Book 2 - Page 113

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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Oreo2483 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:05 pm

oh ya and is anyone else getting the whole terracotta warriors vibe from Parson and his units? Just standing in the flat pyramid unmoving in battle ready positions seems just like them to me.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:21 pm

atalex wrote:[Misses the point]

The point is that in every single one of those examples, units are damaged or adversely affected, most of them in combat. And some of the objections are pretty weak ones:
[*]Wanda-Sizemore-Maggie: Croak an entire army with a single spell
[**]from a trimancer link.
We're standing in Thinkamancers up to our eyeballs at the moment.
[*]Maggie: Influences the mind of her own ruler
[**]outside of combat, as part of a sneak attack, against a target who appears particularly vulnerable to mental manipulation.
[*]Wanda: Overwrites a unit's memory
[**]Do you mean the low-level hobgobwin in Book 1?
It's the effect that matters, not circumstance. Low or high level, in combat or not, a spell is a spell. At any rate, many of those Decrypted ARE low level.
[*]Sizemore: Burns several stacks alive, croaks dozens of others in cave-ins
[**] with traps and scrolls that depended on sneak attacks and targets psychologically unprepared for such
He actually did use Dirtamancy for that flammable liquid, and sneak attack or no, I'm sorry but if a PIT opens up under you, you're falling. Roll your death/incapacitation/damage check, kthnxbye.
[*]Orwell: totally blinds a high level Warlord
[**]a clever adaptation of the caster's otherwise non-combat field of study, one unforeseen by said Warlord who had previously maintained an almost total indifference to the utility of magic in combat and which nevertheless resulted in Orwell's immediate incapacitation
....That's kinda my whole POINT, creative thinking on the part of casters shows that even the most tame disciplines have some pretty scary combat powers. Jillian could only fight back with Jack's help and because she was in melee. How do you think Artemis's famed ranged abilities would fare against that kind of spell?
[*]Jack: Innumerable examples of illusions, misdirection, and deceit[/list]
[**]have any of Jack's illusions ever led directly to the death or even injury of anyone else?
Also missing the point, because you define "directly" far too narrowly. He's saved units by veiling them and made enemies attack fake images. Especially in a combat where you are trying to protect squishy targets, Foolamancy is incredibly useful! Try hitting that Shockamancer & Dittomancer who are synergizing when there's 20 of them!
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby reteo » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:29 pm

"While we're talking about answering for stuff, Jojo, I'm sure others would like to know where you got that spell you gave me. Or, more specifically, who gave it to you. And as for trying to stop me? As I recall, you invited me into the enemy portal. Perhaps you knew something the others didn't?" I'm pretty sure Parson giving this line would undermine Jojo's enthusiasm for a Quorum of the Qualified.

I think the soldiers are a sort of honor guard to protect Parson from assailants during the talk with the Thinkamancers... particularly considering the attempts made by the carnymancers. They may not be very effective at causing harm, but they can take a hoboken for their chief if needed. As long as they don't attack, Parson should not be sufficient enough a threat to spur cooperation in the MK.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:15 pm

reteo wrote:"While we're talking about answering for stuff, Jojo, I'm sure others would like to know where you got that spell you gave me. Or, more specifically, who gave it to you. And as for trying to stop me? As I recall, you invited me into the enemy portal. Perhaps you knew something the others didn't?" I'm pretty sure Parson giving this line would undermine Jojo's enthusiasm for a Quorum of the Qualified.

I think the soldiers are a sort of honor guard to protect Parson from assailants during the talk with the Thinkamancers... particularly considering the attempts made by the carnymancers. They may not be very effective at causing harm, but they can take a hoboken for their chief if needed. As long as they don't attack, Parson should not be sufficient enough a threat to spur cooperation in the MK.

Yeah, if it actually came down to a trial (are we seriously going to have two trials in two different books going down at the same time? Both involving people (at least somewhat) opposed to Charlie?) I feel that Parson would do quite well.

