Book 2 – Page 111

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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Nygma » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:28 pm

Whispri wrote: (that being the lack of dance fighting).

Wanda came to Spacerock initially prepared to dance fight.

"Wanda removed her hair helmet and stowed it in the saddlebag. The plan to take the garrison by dance fight had been obviated at least two revisions ago, and the wretched thing itched." Text Update 20
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:29 pm

Whispri wrote:None of that's true. It can't be, or else this plan simply could not work as described. As for genius, finding a way around the problem of starting a new Side with Gobwin Knob Units in the City sounds smart enough to me.

The King was pretty close to the throne at the time, so it would have been easy to make the capital switch.

From the sounds of your speculation, I'm guessing your saying that capitals switch over automatically if the current one falls in a multi-capital side, right? If that was true, then how is it genius? It should be incredibly obvious, even to the simple minded denizens of Erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:27 am

Nygma wrote:The problem with the Starting a New Side theory is that the same obstacles are there as before - they're off-turn and there's still not a complete absence of other units in the area. They need to do *something* with the corpses before next turn or they forfeit them. No one can move from the city before then except Parson and the casters, and I don't see Parson offing Antium and the other two and the remaining dwagons to fix that problem.

To spell out the reasoning of the New Side theory: Faq's situation (Ruler alive, no capital, no cities) when it seized Effbaum was very similar to the situation Stanley would have been in if he had reached Faq after the expected fall of GK, and Stanley described what he would need to do as "founding a new side". Therefore, it is likely that Banhammer technically founded a new side at Effbaum, in spite of Olive in the airspace. Under this hypothesis, Charlie was attempting to mislead Parson that there needed to be no other sides' units in the hex when the restriction is really on the garrison. Further, it is assumed that Parson knows the precise rule, but either didn't care or didn't notice that Charlie was being imprecise.

I'm not sure why everyone is talking about mounting dwagons, though. It seems to me the GK units could just be ordered to walk into the Outer Walls zone.

On the other hand, it may be that a city-less Ruler who seizes a capital is not necessarily starting a new side, but that Stanley wanted to do so as part of escaping the anti-Stanley, anti-GK campaign.


Also, many believe that a multi-capital-site side would suvive losing its capital, but that it would lose its treasury. Seizing GK's treasury doesn't seem to be consistent with Parson's current Duty, but perhaps he could enter a magically binding contract to transfer the funds - though he doesn't have a moneymancer available to make gems.

Whispri wrote:Sudden thought: The whole 'Units in the City' thing... suppose they reduced the City to an Outpost. Aren't they just garrison zones with no outer City?

Yeah, I've just checked the glossary of Book One. A City may be a small Outpost consisting solely of a Garrison. So then, I think Parson wants Sizemore to reduce the size of the City, so that the Gobwin Knob Units can leave the City without having to leave the hex, just by virtue of being outside the Garrison when the deed is done.

Clever!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby BakaGrappler » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:40 am

Nygma wrote:
BakaGrappler wrote:And everyone is so full of their own crazy ideas (Trick Charlie! Make his own side! Undust Sylvia!) that they fail to see the very conventional, Occom's Razor style, strategy that I keep describing. Haggar units in the region. They were never in the city, they never retreated from the city. 100 Rockers in the area that Parson KNOWS are there. Haggar has never seen decryption, and who could resist a capitol site with so few defenders?

Bury the dead in very shallow dirt (Sizemore's Dirtamancy), place the remaining defenders in a place to lure Haggar into the field of the buried dead, Mass Decrypt at the command, and have 300 soldiers and 5 warlords ambush the now leaderless Haggar units, netting another 100 free units. Mass slaughter, little loss, element of surprise, realistic strategy, and no excitable leaps of logic, and requires the use of Dirtamancy BEFORE Decryption.

Is it because my strategy holds no enormous gaping holes of logic or unrealism that people are not bothering to read or comment on it?

Who knows? I'm looking forward to the next installment.

However, the last time we saw Haggar's forces, they were retreating.
Just before that, they were being blackmailed into a suicide charge which ended with Prince Sammy being stabbed by half a dozen spears and then beheaded by Ansom.

Last we or Parson knows, Haggar had taken horrific losses and was beating a retreat - and they took off BEFORE the remaining Jetstone forces did (or Faq, for that matter).

Haggar on their own isn't in any shape to execute the treachery they initially planned. They're leaderless and their capitol is undermanned and threatened by Charlie. Having held up their end of the "bargain" with Charlie, they're going to want to get home ASAP. We've also seen no way for them to even know what's happened in the city, except that last they knew, Jetstone was in a good position.

Maybe Charlie would twist their arm again, but Parson has no way of knowing that Charlie is influencing them anyway.

In short, I just don't see how Haggar is a top priority for Parson at the moment, let alone the subject of an elaborate ruse to lure them back and kill them.



