Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:28 pm

ftl wrote:The sun moves forward across the sky, rising at dawn and setting when everyone's turn is over.
You've answered you own question, but perhaps I can elaborate on it slightly. It's quite a coincidence that the sun sets at the end of the last person's turn. Of course it's easy to ignore a little thing like the sun when you're in the middle of a war, but imagine you're sitting on your deck watching the sun cross the sky. How exactly do you picture it moving so that it sets just when the last side ends its turn? If they end their turn early, that's easy: it immediately rushes to the horizon and sets, but if the side just sits there watching the sun, then what? Is it natural Predictamancy that it knows when you'll choose to end your turn and times itself perfectly with that?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lipkin » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:55 pm

If the side does nothing on it's turn but watch the sun, the sun will immediately set. The time that it takes to perform an action doesn't matter, just the order.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Rizban » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:12 pm

0beron wrote:On that topic, I'm still amazed/intrigued that the side can continue with Olive as a Captive.
I think that this is the SINGLE biggest and best reveal in this entire prequel so far, at least as far as tactics go. Knowing this, I would focus the majority of military units and training on expert strike forces dedicated to capturing enemy rulers and eliminating all heirs. If you hold the ruler of a side captive and eliminate all heirs, then you "own" that side. Contact the CWL and lay out terms, "Do as we say, or your side ends." You force alliances, throw THEIR troops that THEY pay for into the enemies. There are endless numbers of tactics I can conceive on using this one thing. Frankly, if Parson doesn't know this, he should.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lipkin » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:54 pm

Rizban wrote:
0beron wrote:On that topic, I'm still amazed/intrigued that the side can continue with Olive as a Captive.
I think that this is the SINGLE biggest and best reveal in this entire prequel so far, at least as far as tactics go. Knowing this, I would focus the majority of military units and training on expert strike forces dedicated to capturing enemy rulers and eliminating all heirs. If you hold the ruler of a side captive and eliminate all heirs, then you "own" that side. Contact the CWL and lay out terms, "Do as we say, or your side ends." You force alliances, throw THEIR troops that THEY pay for into the enemies. There are endless numbers of tactics I can conceive on using this one thing. Frankly, if Parson doesn't know this, he should.

Alternatively Charlie could capture Stanley, instead of croak him, like some are fearing.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby ftl » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:03 am

Lilwik wrote:Is it natural Predictamancy that it knows when you'll choose to end your turn and times itself perfectly with that?


Natural predictamancy seems like it would fit in quite well there - it's a reasonable answer and one which gives a very Erf-y resolution to the question. It doesn't have direct textual support, but to me it seems like a better guess than any other we have at the moment.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:06 am

ftl wrote:Natural predictamancy seems like it would fit in quite well there - it's a reasonable answer and one which gives a very Erf-y resolution to the question.
It doesn't seem reasonable to me. How can even Predictamancy predict that you will end your turn when the sun sets? What if I think best while watching the sun set and decide that instead of ending my turn I'll give some new orders. There's no force in Erfworld that we've ever heard of that could compel me to end my turn at the moment the sun goes down. This isn't a situation where Fate can step in and drop a beam on my head to make me end my turn. If a chief warlord were really fated to end his turn every day when the sun went down, then Fate would be very, very easy to defy.

ftl wrote:It doesn't have direct textual support, but to me it seems like a better guess than any other we have at the moment.
I'd really like to know why you like that mind-bendingly strange and complicated idea more than the obvious and simple idea that turns have time limits.

It is like you are taking a test in school and there is a clock on the wall and you are told the test will end at 2 o'clock. Then you are told that you have as much time to complete the test as you want, and the test only ends at 2 o'clock because whatever time you choose to finish the test will be 2 o'clock, and even the clock on the wall will say 2 o'clock at that time. And yet the clock keeps ticking toward 2 as though none of those weird time rules were real and you really have less than an hour left to finish the test. This kind of thing is surreal and far from a likely description of how turns work in Erfworld.

If Erfworld turns worked on surreal craziness like that, surely we'd have seen a Klog from Parson about it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Rizban » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:16 am

Lipkin wrote:
Rizban wrote:
0beron wrote:On that topic, I'm still amazed/intrigued that the side can continue with Olive as a Captive.
I think that this is the SINGLE biggest and best reveal in this entire prequel so far, at least as far as tactics go. Knowing this, I would focus the majority of military units and training on expert strike forces dedicated to capturing enemy rulers and eliminating all heirs. If you hold the ruler of a side captive and eliminate all heirs, then you "own" that side. Contact the CWL and lay out terms, "Do as we say, or your side ends." You force alliances, throw THEIR troops that THEY pay for into the enemies. There are endless numbers of tactics I can conceive on using this one thing. Frankly, if Parson doesn't know this, he should.

