Book 2 – Page 114

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lipkin » Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:26 am

Frankly, if Parson were to help conquer all of Erf, I'd be greatly disappointed. The moral implications of such an act are too large. So far he has only fought against one enemy, the RCC. All the cities he helped take through advising Ansom were ones from the RCC. Now he's going after Charlie, who directly came after him. All's fair in love and war and so on. But I have a hard time seeing Parson go along with global conquest. Going after neutral sides in a rolling wave of decryption is both ruthless, and easy. Parson wouldn't enjoy it.

Tension is growing between Stanley and Wanda. If the RCC were to be removed from the picture, I think they would turn on each other. That's where I would see the story going after the RCC and maybe Charlie are removed. Parson vs Wanda. In fact, imagine if Wanda were to croak Stanley while Parson were in the MK (not on this trip, obviously). Parson would go Barbarian, as would Maggie and Sizemore. Every Gobwin Knob unit would disband except for the decrypted, and Wanda could start a new side. Now you have Parson, Sizemore, and Maggie starting a new side from scratch, or trying to get by as barbarians in the MK.

Parson isn't a villain, but as he noted when he first arrived, he's on the side of the bad guys. I can;t see him being ok with that forever.

It's also worth noting that the Arkentools are speculated to have built Erf itself. It would be fitting if a war between all the attuned helped to break Erf like the predictamancers are hoping.
User avatar
Lipkin
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 1061
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lilwik » Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:01 am

Lipkin wrote:Going after neutral sides in a rolling wave of decryption is both ruthless, and easy. Parson wouldn't enjoy it.
I agree, but what Parson enjoys doesn't seem relevant. Parson doesn't get to make those sorts of decisions. The more interesting issue is what Stanley would enjoy. Plus, we are a long way from the point at which they need to make that decision; until they get rid of Charlie it's far too early for Gobwin Knob to worry about the rest of the world. It's hard to guess how characters may develop in the distant future.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby ManaCaster » Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:10 am

Lilwik wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:They like believing that they are superior to everyone else.
You're probably right, but the more we get to know royals the more I wonder if they may simply have an unshakable belief that they are superior, whether they like to believe it or not. It may be so built into them that they don't even have the option to believe otherwise.

That would certainly explain Jillian, who hates Royal posh consciously, and yet shows some signs of Royal vanity that even she is surprised at.

Lilwik wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:More likely, the very laws of Efworld will be changed to make war both undesirable and nearly impossible.
The laws of Erfworld don't change. The laws are the foundation upon which everything else is built. Parson's only real power is cleverness, and cleverness doesn't make him a titan. He can't cross a hex boundary without move. What he can do is exploit the rules as they are in ways that no one else on Erfworld would ever think of, and I'm sure we'll see more of that before Parson is finished. Maybe instead of conquering everything Parson will find a way to end war by using the laws in a new way, perhaps with the help of the Arkendish. If he comes up with something even better than decrypting the whole world, that would be the ultimate Parson moment.

The Titans created many of the rules in the first place, and are said to have used the Arkentools to create the world. Thus far, none of the tools (except maybe the Arkendish) has shown anywhere near the level of versatility needed to build a world, but they do have at least some ability to overcome the Titan-imposed rules (unlimited move for instance). And part of Wanda's quest is to collect them all.

Also, from the sounds of it, the main thing that makes the Titans so special is both the sheer scale of their power, and the fact that they have access to every single discipline. Oh, sure, no one caster, or even three of them, can match a Titan, but each of them does have a special insight into how the universe works, and tricaster links can still do some pretty broken things that are considered Titanic in nature. And now, Parson has discovered his own caster special, and thus has some of those insights. So while altering Titan-created rules isn't necessarily the only way Parson could bring peace, it's probably possible.

Hey, does anyone else think it would be cool if Parson's last major opponent was a fallen Titan of some sort?
ManaCaster
 
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:06 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby zilfallon » Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:38 am

ManaCaster wrote:Hey, does anyone else think it would be cool if Parson's last major opponent was a fallen Titan of some sort?


You mean, like, one of the titans decides that the guy abusing the boop out of their laws must be stopped while the other titans stay neutral and that titan creates his own retardedly overpowered side to stop Lord Hamster?

Yeah, that would be EPIC.
rkyeun wrote:Roses are red.
Violets are blue.

Image
User avatar
zilfallon
 
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:47 am
Location: Magic Kingdom

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby BakaGrappler » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:25 am

ManaCaster wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:They like believing that they are superior to everyone else.
You're probably right, but the more we get to know royals the more I wonder if they may simply have an unshakable belief that they are superior, whether they like to believe it or not. It may be so built into them that they don't even have the option to believe otherwise.

