whispri wrote:There's a very good case for saying that duty requires the formation of a new Side. Spares the Overlord the risk of twelve Turns in the field for one thing. Never mind that the closest friendly City to Spacerock has already been sacked.

And will disband every Gobwin Knob field unit and leave every single city except for Gobwin Knob and Spacerock vulnerable until reclaimed. No, Gobwin Knob is not going to be creating a new side this turn. And if it did, I still don't see how it would qualify as genius. When Parson says he's planning a genius move, I would expect something game breaking, something Erfworlder's wouldn't think possible.

I do agree that splitting the side would be a good idea for all sorts of reasons, but it should not happen at the site of it's current capital, because that would destroy the existing side. Just let Wanda have Unaroyal for now, and give Parson Spacerock after the capital is switched back, or maybe even have him come over and claim Gobwin Knob. I mean, there's no rule saying two tightly allied sides can't have both rulers at the same capital, right?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby BakaGrappler » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:31 pm

And everyone is so full of their own crazy ideas (Trick Charlie! Make his own side! Undust Sylvia!) that they fail to see the very conventional, Occom's Razor style, strategy that I keep describing. Haggar units in the region. They were never in the city, they never retreated from the city. 100 Rockers in the area that Parson KNOWS are there. Haggar has never seen decryption, and who could resist a capitol site with so few defenders?

Bury the dead in very shallow dirt (Sizemore's Dirtamancy), place the remaining defenders in a place to lure Haggar into the field of the buried dead, Mass Decrypt at the command, and have 300 soldiers and 5 warlords ambush the now leaderless Haggar units, netting another 100 free units. Mass slaughter, little loss, element of surprise, realistic strategy, and no excitable leaps of logic, and requires the use of Dirtamancy BEFORE Decryption.

Is it because my strategy holds no enormous gaping holes of logic or unrealism that people are not bothering to read or comment on it?
Hey, have you read Shadows of the Evergreen? It's my ErfFic. People say it's pretty good over here, and who am I to argue? Check it out, and then tell me what you think of my hack writing.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:39 pm

It's because gaining 100 units isn't particularly all that interesting or worth all that effort.....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Lilwik » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:53 pm

BakaGrappler wrote:Is it because my strategy holds no enormous gaping holes of logic or unrealism that people are not bothering to read or comment on it?
I agree that it's the most likely theory that we've seen so far. At least setting up a trap or traps using delayed decryption and Dirtamancy seems like the only thing Parson could be thinking, and that only makes sense if Parson expects to be attacked before the croaked depop. The only doubt I have is the idea that Haggar is going to be the one to attack, since Haggar has been greatly weakened in the area and Haggar's home defenses are currently weak so they must be wanting to pull back with as few engagements as possible. If they were going to try to take Spacerock now it would only be for the shmuckers that they would get for razing it, they would have no way to hold it, and it doesn't look like it's currently worth many shmuckers.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby BakaGrappler » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:03 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:It's because gaining 100 units isn't particularly all that interesting or worth all that effort.....


It is interesting and worth the effort when it increases the size of the military presence in your capitol city by 30% in 20 minutes time. Simple, elegant, effective, productive, and a very Parson/SunTzu thing to do. Take your enemy's resources, and make them your own military strength.


@Lilwik
The Croaked will depop at the end of Jetstone's turn the next day (as I recall the system). This was established in Book 1, and is the reason why corpses last long enough to be Uncroaked. The corpses will last long enough for a tactic like this to succeed, and still be around to Decrypt in case it doesn't. Parson should be aware it is still not Gobwin Knob's turn yet, so that means there are enemies in their territory who have not ended their turn. Should Gobwin Knob's turn come up, that means there are no enemies in range and Decryption proceeds as normal. No risk, potential reward while there are enemies in their space.

A good leader should always assume their enemy will attack them while they are close enough to do so. And Haggar's original plan was to take Spacerock in the first place. The remaining Warlords may decide it's worth the job to recoup some of their losses. Those rockers don't strike me as the intelligent or peaceful type, anyway. 50/50 chance they don't decide to cut their losses.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:10 pm

A major problem with most of these theories is that they are all fairly conventional. Ambushes are hardly anything new. Parson referred to his idea as being a genius thing, which means that it should be something game breaking.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Zeku » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:32 pm

Anyone who thinks that Wanda is willing to work for Parson, you've been drinking too much forum-flavored Koolaid.

She's only concerned about her own imaginary fate.

Parson is simply a 'tool' to achieve this fate.

She isn't stupid, and can see that Charlie is just as clever as Parson. The pliers are the only overall power difference between them, and she's the one who is holding them. Whoever she chooses to work for will probably win.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Whispri » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:45 pm

ManaCaster wrote:
Whispri wrote:There's a very good case for saying that duty requires the formation of a new Side. Spares the Overlord the risk of twelve Turns in the field for one thing. Never mind that the closest friendly City to Spacerock has already been sacked.

And will disband every Gobwin Knob field unit and leave every single city except for Gobwin Knob and Spacerock vulnerable until reclaimed. No, Gobwin Knob is not going to be creating a new side this turn. And if it did, I still don't see how it would qualify as genius. When Parson says he's planning a genius move, I would expect something game breaking, something Erfworlder's wouldn't think possible.

I do agree that splitting the side would be a good idea for all sorts of reasons, but it should not happen at the site of it's current capital, because that would destroy the existing side. Just let Wanda have Unaroyal for now, and give Parson Spacerock after the capital is switched back, or maybe even have him come over and claim Gobwin Knob. I mean, there's no rule saying two tightly allied sides can't have both rulers at the same capital, right?