Alternatively Charlie could capture Stanley, instead of croak him, like some are fearing.
And what would happen then? They're in a capital site with someone who can found a new side. I don't think Charlie is stupid enough to think that capturing Stanley right now would give him that much of an advantage over Parson when compared to the potential losses he would take in both troops and reputation to do so.


As to the whole turns and time limits thing, the conversation is getting ever more ridiculous than it was to begin with. It's been stated that time flows differently in each hex. Therefore, there is no need whatsoever for time limits on turns or anything else. The sun sets when it sets and neither sooner nor later than that, and the sun does not set until the last turn in the initiative is ended. What happens in each hex has no bearing on what happens in any other hex unless there is direct, intentional action taken between the two. Time is dynamic, and there is no reason that it "must" flow "logically" across all hexes.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby ftl » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:54 am

Lilwik wrote:I'd really like to know why you like that mind-bendingly strange and complicated idea more than the obvious and simple idea that turns have time limits.


Because turns having time limits would have major strategic implications, none of which we've seen mentioned.

It would also be inconsistent with time passing differently between hexes. If I remember right, from the summer update where time was discussed, a scout could go out of hex, spend all its move scouting, and come back to the same hex; to occupants of that hex, it would seem like it just left and came back, to the scout it would have taken all day.

To quote sizemore from that update:

Only the order of our actions is important. Time isn't.


Also, from the same update:

"Hooooly crap," said Parson, rubbing his forehead. "No wonder I never see a clock around here.


If time were important - if there were a time limit for how long you had to do things, and if it ran out then things would be left unfinished and your turn would end against your will! - there would be clocks! Or at least Parson would think he needed them.


If Erfworld turns worked on surreal craziness like that, surely we'd have seen a Klog from Parson about it.


We wouldn't, because in practice, it plays out as "you have as much time each turn to do everything you want, and there's no point in stalling 'cause you're the only one that would notice anyway." It's got no strategic implications. It's like a turn-based game - how much time does a player have to "take a turn" in a turn-based game? Exactly one turn, and in-game that one turn is going to take one day, no matter how long or how little IRL time you spend on it.

Besides, we have had the update about time. It's this one http://www.erfworld.com/2009/09/summer-updates-029/ . The whole thing points to the fact that time doesn't matter; only the order of events matters. First you do one thing, then you do another, then you do another, and nobody keeps track of whether those things take an hour or a minute or six hours, because that depends on what hex you're observing it from and what you're doing and isn't even relevant, only the order of events is actually game-relevant.

It is like you are taking a test in school and there is a clock on the wall and you are told the test will end at 2 o'clock. Then you are told that you have as much time to complete the test as you want, and the test only ends at 2 o'clock because whatever time you choose to finish the test will be 2 o'clock, and even the clock on the wall will say 2 o'clock at that time. And yet the clock keeps ticking toward 2 as though none of those weird time rules were real and you really have less than an hour left to finish the test. This kind of thing is surreal and far from a likely description of how turns work in Erfworld.


You've got causality backwards. It's like you are taking a test in school, and you know that the moment you decide to put your pen down, that will be 2 o-clock. You have as much time as you want because time doesn't matter; only the sequence of events matters. If finishing the test is something you are able to do this turn, then time will move appropriately slowly or fast or whatever so that the point at which you put down your pen will be 2.

As a sidenote, if you leave the testing room, the time might jump back to noon (in the other room you went to), and if you spend six hours in a that other room doing stuff, when you come back to the test it'll look like only a few minutes had passed there. Because, to end with the same quote from sizemore:

You're going to do what you're going to do on your turn. Only the order of our actions is important. Time isn't.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Althernai » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:32 am

It's pretty confusing -- from the same update, I would conclude that there is a time limit:

Time itself was one thing they talked about, since Parson noted the moving shadows as the sun moved across the sky. Erfworlders, Parson found, understood days, hours, minutes and seconds. A second was "one-thousand-one." A minute was sixty of those. An hour was sixty minutes, and a day was twenty-four hours.


So it seems that if you just stood there and said "one-thousand-one" 86400 times, that would necessarily take you from one day to the next and the turn must have ended in the meantime since it's not anyone's turn at night.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:33 am

ftl wrote:If time were important - if there were a time limit for how long you had to do things, and if it ran out then things would be left unfinished and your turn would end against your will! - there would be clocks! Or at least Parson would think he needed them.
That's a really good point. It's hard to get around that, except that maybe the time limit doesn't matter to anyone because they have hours to make their moves every turn. Imagine timed game of Chess where you have a strict limit of six hours for every move. People wouldn't feel pressed for time. Even so, in Erfworld we see people doing a large amount in a single turn and even if their time limit were measured in hours it seems like it would probably be an issue in some cases.