Thank you for that link. Because of that I was able to notice that there were comparatively few corpses on the ground for the skirmish, which means there may be far more Haggar troops than 100 remaining. I also noticed that the Haggar troops did not leave the corpse of Sammy Haggar on the ground, but took it and his decapitated head with them as they fled the hex. Meaning that it is a nice and non-obvious way of getting Sammy back into the story again should his troops carry his body into Spacerock with them and they are all Decrypted as a result.

Also, it is NOT the last we see of the Haggar troops. In the very next page, you can see the new leader of the Haggar troops glowering meanly next to Tramennis. That is not the face of a defeated leader. And by looking at the colorations of the units, you can see the Haggar troops hanging around mingled with Jetstone's for a while, and that they were absent in the Heavy Led strike across the river. Which means Haggar still has a sizable number of troops which still most likely have some fight left in them.

Look, Haggar thought it was likely that they could take Spacerock after the battle with just those 200 troops. That was their plan from the beginning. What exactly has changed?

And Parson doesn't need to lure anyone in for this to be a sound tactical decision. If someone is going to attack the GK held Spacerock this turn, they'll do it anyway. By hiding in the dungeon, Parson would be fighting through conventional means, which means the tactical pre-programming Warlords get on Popping would be in effect. Conventional fighting would cost Parson more troops than such a surprise attack and would give enemies the chance to gauge the strength of his forces before entering. A Decryption Grave ambush not only gives a surprise attack, but breaks any conventional tactics the Warlords would be using, surround them thus leaving no room for retreat, and send a very sound message to any other forces in the region. Set foot into my house, and don't expect to leave.

Besides, Parson has no idea if Jetstone's retreat from the city is not just a rallying measure to regroup and reclaim the city after the inferno had finished Parson off. A tactician hedges his bets and prepares countermeasures against all odds. Odds are, Parson is not going to be left alone long enough to bring in reinforcements and settle his defenses. So prepare a measure against that! And conventional causality of story telling dictates that such a trap WILL be sprung instead of going to waste, and Haggar are the only ones in the region left to fall for it, since Charlie doesn't have the forces marshaled to overwhelm a city at this point in the region, and Jetstone is falling back to the original capitol city.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:38 am

We're kind of getting near the end of this chapter, aren't we? Parson's "genius" move being a capital transfer or a trap for sides that are unlikely to attack again until next chapter would be kinda anticlimactic, wouldn't it?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby LordAcme » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:49 am

BakaGrappler wrote:And everyone is so full of their own crazy ideas (Trick Charlie! Make his own side! Undust Sylvia!) that they fail to see the very conventional, Occom's Razor style, strategy that I keep describing. Haggar units in the region. They were never in the city, they never retreated from the city. 100 Rockers in the area that Parson KNOWS are there. Haggar has never seen decryption, and who could resist a capitol site with so few defenders?

Bury the dead in very shallow dirt (Sizemore's Dirtamancy), place the remaining defenders in a place to lure Haggar into the field of the buried dead, Mass Decrypt at the command, and have 300 soldiers and 5 warlords ambush the now leaderless Haggar units, netting another 100 free units. Mass slaughter, little loss, element of surprise, realistic strategy, and no excitable leaps of logic, and requires the use of Dirtamancy BEFORE Decryption.

Is it because my strategy holds no enormous gaping holes of logic or unrealism that people are not bothering to read or comment on it?


No, it's because your idea doesn't support the leaps of imagination over the gaping holes of plausibility in the ideas being proposed and debated. We already know (I posted it myself) and have had confirmed in an update that the summoning spell might prevent Parson from starting a new side or kill him if he tries. That makes the New Side theory the worst possible option for Parson and one he'd try only in the most dire circumstances (also confirmed in the same update, he literally was staring death in the face before he considered it). Yet it's still being debated weeks later as a possible "genius plan".

But hey, that's nothing compared to the Active vs Passive Fate debate. I was wishing for a Reddit-style UI so that particular debate could go off to a corner by itself and let the rest of us talk about something else for a change.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby gazes_also » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:16 am

I'm trying to figure out who Parson would consider the most direct threat in the next turn.

Charlie has been jerking him around personally with the scroll, the carnies and the eyebook hacking; but would he really expect him to directly attack with a force of Archons. We know such a force exists from Jillian but Parson has no reason to suspect it.

Jetstone have withdrawn and seem unlike to counterattack as re-establishing the new capital is their priority.

Jillian's Faq aerial force left Spacerock without fighting, showed up at the bridge, smashed the column and seized Ansom with little or no loses and disappeared. They have been unpredictable, and are the most mobile and the most formidable force still around.

Haggar is in the area and would still be considered a threat so rebuilding the fortifications would discourage them.

The idea of creating an ambush to draw in and trap an attacking force with the hidden decrypted has one major flaw I can see. Parson doesn't know how strong the opposition might be, he might set a mouse trap and catch a tiger.