As for the honor guard: If he was just looking for units to take shots for him, I'd think he'd have opted for the low level infantry and such as decrypts, not a high level warlord with a ranged special like Artemis. Although she could be there as the response to any spells cast at the group.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Kyrt » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:22 pm

reteo wrote:"While we're talking about answering for stuff, Jojo, I'm sure others would like to know where you got that spell you gave me. Or, more specifically, who gave it to you. And as for trying to stop me? As I recall, you invited me into the enemy portal. Perhaps you knew something the others didn't?" I'm pretty sure Parson giving this line would undermine Jojo's enthusiasm for a Quorum of the Qualified.

I think the soldiers are a sort of honor guard to protect Parson from assailants during the talk with the Thinkamancers... particularly considering the attempts made by the carnymancers. They may not be very effective at causing harm, but they can take a hoboken for their chief if needed. As long as they don't attack, Parson should not be sufficient enough a threat to spur cooperation in the MK.


I dunno.

He's just brought through a force several times larger than can be found garrisoning some towns in Erfworld. And he's left his new capital with a skeleton force to do it.

If he wanted to simply talk or make a point, it could very easily be argued he didn't need that much force.

As it is, if it does come to a fight - casters can be devastating. But many of the most potent spells we've seen to date have come either through advance preparation or links.

Interesting to see which way he goes. If nothing else, Parson has made a point.

He can conquer the MK should he decide to do it.

I'm sure he'd love to discuss the MKs hypocritical stance towards neutrality as well
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Zeku » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:23 pm

Oberon do you at least agree that if Parson attacks right now, he wins easily? There is no such thing as "attacking second" when you have low health. You attack first or you get instantly chewn apart.

Someone already mentioned that the MK is not prepared mentally for combat, and I somehow doubt they have runes or charges or special defenses set up for this exact scenario. After all, normal units can't pass through the portals. And lets not overlook the obvious, which is that each low-health enemy killed, joins Parsons side eventually. (We still don't know how long the transformation takes under battle conditions.)

I think some of these discipline specific powers could be argued back and forth. For example, I'm willing to concede that dirtamancy and shockamancy might be able to thin Parson's numbers, but a tri-link is completely out of the question, given the mental preparation required. There's no way Maggie would miss something like that going on in the background. Lets not forget that the tri-link was a Stanley innovation, and might be uncommon among those who are not working for a specific side.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:35 pm

Zeku wrote:0beron do you at least agree that if Parson attacks right now, he wins easily?

No, I don't. I take issue with the "easily". It's possible he could, but far from certain. Certainly the MK isn't as organized as a formal side, but clearly they have certain conventions and enough co-operation to set up guards at the GK portal for a bit. I'd say it's guaranteed that those in the immediate vicinity will at the very least start fighting wildly without coordination. The possibility of them getting coordinated, and how many casters join in beyond that is what I'd say is up for debate.
If they work cooperatively, even without going so far as a link, Parson's force is toast, no question about it. If however they delay or there is any degree of infighting, Parsons chances of success are directly proportional to the amount of chaos among the MK casters.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby ElKingo » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:16 pm

ElKingo wrote:This leaves MK shenanigans, A MK garrison to protect the Portal seems like a good idea. Or a task force to go after the Carnymancers, which would rustle jimmies all over the place. A bodyguard for future portal jaunts perhaps?


I don't always make predictions, but when I do I make sure they're vague and wide reaching enough to be mostly correct. :ugeek:

I really hope that Parson does the Carnymancer strike force option. If they're there just to stand around as a screen while Magic: The Gathering 2 - Magic: The Gatheringer sensibly talking endlessly erupts around them than that would be a huge waste of an awesome reveal.

Loving the art in those last panels.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby reteo » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:01 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:As for the honor guard: If he was just looking for units to take shots for him, I'd think he'd have opted for the low level infantry and such as decrypts, not a high level warlord with a ranged special like Artemis. Although she could be there as the response to any spells cast at the group.


You don't assemble a guard solely to be a meat shield. My point is that the melee fighters could intercept hostile casters' fire long enough for the ranged fighters to respond, and all the leadership bonuses would give those units the opportunity to survive an attack by the hostile casters.