If there really were no clocks then I would probably just assume that each side does take as long as it chooses for each turn, but that just can't be true because we have a clock: the sun. We know the sun moves through the sky and that means that time is really passing and actually matters, even if Sizemore says it doesn't matter. There are just no options; all of the turns for the day need to be done by sunset, and the sun is inevitably moving toward sunset. Unless the sun does some weird acrobatics in the sky, time matters. Erfworld has a strict tempo: one turn every day. If you want to spend more than a day thinking about what you'll do with your turn, then you just have to wish you didn't live in Erfworld because Erfworld doesn't put up with players who are that slow.

Faced with that fact, I'm forced to conclude that the only reason Erfworlders and even Parson don't care about time is because the time limit for each turn is enormously generous, far more than they need for anything and everything they might do, so they don't even consider it a resource worth conserving. This is surely helped by the strangeness of time when moving between hexes, so that the time that units spend traveling doesn't count toward the time limit for their side.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:35 am

ftl wrote:How would time move strangely in a single hex?

A day in a single hex would take exactly as long as it takes you and anyone else in the battlespace to do all the actions they're going to take. Somebody staying in a single hex wouldn't notice anything strange: the sun moves forward across the sky, rising at dawn and setting when everyone's turn is over.

Except that from the same text update that tells us time is relative in different hexes, we also know that a day is 24 hours which are made up of 60 minutes which are made up of 60 seconds. We also know that turns begin at dawn unless you're in battlespace with a side with an earlier turn order, in which case theirs does, and yours doesn't start till theirs ends. We also know that there is no movement or combat at night.

So all in all, that means that you really only have ~16 hours to plan and do everything you want to do. So yeah, there is a time limit of sorts, though it is quite a large time limit. Also, consider for a moment when Firebaugh made the offer to Frenemy and Quisling about giving the schmuckers to whoever didn't break their alliance first. It bought them several TURNS of time before they figured out to make an offer with each other to split the amount between themselves automatically (well, technically they never did, but presumably they would have eventually). This indicates that the rulers were thinking about the problem, but for some reason, despite not having come up with a solution, they ended turn. There really isn't much reason for this besides them running out of time before they had to end turn. The other possibility is that they know through some mechanic of Erfworld, that if they can't come up with a solution in X hours, they need to keep thinking about it, but know that they won't come up with anything till next turn, basically something along the lines of their minds refreshing.

Something similar may be the reason that Wanda's torture of Jillian lasted a couple dozen turns or so. Maybe she could have spent a few thousand hours torturing her in one turn, but there is only one 'roll' made per turn, and after a certain point, she won't break until next turn.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:21 am

Lipkin wrote:
Rizban wrote:
0beron wrote:On that topic, I'm still amazed/intrigued that the side can continue with Olive as a Captive.
I think that this is the SINGLE biggest and best reveal in this entire prequel so far, at least as far as tactics go. Knowing this, I would focus the majority of military units and training on expert strike forces dedicated to capturing enemy rulers and eliminating all heirs. If you hold the ruler of a side captive and eliminate all heirs, then you "own" that side. Contact the CWL and lay out terms, "Do as we say, or your side ends." You force alliances, throw THEIR troops that THEY pay for into the enemies. There are endless numbers of tactics I can conceive on using this one thing. Frankly, if Parson doesn't know this, he should.

Alternatively Charlie could capture Stanley, instead of croak him, like some are fearing.


Do tell, how many of his precious archons do you think that Charlie would be willing to have their heads smashed in by the arkenhammer for a shot at capturing Stanley alive?

Even the fat king of Jetstone that never did much with his life took out quite a few archons before being shot down himself (sure he had a bunch of custom items, but Stanley has the Arkenhammer).

Stanley is a veteran warrior of multiple battles. He excells at the frontline and not even Vinny "I conquer cities by myself" was a match for him.

Capturing warlords alive is far from easy in Erfworld. You basically need another warlord of same level or higher to sucessfully restrain them. And I don't think there's anything or anyone in Erfworld right now that could take on Stanley+Arkenhammer on a direct 1x1 confrontation.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Zeku » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:37 am

Sides are limited by move and juice, not by anything else. Time is divided into turns, not hours or any other discreet unit.