Is it possible his genius idea is offensive and not defensive? The original objective was to destroy the Jetstone side. If Parson has some way to pursue and eliminate the Jetstone column including Tremmenis then he could justify the cost to Stanley since he did, in fact, succeed in the objective.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby YRM_DM » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:47 pm

Charlie does have a large force of archons within striking distance, because when he discussed hitting the land forces with Jillian after she changed plans on him, he said the help couldn't come from him, and she gave him reasons why it'd be beneficial to him. But the implication was that he "could" help but didn't because he didn't want Parson knowing he was working actively against Parson.

Now that Parson knows that, the biggest threat is Charlie, and whomever he allies with.

Next book could very well be Jillian, Transylvito, Charlie, and Jetstone all hitting the new capital. Or trying to hit Stanley when he tries to move up to the new capital.

I seriously hope that a good... rock solid company takes this book and turns it into a TBS game.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:19 pm

YRM_DM wrote:Jillian, Transylvito, Charlie, and Jetstone all hitting the new capital. Or trying to hit Stanley when he tries to move up to the new capital.

Jillian's busy returning home. She could change her mind, but I suspect that would go against Fate. Ansom and Vinny need to finally have that talk, Ansom needs to "save" Jillian one way or the other, and of course, we've got a royal heir popping in about 6 turns. If Jillian returns to the battle, then that probably means she's fated to die so that her son/daughter can take over.

As for Transvylto, they would love to help Jetstone, but they have already taken great pains to make this a proxy war, since King Don's smart enough not to attack an unknown power like Gobwin Knob directly. They will probably continue to do stuff from behind the scenes for now.

It'll probably just be the latter two for now.

YRM_DM wrote:I seriously hope that a good... rock solid company takes this book and turns it into a TBS game.

It'd have to be a completely different kind of game then the one Parson's playing. Even massively simplified, Erfworld would just be too complicated to make into a real game.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby gazes_also » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:43 pm

YRM_DM wrote:Charlie does have a large force of archons within striking distance, because when he discussed hitting the land forces with Jillian after she changed plans on him, he said the help couldn't come from him, and she gave him reasons why it'd be beneficial to him. But the implication was that he "could" help but didn't because he didn't want Parson knowing he was working actively against Parson.

Now that Parson knows that, the biggest threat is Charlie, and whomever he allies with.



Parson is aware of Charlie interfering personally with him, indirectly trying to affect the outcome. Whether he would make the leap to expecting Charlie to directly launch an open attack with his own forces is questionable.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Lilwik » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:04 pm

LordAcme wrote:But hey, that's nothing compared to the Active vs Passive Fate debate.
But which side of that debate had the gaping holes of plausibility in your opinion? I'm not trying to start that debate up again, but it seems unfair for you to say a thing like that without clarifying.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Urf » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:19 pm

Is there a way to alter the terrain type of a hex in a such a way that creates endless Night?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Lilwik » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:31 pm

Urf wrote:Is there a way to alter the terrain type of a hex in a such a way that creates endless Night?
I highly doubt it! Endless night would mean no more turns, which would mean everyone would be trapped there forever with no move and no need for upkeep. Even with being trapped endless night would probably be better than endless war, so if such a thing could be done there would probably be a large amount of it. It seems like the sort of thing Faq would have done.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Urf » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:58 pm

I'm thinking of ways to render Spacerock completely inaccessible, and therefore impenetrable. Night is one way of doing that.

Spinning out from my Schrodinger's Cat idea, I was mostly thinking of somehow rendering the entire hex unto a "pocket dimension" by altering the way Portals or turns work.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Whispri » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:49 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Whispri wrote:And who else has had to pay anything like as heavily as she for such a prize?
When prices are paid in ways other than shmuckers it's hard to compare, but if you consider death to be a high price then think of all the people who Wanda has caused to die in fulfilling her Fate. She has also destroyed two sides which were probably worth something to their rulers.

Nothing that happened before she switched away from Haffaton counts, as that was just price paying and moving on to the next stage. So yeah, losing her family and Side to machinations of their most hateful enemy Delphie Temple? Earning a Erfwide reputation as Haffaton's sword? All part of the price. Knocking Haffaton over? Just the next stage of the journey. Faq's fall could easily be the same deal. Not that it really matters, as nothing she's known to have done since she joined Faq is on the scale of the astronomical price she payed just to get there.

Nygma wrote:Wanda came to Spacerock initially prepared to dance fight.

"Wanda removed her hair helmet and stowed it in the saddlebag. The plan to take the garrison by dance fight had been obviated at least two revisions ago, and the wretched thing itched." Text Update 20

That she did. Point is, Uncroaked soldiers could Dance Fight while she led them. Decrypted? Not so much.