That would certainly explain Jillian, who hates Royal posh consciously, and yet shows some signs of Royal vanity that even she is surprised at.


It's not that they like thinking they are better than everyone else, it's that they are forced to think they are better than everyone else. I've been thinking on it a lot, about how Ansom's royal vanity disappeared the moment he was resurrected. Highly improbable. And Ossomer turned not because of his ideas on royalty, but his ideas about what is honorable and noble, and standing by family. And Don King is slowly being eaten up by the worm of a royal crusade. Add Jillian finally succumbing to her royal blood and defnding herself to Ansom of all people, and do you know what we have?

Natural Thinkamancy.

The Titanic Mandate is not that Royals shall rule all others, it is that Royals shall see themselves as the rulers of all others. And as such, like Parson said, any time a non-Royal gets too powerful, they gang up to beat them down. It's one of those rules in Erfworld that keeps wars going, so it's one of the rules that Parson is going to have to break.
Hey, have you read Shadows of the Evergreen? It's my ErfFic. People say it's pretty good over here, and who am I to argue? Check it out, and then tell me what you think of my hack writing.
Last Updated: 6/16/14
User avatar
BakaGrappler
 
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:38 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby kagato23 » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:23 am

GWvsJohn wrote:All barbarians all across Erfworld act at the same time. So it's not just MK barbarians, GK would have to wait for every barbarian everywhere to finish turn.

No, remember time is relative here. different hexes' move at different speeds. Based on things Maggie and Jillian have said in updates I'm not willing to look up right now, turns are effected by fate: time's gonna work different if you are going to have an encounter with another side during your turn. Jillian knew her stealth would not be successful because of this in one update in book zero.

So barbarians who will have no encounters in their turn will not be running on the same time as barbarians who will be wiped out by a scouting party, or barbarians defending a ruin. Nothing would get done if everybody had to wait for one nebulous group that had no connection to anybody else. I imagine you don't even have to wait for your allies to finish turn most of the time, excepting when there's coalition forces all united and acting together.
Portal X Parson OTP!
User avatar
kagato23
Tool + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Tool + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Diacritic » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:39 am

Maybe Parson's casting ability isn't due to a special trait that he has, it's just that he's from Stupidworld, where what people can learn isn't defined by their caste. He's got some tiny chance at casting just because you tend to pick things up if you're around them enough.
Diacritic
Tool + Erfabet Supporter!
Tool + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:25 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby No one in particular » Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:55 pm

Mogster2 wrote:
  1. What happened to Cubbins?

Cubbins was knocked out, strapped to a jet pack, and sent off on auto-pilot by Ace, back on page 99 (http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_99) Whether an archer sniped him on the way out, Charlie snagged him right outside the wall, or if he made it all the way back to Tramennis, we don't know.

As far as Parson breaking war on Erfworld, I'm hoping for something more mental than military. Parson knows that all the fighting is just playing the game, by the games rules. Beating everyone everywhere and "winning" that way can't be permanent, since all it would do would be to prove that "fighting all the time and killing everyone who disagrees with you WORKS" Even among the decrypted, we've seen schisms form.

What Parson is going to have to do is demonstrate that war is UNPROFITABLE. The self-sufficiency hack he was considering in book 2, Klog #3... multi-hex transportation for units using the relay system... zero-upkeep units through decryption (that one's a bit extreme, but still, think of the savings! :p )

If Parson can break Charlie's back, and get him to stop encouraging war everywhere (Charlie's Rule #3, corollary: "Creating problems for our clients creates business"), and demonstrate to the rest of the world that LISTENING to him is actually more profitable than FIGHTING him... he can truly end war on Erf that way. To paraphrase Parson from the end of book 1:
Now what is our strategic goal here?
End war on Erf.
Close. It's to render the enemy incapable or unwilling to MAKE war in the first place.
"Are you always so pessimistic?"
"Not at all. I saved it for my last battle."
---
Got questions? Ask Count Downer!
User avatar
No one in particular
 
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:48 pm
Location: Nowhere Atoll

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby mortissimus » Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:16 pm

zilfallon wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:Hey, does anyone else think it would be cool if Parson's last major opponent was a fallen Titan of some sort?


You mean, like, one of the titans decides that the guy abusing the boop out of their laws must be stopped while the other titans stay neutral and that titan creates his own retardedly overpowered side to stop Lord Hamster?

Yeah, that would be EPIC.


And the Titan is named Fate.

