Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:43 pm

0beron wrote:This serves as a very good solid confirmation that Disabanding CAN consciously be done at-will by a Ruler.
Was this ever in doubt? If so, where did that doubt come from? It seems to me that the way Erfworlders have talked about disbanding always made it seem like an effortless thing for a ruler to do to anyone he ruled.

The only hint that disbanding isn't so easy was when Queen Bea ordered her troops out of the city before disbanding herself so that her troops would be disbanded by the end of Unaroyal. If disbanding were easy for her to do, she could have just disbanded them directly, but I'm pretty sure her reason was sentimental, not practical. She wanted them disbanded, but didn't want to see them disbanded, so she arranged for them to disband after herself instead of before.

Jinren wrote:So Banhammer needs to put on an act, reinforce the sanctity of the trial, and save everyone's asses by demonstrating to Charlie that there is definitely no immediate need to get involved.
So you're saying that Banhammer might be just saying the words without actually disbanding anyone? It did surprise me that Banhammer wouldn't just disband by thought alone. But then again, Charlie can surely see everything that's happening, so he would see whether Jillian is disbanded or not. On the other hand, Jack is the one that Charlie is connected to, so perhaps there is an unspoken intention behind Banhammer's order that everyone except Charlie hears by Natural Thinkamancy: "Everyone act like Jillian is disbanded. Jack, fool Charlie, please." In other words, he is ordering everyone to consider Jillian disbanded, instead of actually disbanding her.

That's an awful stretch. I consider disbanding the gwiffon to be much more likely, but the fake disbanding is still better than the idea that disbanding can be ignored or survived. I remember that somewhere it was said that Mathamancers think that it might be possible to pop dead units back into Erfworld if exactly the right price is paid. I don't remember where I read that, but even that seems more likely to me than Jillian simply ignoring her own disbanding
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby effataigus » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:44 pm

Charlie: I've got forces in El Efbaum right now. Agree to my terms and I'll wipe out Faq and give you Haffaton back, Olive.
Olive: I agree. Do it.
Jack: Sooo, I was only pretending to be projecting a thinkagram with Charlie... but I think it is now clear how Olive feels about this trial. Also, shame on you for believing that Banhammer would disband his own daughter, Olive.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Jinren » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:53 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Jinren wrote:So Banhammer needs to put on an act, reinforce the sanctity of the trial, and save everyone's asses by demonstrating to Charlie that there is definitely no immediate need to get involved.
So you're saying that Banhammer might be just saying the words without actually disbanding anyone? It did surprise me that Banhammer wouldn't just disband by thought alone. But then again, Charlie can surely see everything that's happening, so he would see whether Jillian is disbanded or not. On the other hand, Jack is the one that Charlie is connected to, so perhaps there is an unspoken intention behind Banhammer's order that everyone except Charlie hears by Natural Thinkamancy: "Everyone act like Jillian is disbanded. Jack, fool Charlie, please." In other words, he is ordering everyone to consider Jillian disbanded, instead of actually disbanding her.

That's an awful stretch. I consider disbanding the gwiffon to be much more likely, but the fake disbanding is still better than the idea that disbanding can be ignored or survived. I remember that somewhere it was said that Mathamancers think that it might be possible to pop dead units back into Erfworld if exactly the right price is paid. I don't remember where I read that, but even that seems more likely to me than Jillian simply ignoring her own disbanding


Oh I was following the gwiffon idea, but guessing he was disbanding the gwiffon as the show of force. Alongside the throwing of the bench and generally getting obviously, audibly angry.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:11 pm

Lilwik wrote:
0beron wrote:This serves as a very good solid confirmation that Disabanding CAN consciously be done at-will by a Ruler.
Was this ever in doubt? If so, where did that doubt come from? It seems to me that the way Erfworlders have talked about disbanding always made it seem like an effortless thing for a ruler to do to anyone he ruled.

Since we'd never actually seen it done on screen there was speculation by some that it was just an empty threat, and units weren't smart enough to realize since the auto-disband mechanic usually took care of things. It's always been accompanied by "I almost..." "I considered..." ect, leading to a shred of doubt.
As for Bea, I don't think that was ever part of the evidence against at-will disbanding. The reason she sent units into the field was to burn up her treasury the only way she could. If she had manually disbanded them and then ended the side (presumably) GK still would have captured the Treasury when they took the city.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby dirocyn » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:20 pm

Now we have an explanation for the signamancy of Banhammer's name. This was his destiny, this has always been his destiny.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Zeku » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:25 pm

effataigus wrote:Charlie: I've got forces in El Efbaum right now. Agree to my terms and I'll wipe out Faq and give you Haffaton back, Olive.
Olive: I agree. Do it.
Jack: Sooo, I was only pretending to be projecting a thinkagram with Charlie... but I think it is now clear how Olive feels about this trial. Also, shame on you for believing that Banhammer would disband his own daughter, Olive.