Capturing a side's ruler and using that as a slave faction forever doesn't sound like a real exploit.

We don't know what type of stuff a ruler has to do every turn to maintain the side (like visit buildings in a city to make it work efficiently)

Without a ruler free to do whatever it wants, the side probably goes bankrupt or otherwise dissolves pretty quickly.

You're also forgetting Duty which is no longer applicable once it's clear that a Ruler is no longer serving the side's interests.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby 0beron » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:58 am

Zeku wrote:Capturing a side's ruler and using that as a slave faction forever doesn't sound like a real exploit.
We don't know what type of stuff a ruler has to do every turn to maintain the side (like visit buildings in a city to make it work efficiently)
Presumably nothing, that's what Warlords are for with city supervision, otherwise Stanley would do it himself instead of Parson.
Zeku wrote:You're also forgetting Duty which is no longer applicable once it's clear that a Ruler is no longer serving the side's interests.
And you're forgetting that only Command units have Duty, so gaining a "slave side" means you would still have plenty of infantry at your disposal. And even units with Duty might be persuaded that this arrangement really is for the good of the side.

So all things considered...is it a GREAT tactic? Probably not, given how hard it is to get a Ruler in the first place. But if you have an effective way to pull it off, there are definitely some benefits.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Zeku » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:03 am

Presumably nothing, that's what Warlords are for with city supervision, otherwise Stanley would do it himself instead of Parson.


Refuting the single example doesn't alter the central point, which is that we don't know what the ruler has to do to maintain the side. I'm not exactly sure why you thought I was implying that the duties of the warlord were also the duties of the Ruler, since that is very obviously not the case.

We don't know until we see it in the comic, but I think it's unreasonable to assume that the ruler's natural thinkamancy works while captured. In other words, at minimum (s)he wouldn't be able to give orders while captured, just like in stupidworld.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby 0beron » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:07 am

Zeku wrote:We don't know until we see it in the comic, but I think it's unreasonable to assume that the ruler's natural thinkamancy works while captured. In other words, at minimum (s)he wouldn't be able to give orders while captured, just like in stupidworld.

Oh that part I totally agree on, given the example of Jillian being cut off from her father's Natural Thinkamancy while she was a Captive, we have to assume the same would be true in reverse. However I don't believe that is what was being suggested. The plan would be Capture the Ruler, then blackmail/extort their CWL. CWL can still give all of the orders that are really necessary.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby 0beron » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:10 am

Zeku wrote:I'm not exactly sure why you thought I was implying that the duties of the warlord were also the duties of the Ruler, since that is very obviously not the case.

Perhaps not generally speaking, but you were referring to finances. And it IS the case that a Warlord manages the activities required to make a city produce income, not the Ruler. You may be correct that there are other things involved, but the financial aspect you were hinting at is wholly the responsibility of Warlord city managers.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Zeku » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:23 am

Yeah I wasn't hinting at it

I was simply providing the most obvious example that high ranking officials have stupid official activities they need to participate in

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Mikalyaran » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:27 am

Zeku wrote:Sides are limited by move and juice, not by anything else. Time is divided into turns, not hours or any other discreet unit.


How dooes the unlimited move granted by the Arkenshoes fit into that?

As for the rest of this time debate I think our author has probably given us everything we need to understand turn and time in Erfworld overall. I think our problem comes down to the fact that Erfworld does run on different rules which are very difficult for us to reconcile as people who don't live with those rules. They seem strange to us just like they do to Parson because he is from our world. The dont seem strange to Sizemore because erf rules are all he has ever known. If your confused that's probably the best point to take from the time related summer update.

Overall though I think ftl has got it. These issues only seem weird from our POV. They would be non-issues for an Erfworlder. Just like they were for Parson and Sizemore respectively. I think Rob did his best explaining a difficult idea. Its was never going to fit nicely into everyone's frame of reference/understanding no matter how well he writes though.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Mikalyaran » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:38 am

0beron wrote:
Zeku wrote:I'm not exactly sure why you thought I was implying that the duties of the warlord were also the duties of the Ruler, since that is very obviously not the case.

Perhaps not generally speaking, but you were referring to finances. And it IS the case that a Warlord manages the activities required to make a city produce income, not the Ruler. You may be correct that there are other things involved, but the financial aspect you were hinting at is wholly the responsibility of Warlord city managers.


Warlord CAN manage cities. That was used as a punishment in jetstone for Warolords who screwed the pooch. Otherwise job like that are given to courtiers and such I think. Not sure if those are a seperate unit type or if Slately popped a bunch of warlords and whatnot just to hand hanger ons.
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