At the same time, the chances of taking the MK would quickly go into the toilet following a hostile action. True, the governace of the Magic Kingdom isn't quite the same as the sides of the outer world, but keep in mind that most of those casters have been hired to sides more than once. There IS a lot of experience in combat. And even with the power of the pliers adding fallen casters to Parson's troops, he is seriously outnumbered and overwhelmed, and he knows it. The strategic goal would be in rendering the casters unable (unlikely) or unwilling (much more likely) to take him. So the token force is likely there to keep individual assailants from getting aggressive, and a neutral stance will likely be taken to prevent the MK from unifying against him.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Lilwik » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:16 pm

reteo wrote:So the token force is likely there to keep individual assailants from getting aggressive, and a neutral stance will likely be taken to prevent the MK from unifying against him.
That all makes perfect sense, but that makes it sound like the whole point of this is just so that he can talk to the Thinkamancers without being trapped in the Magic Kingdom. Of course talking to the Thinkamancers is probably enormously important and I would love to hear what they have to say, but would Parson really trap all these soldiers and warlords in the Magic Kingdom for that purpose alone? Could he possibly know that they would be able to safely leave the Magic Kingdom even though they can't safely enter?

Marie said that something big would happen. Parson is going to take some sort of action.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:24 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:I hope this is sarcasm. Joe Dirtamancer is clearly amazing.
Of course it isn't sarcasm. A caster who eats off of frozen poop and thinks about bangin' his own sister? Anyone who has even seen such a movie is clearly someone with awful taste. I mean the worst scene is where he... why are you looking at me like that?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby reteo » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:29 pm

Lilwik wrote:
reteo wrote:So the token force is likely there to keep individual assailants from getting aggressive, and a neutral stance will likely be taken to prevent the MK from unifying against him.
That all makes perfect sense, but that makes it sound like the whole point of this is just so that he can talk to the Thinkamancers without being trapped in the Magic Kingdom. Of course talking to the Thinkamancers is probably enormously important and I would love to hear what they have to say, but would Parson really trap all these soldiers and warlords in the Magic Kingdom for that purpose alone? Could he possibly know that they would be able to safely leave the Magic Kingdom even though they can't safely enter?


He did intend to talk to the Thinkamancers as soon as he was done with what he was doing. I am thinking this is the first step. What he intends to do with the soldiers after that depends on how the talks work out, I think. They could remain an honor guard, or they could become the rearguard.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:30 pm

0beron wrote:
Zeku wrote:0beron do you at least agree that if Parson attacks right now, he wins easily?

No, I don't. I take issue with the "easily". It's possible he could, but far from certain. Certainly the MK isn't as organized as a formal side, but clearly they have certain conventions and enough co-operation to set up guards at the GK portal for a bit. I'd say it's guaranteed that those in the immediate vicinity will at the very least start fighting wildly without coordination. The possibility of them getting coordinated, and how many casters join in beyond that is what I'd say is up for debate.
If they work cooperatively, even without going so far as a link, Parson's force is toast, no question about it. If however they delay or there is any degree of infighting, Parsons chances of success are directly proportional to the amount of chaos among the MK casters.



Joe Dirt collapses the remaining pyramid ceiling and/or walls down on the GK group. Rock falls.....etc.

-WHY OH WHY- do people think Parson and a small group could 'easily' take over the entire MK that is full of low and high level casters?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Tathar » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:33 pm

Lipkin wrote:
Urf wrote:If I were Parson, I'd croak Janis and Isaac first, and immediately decrypt them. The rest fall like dominos.

Parson isn't nearly as cold as that.

I think this is a show of force, not an attack. Try to attack or capture Parson, and you'll regret it.

Also, Wanda is with Parson, and last we saw her, she was standing over the body of Jack. Does this mean she decrypted him off panel, or is she holding off on that?

I agree. I fail to understand the point of invading the MK, since you need casters on your side to fight Charlie effectively. If you alienate the MK, then you won't have many casters willing to work for you. On the other hand, a show of force could serve to deal with the hostilities he has to deal with when he's there.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Zeku » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:40 pm

It's me mostly. I'm astounded that anyone thinks a thousand casters could stop or even slow down a group of ~50 units designed for fighting, any more than an auditorium full of pistol-wielding academics could deter an equipped SWAT team with specific orders.