This is a fantastic idea, but it relies on Jack knowing all kinds of things about the previous interactions of Charlie and Olive so it's probably not possible. The only way it could work is if Jack cut off the conversation at exactly the right moment and stayed in character.

I also like the 'banhammer is very smart' idea. Unfortunately he isn't.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby j_scheibel » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:51 pm

0beron wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
0beron wrote:This serves as a very good solid confirmation that Disabanding CAN consciously be done at-will by a Ruler.
Was this ever in doubt? If so, where did that doubt come from? It seems to me that the way Erfworlders have talked about disbanding always made it seem like an effortless thing for a ruler to do to anyone he ruled.

Since we'd never actually seen it done on screen there was speculation by some that it was just an empty threat, and units weren't smart enough to realize since the auto-disband mechanic usually took care of things. It's always been accompanied by "I almost..." "I considered..." ect, leading to a shred of doubt.
As for Bea, I don't think that was ever part of the evidence against at-will disbanding. The reason she sent units into the field was to burn up her treasury the only way she could. If she had manually disbanded them and then ended the side (presumably) GK still would have captured the Treasury when they took the city.


For reference http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE043_NoIllustration.png yeah, bea didn't really disband everyone but it doesn't mean she couldn't have if shad chosen too. She walked into the magic kingdom portal and poof! Everyone disbanded as their leader was gone. She wasn't a caster and died when tried to walk in to the portal to the magic kingdom. One can only imagine she wanted to try to walk in to a portal just to see experience it, though she knew it was suicide. Or perhaps more elegant and noble than just disbanding. Or maybe even if she had disbanded everyone she still needed to get rid of herself as you can't self disband.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:40 pm

Zeku wrote:Im pretty sure that "Charlie wants endless war" is just a forum speculation, it has not been confirmed in comic, and only recently hinted at. The only thing we've heard in-comic (from Olive) is that Charlie is no longer interested in Peace on Erf.


The one thing on erf that he absolutely did not want was to unite Erfworld. Seemingly the only way to have Erfworld not be united would be for it to be constantly at war. Then there is of course his rule about 'our business is providing solutions to problems' 'creating problems creates business'. All in all it sounds like he wants endless war. Now WHY he might want that is up for grabs, as it likely isn't a means unto itself. Another possibility could be that he just doesn't want it united under him, but that's a bit of a stretch.

P.S. No one noticed that the number 69 came up in the 69th comic of IP(TSF)? Shame for not noticing the signamancy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby joosy » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:21 pm

Charlie is such a little weasel :) 80 schmuckers a minute?!? sheesh. He then proceeds to spend those minutes stating that he will not betray secrets (while simultaneously trying to get free information from Jillian) and negotiating with his daughter. He makes me both jealous and nauseated.

I also enjoyed how he pointed out the obvious Faq's hypocrisy. The fact that Jillian does violence to provide for Faq's upkeep must really gnaw at everything the Court of Faq holds dear.

I wonder if the Court of Faq is still waiting somewhere in the Magic Kingdom, sustained by gems created by Moothfott from the spoils of Haffaton.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:44 pm

joosy wrote:I wonder if the Court of Faq is still waiting somewhere in the Magic Kingdom, sustained by gems created by Moothfott from the spoils of Haffaton.

The entire Court is there [at the trial] now. I would assume they're sustained by a combination of gems and Purses.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:47 pm

joosy wrote:Charlie is such a little weasel :) 80 schmuckers a minute?!? sheesh. He then proceeds to spend those minutes stating that he will not betray secrets (while simultaneously trying to get free information from Jillian) and negotiating with his daughter.
He's certainly not being paid for his time yet. The way things are going I doubt he'll get any shmuckers at all out of this whole incident. He's really dropping the ball this time.

0beron wrote:I would assume they're sustained by a combination of gems and Purses.
I think only barbarians need to resort to that kind of thing.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby MonteCristo » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:50 pm

Jinren wrote:Jillian has seen this... but Banhammer is hardly going to have missed it (it was right in front of the whole room!). Everyone is thinking what Jillian is thinking, and she's the last rather than the first to realise it - in this case, perhaps Banhammer has already got to the next step and considered that if Charlie is willing to throw away his professional facade and crush them like bugs at the mere mention of a live, talking, functioning-hostage Olive, threatening to kill her is less likely to slow Charlie down than it is to seal all of their dooms, either because he has feelings and they are hurt, or because he doesn't and Faq are now a liability.