ManaCaster wrote:The King was pretty close to the throne at the time, so it would have been easy to make the capital switch.

From the sounds of your speculation, I'm guessing your saying that capitals switch over automatically if the current one falls in a multi-capital side, right? If that was true, then how is it genius? It should be incredibly obvious, even to the simple minded denizens of Erfworld.

a) He was at the top of the Tower, the throne room is somewhere on ground level. b) There is no mention of changing the Capital at any point in that plan.

He'd be turning a phyrric victory into something more beneficial.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:57 pm

Whispri wrote:He'd be turning a phyrric victory into something more beneficial.

You could say the same thing about just plain decrypting the corpses, and that isn't genius. This theory hardly qualifies as game breaking in my book, but we'll see.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Lilwik » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:12 pm

Whispri wrote:So yeah, losing her family and Side to machinations of their most hateful enemy Delphie Temple?
I guess that is meant ironically, but it should probably still be highlighted for clarity that Delphie's plan wasn't actually the cause of Goodminton's destruction. Delphie's plan came within an inch of saving Goodminton from an otherwise dire situation. They had the deal in writing on Overlord Firebaugh's desk and all they had to do was agree to it, and that was where Delphie's machinations lead; the rest of it was taken out of her hands.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ruleno2 » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:31 pm

gazes_also wrote:Is it possible his genius idea is offensive and not defensive? The original objective was to destroy the Jetstone side. If Parson has some way to pursue and eliminate the Jetstone column including Tremmenis then he could justify the cost to Stanley since he did, in fact, succeed in the objective.


Whispri wrote:Sudden thought: The whole 'Units in the City' thing... suppose they reduced the City to an Outpost. Aren't they just garrison zones with no outer City?

Yeah, I've just checked the glossary of Book One. A City may be a small Outpost consisting solely of a Garrison. So then, I think Parson wants Sizemore to reduce the size of the City, so that the Gobwin Knob Units can leave the City without having to leave the hex, just by virtue of being outside the Garrison when the deed is done.


I'm a little confused about distances here, in particular how far Jetstone's and Haggar's forces are from the city (Haggar was supposedly half a turn away?), but if either is only one hex adjacent to Spacerock this city-shrinking move may do the trick for living units. The dead may be freely moved out of the city (dumped over the walls, pushed through a hole in Sizemore's wall or flung from a newly-made catapult - making it a multi-hex move) which may allow Parson to destroy the remainder of Jetstone or Haggar this turn. This passes the dirtamancy test (need Sizemore to modify city / build catapult), decryption test (hold off on mass-decrypt until the movement exploit can be used. Note this may not work if Wanda is restricted to only decrypting units in her hex, even if they're arms-length away), and it's a bold-enough move to count as "genius" since it could potentially double Parson's forces before his turn, and removes Jetstone as a threat. (Still not so bold an idea that it really changes anything story-wise, but it's a good enough exploit I suppose).

The trap plan is an extension of this, but relies on Haggar making a bad strategic call by blindly attacking the city, so I don't see it happening.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby BakaGrappler » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:20 pm

ruleno2 wrote:The trap plan is an extension of this, but relies on Haggar making a bad strategic call by blindly attacking the city, so I don't see it happening.


Which is where the shallow graves and Sizemore's juice come into play. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Haggar's forces decide to send in a scout to check the layout and damage to the military still in the city. I mean, they know Gobwin Knob took Spacerock, and that Jetstone has been completely repulsed. They know there won't be many units left in the place after an inferno. They also know that a capitol site is probably very valuable and worth having. So the scout goes in, just to see what is what, and sees that all that remains is half a stack of infantry, a worn out Dirtamancer, and the tubby Heavy of a Chief Warlord, with less than half a dozen injured Red Dwagons. Ooooh, that's a windfall if ever one has seen one, and a chance to pay GK back for Sammy!

Parson would not have to lure anyone in. The mere lack of strong military presence would draw Haggar into a meatgrinder. And if no one shows, hey, no skin off Parson's nose. No news is good news, right?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:22 pm

ruleno2 wrote:This passes the dirtamancy test (need Sizemore to modify city / build catapult), decryption test (hold off on mass-decrypt until the movement exploit can be used. Note this may not work if Wanda is restricted to only decrypting units in her hex, even if they're arms-length away), and it's a bold-enough move to count as "genius" since it could potentially double Parson's forces before his turn, and removes Jetstone as a threat. (Still not so bold an idea that it really changes anything story-wise, but it's a good enough exploit I suppose).

The trap plan is an extension of this, but relies on Haggar making a bad strategic call by blindly attacking the city, so I don't see it happening.

I'd disagree about passing the "genius" test, but that's just my opinion. There is a rather more meta test it doesn't pass. This chapter is nearing its end, right? For reasons of drama, climax, and pacing, any idea that involves significant combat isn't going to happen.
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