Book 2 - Page 113

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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby joosy » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:20 am

Mikalyaran wrote:So it wasn't a pyramid at all in the end just a structure to cover their attacks. I still don't feel like we know if Issac actually saw into the Pyramid at all.

I guess the question now is...

Will Parson Attack?


From knowledge in the extra's in the published book, we know that Isaac is skilled at Lookamancy and it is fairly likely that he saw what was going on inside. The structure is made from just rock/dirt which shouldn't pose an obstacle to him.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:23 am

joosy wrote:From knowledge in the extra's in the published book, we know that Isaac is skilled at Lookamancy and it is fairly likely that he saw what was going on inside. The structure is made from just rock/dirt which shouldn't pose an obstacle to him.

There was a huge debate in the last update about this in which people were suggesting the pyramid was somehow inexplicably made of the same stuff as the Temple of the Thinkamancers, and that the same material also blocks Lookamancy, despite no previous mention of the Temple doing that. So all in all, a pretty silly notion, but that's why someone brought it up again.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby multilis » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:24 am

Mikalyaran wrote:So it wasn't a pyramid at all in the end just a structure to cover their attacks. I still don't feel like we know if Issac actually saw into the Pyramid at all.

I guess the question now is...

Will Parson Attack?

He has to... Devil is in the details, how much can he make other side seem at fault for the fight, and can he limit it to just his enemies. An organised magic kingdom could first strike wipe him out. It will get organised against him if nothing happens now.

His decrypt snowball only works if his side has local surprise/advantage.

He can predict probability of future events and so can his predictomancer allies, so Parson likely will have edge in plotting out the next few minutes while other side is in chaos/blindly attacking.

Parson's side argument may be that the neutrality of magic kingdom was broken by Charlie first rather than him likely mirror argument of one Jojo just gave.

One diplomacy method is to try for a "let the warring parties fight it out while everyone else stays neutral, in return Parson agrees to leave after" as "solution".

...

The non diplomacy approach would be to try and conquer the magic kingdom then worry about diplomacy as ruler of magic kingdom.
Last edited by multilis on Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Mikalyaran » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:40 am

Also is this the first time we've heard of a caster being "Qualified"? Whenever folks talk about The Magic Kingdom I've always felt like there wasn't really any political structure we knew of. There should be some structure logically but there very little to indicate what it might be. But now we have this term which seems to hold some particular meaning. I wonder how one becomes qualified.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby multilis » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:45 am

Currently it is a gang up of one section of world verses Stanley/Parson.

Perhaps Parson is aiming for a gang up of entire world verses Charlie, knowing Charlie has 600 archons, being able to predict future events, etc...
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Jinren » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:52 am

Mikalyaran wrote:Also is this the first time we've heard of a caster being "Qualified"? Whenever folks talk about The Magic Kingdom I've always felt like there wasn't really any political structure we knew of. There should be some structure logically but there very little to indicate what it might be. But now we have this term which seems to hold some particular meaning. I wonder how one becomes qualified.


Accredited by whatever group have set themselves up as the Dirtamancy equivalent to the GMTTA? I actually like that idea a lot: dirtamancers are civil engineers. Having an internal regulatory body is totally in-character.

Anyway the talk of an "enforcement council" indicates that there probably isn't any fixed structure outside of the ones people willingly subscribe to. Although Jojo's description of the pyramid as "illegal" is interesting. Did he invent that on the spot or did Erflings actually think of /try a whole bunch of these tactics in the past?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Drakonite » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:59 am

I particularly like how the spell to destruct a (mine)crafted building is "Grief". Damn griefers!
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:59 am

There is obviously a Code of Conduct for the MK that specifies what is deemed appropriate there. This is perhaps inherent knowledge all casters have when popped, or it is something that was decided upon some time ago by MK casters and has been passed down by word of mouth to all who enter it.
We have heard mention of it before, and even talk of the Enforcement Council. We have no idea who they are, how they function, and if their existence is supported by mechanics or if it's just part of the universally agreed upon Code of Conduct.
So while it's interesting that we may see this body in action, I don't think it's really new or earth-shattering information...
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Zeku » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:16 pm

What's interesting about this update is that it hasn't really dawned on anyone that Parson has practically won the game.

We assume that Parson can't beat the MK with this attack, but that's based on the assumption that all casters work the same way Archons do, possessing a powerful attack and defense.