Ya i think your giving Banhammer too much credit. This forum tends to do that... they often assume that Banhammer is smarter than he appears; like when he was dealing with Olive many people thought he actually had some kind of clever scheme in the works, but in truth everything was what it appeared to be. The idealistic and wise Banhammer is naive and doesn't really seem to have much sense to how the darker sides of the world works. Jillian, she can read between the lines to what Charlie is saying; She knows that Charlie is subtlety negotiating the conditions for Olive's freedom, but Banhammer is more likely oblivious.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby joosy » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:33 pm

0beron wrote:
joosy wrote:I wonder if the Court of Faq is still waiting somewhere in the Magic Kingdom, sustained by gems created by Moothfott from the spoils of Haffaton.

The entire Court is there [at the trial] now. I would assume they're sustained by a combination of gems and Purses.

My apologies, I meant where the court was in Book 2, not Book 0.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby El_Chupacabra » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:58 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
Zeku wrote:Im pretty sure that "Charlie wants endless war" is just a forum speculation, it has not been confirmed in comic, and only recently hinted at. The only thing we've heard in-comic (from Olive) is that Charlie is no longer interested in Peace on Erf.


The one thing on erf that he absolutely did not want was to unite Erfworld. Seemingly the only way to have Erfworld not be united would be for it to be constantly at war. Then there is of course his rule about 'our business is providing solutions to problems' 'creating problems creates business'. All in all it sounds like he wants endless war. Now WHY he might want that is up for grabs, as it likely isn't a means unto itself. Another possibility could be that he just doesn't want it united under him, but that's a bit of a stretch.

P.S. No one noticed that the number 69 came up in the 69th comic of IP(TSF)? Shame for not noticing the signamancy.


I could see he had some Prediction that Peace on Erf could only come when he was croaked.

Or he's got something he needs to spend a ludicrous amount of schmuckers to maintain. Perhaps the Poison has a Cure that's obscenely expensive, but has palliatives that are somewhat cheaper and reduce the strength?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby TheLiontamer » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:15 pm

If Banhammer is disbanding anyone other than Jillian, he's more clever than we've given him credit for. I think Banhammer is more clever than we give him credit for, but his convictions betray him. I find it super hard to believe that Jillian can survive(?) or disobey(?) a disbanding. I don't think it's an order you can deny.

In my head I see the Gwiffon being disbanded, Jillian falling, and Fate borrows the numbers to croak Olive when Jillian falls on her. Or even Jillian falling sword first onto her. The former being more Erf-y and Fate-y to me.

I'll put 5q that Jack uses Foolamancy to somehow interfere with the disbanding order, making Banhammer either disband the wrong unit, or none at all.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:32 pm

TheLiontamer wrote:In my head I see the Gwiffon being disbanded, Jillian falling, and Fate borrows the numbers to croak Olive when Jillian falls on her. Or even Jillian falling sword first onto her.
That suggestion blows my mind. I'd bet 50q to 10q on Olive not dying like that, except that it would just be a joke bet. If it actually happens I would be totally speechless.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby El_Chupacabra » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:33 pm

Holy cow. This must explain how Stanley encountered so many dwagons en route to Faq.

Charlie never quite found out where Faq was, but knew he wanted to empower Sides near their suspected location. And he was smarting (in some way) from the croaking of Olive in such a dramatic fashion.

That, and he knew that Faq knew more about him than was acceptable.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby R13 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:35 pm

my crackpot theory is Banhammer will fail to disband Jillian, not because of anything she is doing, but because his heart is not in it. It has often been mentioned that orders are given somewhat telepathically - that the words are not necessary - could the words even be different from the telepathic order? Could it be that Banhammer is angry, but simply doesn't have the will to disband his daughter? I mean, they are having an extended formal trial for an enemy leader, and he's going to summarily execute his own hier?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby ftl » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:32 pm

I like the gwiffon theory. It makes for a clever cliffhanger.

The alternatives are that
1) A ruler can fail to disband a unit sometimes.
2) Banhammer has some super-clever plan involving misdirecting people to think he disbanded jillian when really he didn't
3) ...I suppose one alternative is that he just yells DISBAND without actually disbanding Jillian, like an outburst of anger where he stops himself before he actually hurts someone. His heart wasn't in it.

Dunno. At this point I wouldn't expect Banhammer to be super-clever, and I wouldn't expect some weird rules thing with disbanding to become relevant.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:35 pm

joosy wrote:My apologies, I meant where the court [of Old FAQ] was in Book 2, not Book 0.
Oooooooh! Well, supposedly they were assumed to be croaked in Stanley's attack. And I am inclined to believe it. For 1 many of them are casters of very combat-useful schools: Orwell, Betsy, and Rusty come to mind in particular. And secondly, I have to believe that if they knew Jillian was alive and FAQ re-founded, they would have shown themselves, or would be working with Marie.
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