I'm left with the sensation that no one here really perceives or understands the basic way that combat works in Erfworld. You've got your mind stuck in World of Warcraft, or Dungeons and Dragons, or Harry Potter, and think that a caster works like a slightly different version of a warrior, with a more complex attack, and lower health.

Nothing that has ever occurred in Erfworld confirms or even suggests that combat model exists. Casters are a completely different type of thing, a civilian with 1 or 2 hit points, that happens to have the ability to cast spells or shoot off an attack spell as a desperate measure. They can interact with other things and each other in all kinds of magical ways, and can stack with strong units to be used offensively. The fact that this is never or rarely done says more about their out of combat usefulness than their in-combat weakness, but it also doesn't refute the point either.

If we knew how many hit points they had, this would resolve the problem completely, but since we don't actually know how much damage the caster itself can take, I concede that we can't actually model pure fighter vs pure caster battles.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:48 pm

Zeku wrote:It's me mostly. I'm astounded that anyone thinks a thousand casters could stop or even slow down a group of ~50 units designed for fighting, any more than an auditorium full of pistol-wielding academics could deter an equipped SWAT team with specific orders.

I'm left with the sensation that no one here really perceives or understands the basic way that combat works in Erfworld. You've got your mind stuck in World of Warcraft, or Dungeons and Dragons, or Harry Potter, and think that a caster works like a slightly different version of a warrior, with a more complex attack, and lower health.

Nothing that has ever occurred in Erfworld confirms or even suggests that combat model exists. Casters are a completely different type of thing, a civilian with 1 or 2 hit points, that happens to have the ability to cast spells or shoot off an attack spell as a desperate measure. They can interact with other things and each other in all kinds of magical ways, and can stack with strong units to be used offensively. The fact that this is never or rarely done says more about their out of combat usefulness than their in-combat weakness, but it also doesn't refute the point either.

If we knew how many hit points they had, this would resolve the problem completely, but since we don't actually know how much damage the caster itself can take, I concede that we can't actually model pure fighter vs pure caster battles.



1. "I'm left with the sensation that no one here really perceives or understands the basic way that combat works in Erfworld." Joe Dirt collapses the remaining pyramid ceiling and/or walls down on the GK group. Rock falls.....etc.

And then, what hand to hand combat are you referring to, exactly?

2. "...that happens to have the ability to cast spells or shoot off an attack spell as a desperate measure." With all due respect, what are you smoking?
Olive, a single caster acting alone and by herself, prevented HOW MANY super deadly combat warriors from attacking for how long? As a desperate measure, what?

3. " I'm astounded that anyone thinks a thousand casters could stop or even slow down a group of ~50 units designed for fighting"
I'm astounded that you think that +/- 50 combat units have even the slightest tiny chance against a thousand casters. The only way it is even -slightly- possible as a concept is because Wanda can raise dead casters as they drop.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby reteo » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:49 pm

Zeku wrote:It's me mostly. I'm astounded that anyone thinks a thousand casters could stop or even slow down a group of ~50 units designed for fighting, any more than an auditorium full of pistol-wielding academics could deter an equipped SWAT team with specific orders.


Keep in mind, a lot of those casters have worked for sides, particularly the sides that popped them, and have experience in combat as a result. It's more like a terrorist strike in a convention of the Army Corps of Engineers. They're not strictly combat-centric units, but they've seen enough action to know which way to point a gun when the enemy comes.

Additionally, I can guarantee you that no matter how well-trained or well-equipped a given group is, there is a point where the numbers can become overwhelming, especially when those numbers can bring firearms and high-technology (or magic) to bear.
Last edited by reteo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby dholm » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:53 pm

0beron wrote:
Zeku wrote:0beron do you at least agree that if Parson attacks right now, he wins easily?

No, I don't. I take issue with the "easily". It's possible he could, but far from certain.

While I fully agree with you regarding the flexibility and viability of magic in combat, Parson's got the element of surprise on his side. They are likely capable of putting up a front against him which could take him down -- but I just don't think they have the time.