That isn't true. They each have abilities, but they do not have good combat stats, and become warrior chow if they are not screened, especially vs someone like Artemis.

Most significant of all, is that I don't believe we've seen undead vs flower power. We don't know if the Abbey is able to prevent the decrypted from attacking, nor do we know if thinkamancy works against them, or any other discipline.

The casters assembled in Portal Park are not enough to prevent the attack, especially given that many of them would not quickly move to stop Parson. This gives Wanda enough time to supplement the ranks with casters and meat shields.

Everyone in the MK is forced to negotiate or die, right now.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Brucester » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:20 pm

Wow. Now, that is surprising. A most interesting update.

I had considered the possibility that Parson would return to carry on the conversation with the Thinkamancers as they have information on Charlie that he wants and needs, but I didn't expect it to play out this way. It makes logical sense that Sizemore set up a defensive structure to hide Parson's efforts to decrypt a fighting force, and what Sizemore can build he can also remove. But I didn't expect a) Parson to go on the offensive so quickly and b) that the Carnymancers would be so dumb as to attack. The last 4 panels say it all - it doesn't look like Parson was in the MK for 'diplomatic purposes' given who he has with him, and even if that was his original intent, the Carnys have just thrown a second punch. Cue violence....

I really hope we don't see a decrypted Jeftichew.....
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:30 pm

Zeku wrote:What's interesting about this update is that it hasn't really dawned on anyone that Parson has practically won the game.
We assume that Parson can't beat the MK with this attack, but that's based on the assumption that all casters work the same way Archons do, possessing a powerful attack and defense.
That isn't true. They each have abilities, but they do not have good combat stats
Everyone in the MK is forced to negotiate or die, right now.

I really doubt that. Think of all the ways casters can render a unit ineffective. Predictamancers see the future and never miss, Thinkamancers can prolly stun, Carnies cheat. That's just the 3 groups present, assuming any of them attack.
Then what happens if casters cooperate? Even when not linked, their abilities can synergize to be better. Dittomancers double a Shockamancer's blasts, Healomancers keep everyone alive, ect.
Even if there is a moment of chaos at the start, the neutral bystanders are going to unite if there is a threat to their home, and that will be deadly.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby cheeseaholic » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:39 pm

There's really no telling what will happen now, as we don't know all the spells available nor all the factions. Parson has, what, 4 prophesies to fulfill? The carnies are against him and thinkamancers and predictamancers are for him. What about flower power? There's at least one hippimancer for him but that doesn't mean all of them are. And she seems to be sitting on the Parson side of the fence more than directly for him. Parson can probably croak all the carnimancers present before flower power stops them if it does, and the defensive structure should shield at least some of the view. He doesn't have enough troops to get sneak attacks with them against all the sections of the island that could oppose him at once, and if the thinkamancers side against him then there's no way of that happening anyway. Maybe if there's a hatamancer or other communication type caster present as well.

Of course even if word spreads ahead of the death, the MK is a place of individuals, so the response might be sporiadic enough that Parson can win anyway. Especially if he hits areas that get him casters that can make units first. Then probably shockamancers to have melee in front and glass cannons in the rear? Then he'll just need a cleric. To the healomancers!

Oh god he could send out adventuring parties to hunt down stragglers. That would be hilariously awesome.

He'll also have to watch his rear, since there will be casters popping in and out of portals all the time. Some range units to blast them would be a good idea. And a predictamancer to say which portal next would help.

I wish there was a panel showing the carnies' faces right now.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby kefkakrazy » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:42 pm

Zeku wrote:
Most significant of all, is that I don't believe we've seen undead vs flower power. We don't know if the Abbey is able to prevent the decrypted from attacking, nor do we know if thinkamancy works against them, or any other discipline.


I believe that Olive was able to shut down Wanda's Uncroaked in Book 0. It's possible I'm wrong or that extending the effect to Uncroaked required Olive's Chillaxe item/artifact, but I'm pretty sure that both the entire defending force and the entire Goodminton invading force were blocked from engaging that turn.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Urf » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:44 pm

If I were Parson, I'd croak Janis and Isaac first, and immediately decrypt them. The rest fall like dominos.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Zeku » Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:16 pm

I really doubt that. Think of all the ways casters can render a unit ineffective. Predictamancers see the future and never miss, Thinkamancers can prolly stun, Carnies cheat. That's just the 3 groups present, assuming any of them attack.
Then what happens if casters cooperate? Even when not linked, their abilities can synergize to be better. Dittomancers double a Shockamancer's blasts, Healomancers keep everyone alive, ect.
Even if there is a moment of chaos at the start, the neutral bystanders are going to unite if there is a threat to their home, and that will be deadly.