None of that's true. It can't be, or else this plan simply could not work as described. As for genius, finding a way around the problem of starting a new Side with Gobwin Knob Units in the City sounds smart enough to me.

BakaGrappler wrote:And everyone is so full of their own crazy ideas (Trick Charlie! Make his own side! Undust Sylvia!) that they fail to see the very conventional, Occom's Razor style, strategy that I keep describing. Haggar units in the region. They were never in the city, they never retreated from the city. 100 Rockers in the area that Parson KNOWS are there. Haggar has never seen decryption, and who could resist a capitol site with so few defenders?

Bury the dead in very shallow dirt (Sizemore's Dirtamancy), place the remaining defenders in a place to lure Haggar into the field of the buried dead, Mass Decrypt at the command, and have 300 soldiers and 5 warlords ambush the now leaderless Haggar units, netting another 100 free units. Mass slaughter, little loss, element of surprise, realistic strategy, and no excitable leaps of logic, and requires the use of Dirtamancy BEFORE Decryption.

Is it because my strategy holds no enormous gaping holes of logic or unrealism that people are not bothering to read or comment on it?

Well like I said earlier, if they're still in range, they're the remnants of a defeated army, plus they haven't been mentioned for ages.

I don't really see what advantage that ambush plan has to just hiding in the dungeon or something tbh.

Zeku wrote:Anyone who thinks that Wanda is willing to work for Parson, you've been drinking too much forum-flavored Koolaid.

She's only concerned about her own imaginary fate.

Parson is simply a 'tool' to achieve this fate.

She isn't stupid, and can see that Charlie is just as clever as Parson. The pliers are the only overall power difference between them, and she's the one who is holding them. Whoever she chooses to work for will probably win.

She doesn't seem to have any problem with working for him at the moment.

Her Fate isn't imaginary. The very first page of Book Zero made that very clear.

And Charlie is merely the reason she no longer has a girlfriend.

You expect her to trust a Carniemancer? A Carniemancer who spawned Olive Branch?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Lilwik » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:04 pm

Zeku wrote:She isn't stupid, and can see that Charlie is just as clever as Parson. The pliers are the only overall power difference between them, and she's the one who is holding them. Whoever she chooses to work for will probably win.
Except that Parson always wins and Charlie always loses. Before Wanda sees that Charlie is just as clever as Parson, she'd better see him win at least one.

Whispri wrote:Her Fate isn't imaginary. The very first page of Book Zero made that very clear.
I think she has demonstrated more than enough Fate already to explain the first page of Book Zero. Everyone runs out of Fate eventually. As far as we know, attuning to the pliers could be the last thing she's Fated to do.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Whispri » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:16 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Whispri wrote:Her Fate isn't imaginary. The very first page of Book Zero made that very clear.
I think she has demonstrated more than enough Fate already to explain the first page of Book Zero. Everyone runs out of Fate eventually. As far as we know, attuning to the pliers could be the last thing she's Fated to do.

Debt paying aside, all she's really done is knock over Faq and bond with an Arkentool. And who else has had to pay anything like as heavily as she for such a prize? Never mind that it renders her Croakamancy obsolete and is inferior to it in at least one respect (that being the lack of dance fighting).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Nygma » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:22 pm

BakaGrappler wrote:And everyone is so full of their own crazy ideas (Trick Charlie! Make his own side! Undust Sylvia!) that they fail to see the very conventional, Occom's Razor style, strategy that I keep describing. Haggar units in the region. They were never in the city, they never retreated from the city. 100 Rockers in the area that Parson KNOWS are there. Haggar has never seen decryption, and who could resist a capitol site with so few defenders?

Bury the dead in very shallow dirt (Sizemore's Dirtamancy), place the remaining defenders in a place to lure Haggar into the field of the buried dead, Mass Decrypt at the command, and have 300 soldiers and 5 warlords ambush the now leaderless Haggar units, netting another 100 free units. Mass slaughter, little loss, element of surprise, realistic strategy, and no excitable leaps of logic, and requires the use of Dirtamancy BEFORE Decryption.

Is it because my strategy holds no enormous gaping holes of logic or unrealism that people are not bothering to read or comment on it?

Who knows? I'm looking forward to the next installment.

However, the last time we saw Haggar's forces, they were retreating.
Just before that, they were being blackmailed into a suicide charge which ended with Prince Sammy being stabbed by half a dozen spears and then beheaded by Ansom.

Last we or Parson knows, Haggar had taken horrific losses and was beating a retreat - and they took off BEFORE the remaining Jetstone forces did (or Faq, for that matter).

Haggar on their own isn't in any shape to execute the treachery they initially planned. They're leaderless and their capitol is undermanned and threatened by Charlie. Having held up their end of the "bargain" with Charlie, they're going to want to get home ASAP. We've also seen no way for them to even know what's happened in the city, except that last they knew, Jetstone was in a good position.

Maybe Charlie would twist their arm again, but Parson has no way of knowing that Charlie is influencing them anyway.

In short, I just don't see how Haggar is a top priority for Parson at the moment, let alone the subject of an elaborate ruse to lure them back and kill them.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Lilwik » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:26 pm

Whispri wrote:And who else has had to pay anything like as heavily as she for such a prize?
When prices are paid in ways other than shmuckers it's hard to compare, but if you consider death to be a high price then think of all the people who Wanda has caused to die in fulfilling her Fate. She has also destroyed two sides which were probably worth something to their rulers.
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