In one way it would be epic, but in another I am hoping for something more interesting (something surprising preferably, so I don't know what exactly).
mortissimus
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:04 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby cheeseaholic » Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:25 pm

I've always wondered if the Titans are with or against Fate. And Erfworld. Or if they care at all.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Wanda's probable reaction to Parson going against Charlie yet.
cheeseaholic
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lilwik » Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:43 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:I'm surprised nobody mentioned Wanda's probable reaction to Parson going against Charlie yet.
I was mildly interested that Parson said he was going to kill Charlie by Thinkagram. Everyone has pointed out how that means he was giving Charlie a declaration of war because Charlie could listen in, but it's also interesting that Wanda couldn't hear it, therefore preventing her from reacting to that plan yet. On the other hand I don't think it will matter to her much. She wouldn't be in favor of actually killing Charlie, but capturing and turning him would fit nicely into her plans, so she wouldn't make much of a fuss about going to war against him if ordered to do it.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Oberon » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:41 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:Nice job Parson with the "And figure out how to kill Charlie" via thinkagram. He's forcing the Great Minds into the fray with that. Less thinking more doing. He could have certainly agreed to follow them outside of thinkagram so he's trying to drag them in. He'll be negotiating from more strength with them forced into it.
But it's puzzling. To me, at least. Parson knows that Charley can hack thinkagrams, and so it's clear that he is sending a message to Charlie. But he also knows that Jojo is working for Charlie, and so simply saying out loud to Issac the same thing he said via thinkagram would have achieved the same goal. And it would have notified the entire MK of his goal. Obviously the MK isn't of one mind regarding Charlie, or Jojo wouldn't be his tool, but at least the thinkamancers appear to be of one mind on the subject, and they seem to have the respect of most of the other casters.


I'm waiting to see what's become of Stanley. He had some recent character development, resulting in his change of heart about moving the capitol, but then he was dropped from the updates. It bears keeping in mind that Stanley really risked all to save Parson. Moving his capitol away from him was an enormous risk, not only to himself but to the entire GK side. And it remains so until he either moves it back to GK or moves himself to Jetstone.




0beron wrote:EDIT: Oh and lastly, my name is spelled with a zero. Keep misspelling it, and you're going to get the guy who actually spells it with an "oh" pissed at you...and you really don't want BOTH of us hating you...considering I'm by far the much nicer one.
Now, now. I'll hate who I want to hate, thank you very much. And for the record, I don't invest much if any emotion into the forums, so hate doesn't even come into it. I am the less nice guy, but that's only because I have a lower tolerance for fools. Jack excepted, of course.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Tonot » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:14 pm

BakaGrappler wrote:
Natural Thinkamancy.

The Titanic Mandate is not that Royals shall rule all others, it is that Royals shall see themselves as the rulers of all others. And as such, like Parson said, any time a non-Royal gets too powerful, they gang up to beat them down. It's one of those rules in Erfworld that keeps wars going, so it's one of the rules that Parson is going to have to break.


I like that. It explains why some "other way" of thinking about themselves then as "Royals with the Titans mandate" hasn't arisen in their philosophies. One of the reasons the various 18th century revolutions kept happening, and were sometimes successful, was "Royalty puts its trousers on one leg at a time" sort of thinking was often quite common even in the high aristocracy. Some of the British Peers stood up in the House of Lords and, because of their philosophical misgivings about ideas like God given right to rule, granted that the American Colonists had some right on their side of the argument. If they had really believed the official story of the Monarchy, it would have been blasphemy against the Will of the Anointed of God to have allowed even a distant agreement with criticism of Royal Rule.

No one in particular wrote:What Parson is going to have to do is demonstrate that war is UNPROFITABLE.


War being unprofitable never stopped it in our history though, I think the opposite in fact, people and nations in the real world kept on with a war long after they knew it was likely lost because they couldn't think of a way to deal with the economic fall out of stopping. Certainly nations in Erf-world have reason to fear it stopping, many have their strategies based on capturing and razing to create value.
Others in the rw, like the British Empire did, kept going into new wars because, though ultimately they were unprofitable in the extreme, in the short term they boosted production and brought in captured gold to use as props to their artificial value unit.

Why then, would it stop conflict in a world where the entire point and make-up of the nations, is to wage war?.
Tonot
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:06 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby 0beron » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:39 pm

Oberon wrote:...I have a lower tolerance for fools. Jack excepted, of course.
Hahaha, I love these rare little moments of agreement we have. You score points for liking Jack also :)
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3190
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lilwik » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:44 pm

Tonot wrote:Others in the rw, like the British Empire did, kept going into new wars because, though ultimately they were unprofitable in the extreme, in the short term they boosted production and brought in captured gold to use as props to their artificial value unit. Why then, would it stop conflict in a world where the entire point and make-up of the nations, is to wage war?.
So even if Parson cleverly figured out a better way of life for Erfworlders, that wouldn't end war because people would always go to war for foolish reasons and greed for the short-term gain. Does that mean that only uniting Erfworld into a single vast side could end war? If the whole world were one side, that would certainly end war temporarily, but it would also create a single point of failure for the entire world.