You've repeated my precise point.

Stun, more stuns, repeated stuns, mind control, walls from a dirtomancer, Carnies completely changing a fundamental game rule, Abbey turning off fighting for a moment, healomancers bringing everyone back to full health, etc.

And then suddenly, all that crap is done, and guess what? The decrypted took negligible damage, perhaps as many as half of them are dusted. (Unlikely due to the double bonus from Parson and Wanda, and the stacking bonus, but I'm erring on the side of caution.) Artemis attacks once, 8 casters fall over dead. The other rush forward, every caster in Portal Park dies in one hit.

You say "That's wrong, because Parson was concerned for his survival against just a few attacking casters." Yes, because he is level 2, and is only one target that everyone would focus their attacks on. He would die immediately from anything. That is completely unrelated to 10-50 heavily boosted decrypted vs ... casters.

Casters do not have meaningful combat stats, and the MK has no normal troops at all. Parson is smart enough to prioritize attacks against anything that can summon a combat unit.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:25 pm

Zeku wrote:Casters do not have meaningful combat stats, and the MK has no normal troops at all. Parson is smart enough to prioritize attacks against anything that can summon a combat unit.

Then I dispute your idea of "meaningful". Maybe their "I hit you with a sword" Combat score sucks, but that alone does nothing to indicate how useful they are in a fight. You're making an apples and oranges comparison. Caster and "normal combat units" are not the same thing and you can't evenly compare them. In the presences of so many casters, "normal combat units" can become entirely useless! Every caster type is a "priority target", not just the unit-making types. You are making a mistake in believing power = # of units.
Maybe Parson can win anyway with VERY clever tactics, but it is by no means going to be the cakewalk you're suggesting. Far from it.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Smurfton » Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:27 pm

Parson doesn't really have to do anything. Just by bringing an army of any sort into the magic kingdom, he has made a major statement. He could leave now, and they would still remember that MK cannot remain neutral and that yes, GK could enforce its will, even in MK.

Also, why are you lot convinced that that's just one stack? I count nineteen heads visible, which means that there's a minimum of three stacks. (Likely more than that, what with people being behind other people). Parson has probably arranged it so that Sizemore is leading one stack, himself leading another, and Wanda leading a third.

There is no such thing as a normal combat unit, just by the way.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Lipkin » Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:30 pm

Urf wrote:If I were Parson, I'd croak Janis and Isaac first, and immediately decrypt them. The rest fall like dominos.

Parson isn't nearly as cold as that.

I think this is a show of force, not an attack. Try to attack or capture Parson, and you'll regret it.

Also, Wanda is with Parson, and last we saw her, she was standing over the body of Jack. Does this mean she decrypted him off panel, or is she holding off on that?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:30 pm

Smurfton wrote:Also, why are you lot convinced that that's just one stack? I count nineteen heads visible, which means that there's a minimum of three stacks.

Stack =/= # of units. I think people are assuming it's all one stack because Wanda's + Parson's bonus is probably best concentrated into a single stack in this instance. Obviously people realize there are more units than the standard 8-stack, but the 8 thing is not a hard limit.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Lipkin » Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:38 pm

0beron wrote:
Smurfton wrote:Also, why are you lot convinced that that's just one stack? I count nineteen heads visible, which means that there's a minimum of three stacks.

Stack =/= # of units. I think people are assuming it's all one stack because Wanda's + Parson's bonus is probably best concentrated into a single stack in this instance. Obviously people realize there are more units than the standard 8-stack, but the 8 thing is not a hard limit.

Stacked units get a bonus just by benefit of being in a stack together, but that bonus maxes at 8 units. But you can stack more than 8 units together, and the combined bonus of Parson + Wanda + Pliers is very probably higher than the bonus given for just being in a stack of 8. We know that all the units are lead, because otherwise they would be auto-engaging. My bet is one big stack.
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