0beron wrote:Certainly the MK isn't as organized as a formal side, but clearly they have certain conventions and enough co-operation to set up guards at the GK portal for a bit. I'd say it's guaranteed that those in the immediate vicinity will at the very least start fighting wildly without coordination. The possibility of them getting coordinated, and how many casters join in beyond that is what I'd say is up for debate.
If they work cooperatively, even without going so far as a link, Parson's force is toast, no question about it. If however they delay or there is any degree of infighting, Parsons chances of success are directly proportional to the amount of chaos among the MK casters.

"No question about it"? That's just not true.

You seem to be under the impression that the Magic Kingdom would be able to respond immediately and without fail and summon all of its considerable might against Parson, with all disciplines working together just to thwart him (in which case he would, indeed, be toast). But why would they? Even if they were all willing, there's no unified information network without the Thinkamancers (unless Charlie steps in, which I grant you is not unlikely). And they are likely not all willing. Casters -- at least those who aren't Barbarians -- have their own Sides and Rulers. The Barbarians are likely far more used to working alone, or with a few colleagues within their discipline. Why would they risk their own skins to help attack Parson?

The fact that they have a Magic Kingdom-wide society with laws, regulations and enforcement of the same does not mean they are in any way unified when said kingdom is under attack. Despite the name, it is far more of a coalition of peaceful cooperation than a unified nation.

But let's ignore that for a second, and assume that all available casters will respond to a call of attack. Even if the Thinkamancers, Janice, Marie and the Predictamancers, Joe Dirt the Dirtamancer and the unnamed Healomancer, plus whatever other spectators are within attack range at present all attack Parson right now along with the Carnymancers, I doubt they would defeat Parson's stack, which has at least his own Chief Warlord bonus and Wanda's Croakamancer bonus (and they wouldn't be stacked against him except in smaller groups, such as the Carnymancers in one stack or the Thinkamancers in another). Such an unprovoked attack would immediately start the croak-and-decrypt mill--Parson's force kills whichever casters they can reach, Wanda decrypts them and adds them to the army, and repeat ad nauseam. I would not, therefore, consider it a very likely scenario. If Parson attacks without waiting further, it may provoke the casters into uniting against him--but then he'd still have the first attack, which means the mill gets started a little earlier.

I think it far more likely that the majority of casters will be cautious and not attack first, and I doubt Parson truly wants to invade the Magic Kingdom--it just doesn't seem to be worth the risk; despite the mill mentioned above, it's far from a certain outcome. After the initial decapitation strike (which should remove the majority of the Great Minds that Think Alike from the Magic Kingdom's side in one way or another), the rest of the casters would be far more likely to unite against him, and then we bring in all the various wondrous combinations of different disciplines against Parson. Of course, assuming Decrypted casters can cast, he'd eventually start doing the same thing, unless the Magic Kingdom succeeds in assassinating Wanda somehow...


....but I'm rambling, sorry. My point was, it's unlikely that either side is going to just outright attack.

I personally think the Decrypted soldiers are there to a) protect him, b) help him enforce whatever he's going to say next, and c) show them he's not someone to mess with.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:13 pm

Zeku, I have really come to the conclusion that you are somehow tapping into the forum from some strange parallel dimension that has a totally different version of this comic. Either that or you're just deliberately trolling.

Point is, we have seen time and time again that casters are the big (yet squishy) guns that get called in for the big fights, and every time immense carnage results. Their power in combat is an indisputable fact, and anyone who fails to appreciate that clearly cannot comprehend battle mechanics any more complex than "I hit you with a sword".

Dholm, you were actually saying what I was just in a slightly different way. IF the casters present launch a coordinated attack, they will win without a question. But I agree that coordination is unlikely just like you say.
Failing that, it just becomes a question of how quickly they act and how cooperatively. This question isn't a simple on/off switch between "Easy Victory for MK" vs "Easy Victory for Parson". There are many degrees of difficulty in between. In those degrees, it's possible one of the sides wins, but with terrible losses. An "easy" victory for either side is in my opinion unlikely.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby the_tick_rules » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:50 pm

Not guilty, by reason of he could kick our ass if we try anything.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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