Perhaps what is needed is a side to act like the opposite of Charlie, monitoring the world with the Arkendish to enforce peace against anyone who chooses to make war. But that is no more stable than the whole-world side idea, since it can be ruined just as easily by the death of the ruler.

Perhaps there is some secret that the Arkendish has revealed to Charlie that we don't know yet, and once Parson discovers this secret he'll see a new possibility for all of Erfworld that we can't even begin to guess.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby ManaCaster » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:56 pm

Diacritic wrote:Maybe Parson's casting ability isn't due to a special trait that he has, it's just that he's from Stupidworld, where what people can learn isn't defined by their caste. He's got some tiny chance at casting just because you tend to pick things up if you're around them enough.

The problem with that theory is, the text update that revealed his casting skill described casting as a special, manipulable, sense. It is impossible for a human to "learn" an entirely new sense into being. It would have to be surgically attached somehow. I'm guessing that Parson's caster special came with whatever mechanism plugged him into Erfworld's system.
ManaCaster
 
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:06 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby ManaCaster » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:14 pm

Lilwik wrote:Perhaps there is some secret that the Arkendish has revealed to Charlie that we don't know yet, and once Parson discovers this secret he'll see a new possibility for all of Erfworld that we can't even begin to guess.

Maybe Parson will figure out how to deal with the upkeep problem, thus preventing Erfworlders from having to kill each other. Then he'll use the Arkendish to create a universal connection between everyone, designed to force everyone to understand and empathize with one another. And then, if the enforced Fate theory is true, he'll alter it to look after everyone, keep everything balanced, prevent any dangerous madmen from coming into being, etc.
ManaCaster
 
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:06 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lilwik » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:22 pm

ManaCaster wrote:The problem with that theory is, the text update that revealed his casting skill described casting as a special, manipulable, sense. It is impossible for a human to "learn" an entirely new sense into being.
That's impossible for a human in Stupidworld, but Parson is affected by magic in Erfworld, and I think it's clear that what he was sensing was what any caster would sense when reading the scroll as a magical effect caused by the scroll. It's what allows Jack to read a Healomancy scroll even though he isn't a Healomancer; the scroll gives him instant awareness of what he needs to know by scroll magic. In this case I'm not at all sure that the awareness that Parson had was a true sense, since it seemed to tell him what the scroll wanted him to think rather than the truth. We know Isaac looked at the scroll while it was open and yet couldn't be sure what the scroll would do. Perhaps that was because Isaac wasn't blindly accepting the knowledge the scroll would magically put into his mind, especially from a Carnymancy scroll. Or maybe Isaac was lying because he didn't want Parson to leave Erfworld.

ManaCaster wrote:It would have to be surgically attached somehow. I'm guessing that Parson's caster special came with whatever mechanism plugged him into Erfworld's system.
The interesting thing about that is that Parson hasn't been given even the senses that all Erfworlders have. Parson can't even see the boundaries between hexes.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Zeku » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:41 pm

These posts that sort of quietly, insanely, comment on 'peace' as if it were a observable or tangible thing that can exist in a real universe-they unnerve me.

Peace is a festering lunacy in the imagination of a hippymancer, born from overindulgence in sorceries. 'Pharmaceuticals' is the modern term I believe.

I would imagine peace can exist within an individual, especially if you take some liberties with it's meaning. But peace cannot exist outside the individual, because a group of living things is not itself a living thing. Order decreases, and entropy increases, once strict obedience to instinct and genetic instructions are set aside.

The entire purpose of our existence has been demonstrated, through all measurable sets of observations, to be self-preservation, increasing our property or power, or destroying obstacles around us. The only thing that could possibly create peace is an overarching ruleset that mimics our genetic code, but on a social level. In other words, an absolutely powerful tyranny of some form.

This reminds me of the Fate discussion. Please--please don't discuss arbitrary concepts like "peace" without at least nodding to the concept that peace must have a highly specific 'form.' It cannot be a 'goal,' because a goal must (again) have a specific form. (This is like rule #1 of goal-setting.)
Zeku
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:35 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lipkin » Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:35 pm

Unlead units auto-attack non-allies. This is a rule that would need to be broken to achieve peace.

But it's possible that peace in this case could mean lack of war. Still conflict, but not on the massive worldly scale Erf is constantly in.
User avatar
Lipkin
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 1061
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Corieu and 6 guests