Book 2 – Page 114

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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby 0beron » Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:51 pm

Lipkin wrote:Unlead units auto-attack non-allies. This is a rule that would need to be broken to achieve peace.

Easy solution: every side becomes part of a single alliance. In fact, this solves pretty much every mechanical barrier to peace. Multiple sides that are as big as they can be before the point of diminishing schmuckers, and they ally. No conflict from unled units, and upkeep problems go away too. The two biggest barriers to peace from a game-mechanics perspective are solved.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lilwik » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:00 pm

Lipkin wrote:Unlead units auto-attack non-allies. This is a rule that would need to be broken to achieve peace.
That's not actually a law of Erfworld. It was presented to Parson as a law and he reported it that way in an early klog, but really it seems that they only auto-attack because they are given orders to do so. Scouts hide instead of auto-attacking, and I expect any unit can be given any orders, limited only by the intelligence of the unit. I think the difference between commanders and non-commanders is that commanders are able to use their own judgement instead of strictly following orders, which is why commanders have duty while non-commanders have only loyalty.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lamech » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:16 pm

The have a near overpowering urge to attack, but if given orders to the contrary they won't. (They probably aren't happy about it.) Okay they probably have some measure of "free will" and could potentially attack anyway or refuse to attack even if they have or lack orders. Or they could attack their friend. Or turn. Or wander away and have a picnic.

Point is unled units want to murder everything labeled "enemy". Which means even if an order will sort of do the trick, I don't think that it is good long term. Everyone seems to have some free will, constantly making them place nice with people they hate... not good.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby 0beron » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:23 pm

Lilwik wrote:Scouts hide instead of auto-attacking.
That's because scouts are the special exception, not the rule.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Tonot » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:27 pm

Zeku wrote:. Please--please don't discuss arbitrary concepts like "peace" without at least nodding to the concept that peace must have a highly specific 'form.' It cannot be a 'goal,' because a goal must (again) have a specific form. (This is like rule #1 of goal-setting.)



Ok. Of course, that is what I did. I said he has to turn everyone in the world to the same thing ( uncroaked subjects to his Rule ) then give them, not an arbitrary concept, but a direct order. "No conflict, ever".

This isn't saying anything about "peace" being only a goal, or an abstract concept in the real world. It is his previous stated aim in the artificial Erf-world, and if he makes it an order to his subjects, how is that abstract any more than "If you are attacked or obstructed, engage" is an abstract concept. Or, in point of fact, any more than war is an abstract concept?. If you can dismiss "peace" as merely groups of people fooling themselves as to their philosophy and life's work, why can't I dismiss war the same way?.

Lipkin wrote:Unlead units auto-attack non-allies. This is a rule that would need to be broken to achieve peace.


If he kept fighting till everyone was uncroaked under his command, there would be no non-allies, surely?.

In a world where there was only "one" side, the skirmishes with barbarians or wild animals would not really count as "war" would it, more like attacks by nature such as storms, just natural events you would deal with like people deal with ants nests.

Edit to add, I agree however that his killing everyone and uncroaking them seems a particularly unhandy and cruel way of going about things. It isn't what I expect would happen, just how I would go about it, but then I dig ditches and build fences for a living, i don't do subtle as a rule. :) I actually expect to be surprised again with the authors ingenuity and invention, and him finding a more elegant solution.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby YesNinja » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:36 pm

Zeku wrote:These posts that sort of quietly, insanely, comment on 'peace' as if it were a observable or tangible thing that can exist in a real universe-they unnerve me.

Peace is a festering lunacy in the imagination of a hippymancer, born from overindulgence in sorceries. 'Pharmaceuticals' is the modern term I believe.

I would imagine peace can exist within an individual, especially if you take some liberties with it's meaning. But peace cannot exist outside the individual, because a group of living things is not itself a living thing. Order decreases, and entropy increases, once strict obedience to instinct and genetic instructions are set aside.

The entire purpose of our existence has been demonstrated, through all measurable sets of observations, to be self-preservation, increasing our property or power, or destroying obstacles around us. The only thing that could possibly create peace is an overarching ruleset that mimics our genetic code, but on a social level. In other words, an absolutely powerful tyranny of some form.

This reminds me of the Fate discussion. Please--please don't discuss arbitrary concepts like "peace" without at least nodding to the concept that peace must have a highly specific 'form.' It cannot be a 'goal,' because a goal must (again) have a specific form. (This is like rule #1 of goal-setting.)



Mmm...no. I think everyone here is intelligent enough to realize that by 'peace' we mean 'not-killing'. There's really no need to try and over-complicate things (or vaguely belittle others discussing a rather simple concept).



On another note: I do think that this is going to take something more than making an alliance with every side, or even unifying everyone under one side. Treachery happens, and people can even break off and form new sides. Something very drastic is going to happen if peace is ever to be achieved. If it even CAN be.


(On another, even side-ier, note: I do think that eventually Stanley is going to need to be croaked. Right now HE is the biggest threat to Parsons life, considering he could disband him with a thought. In fact, in Book 1 they talked about how failure to automatically follow orders WOULD disband him instantly.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby mroozee » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:01 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Unlead units auto-attack non-allies. This is a rule that would need to be broken to achieve peace.
That's not actually a law of Erfworld. It was presented to Parson as a law and he reported it that way in an early klog, but really it seems that they only auto-attack because they are given orders to do so. Scouts hide instead of auto-attacking, and I expect any unit can be given any orders, limited only by the intelligence of the unit. I think the difference between commanders and non-commanders is that commanders are able to use their own judgement instead of strictly following orders, which is why commanders have duty while non-commanders have only loyalty.


I agree. From Book 0, Episode 045, "Twice, [Jillian had] spotted enemy units and had to double back, costing her more move and probably exposing her position again. She’d seen a stack of six Haffaton soldiers and a patrol of distracted-looking High Elves, and wasn’t sure if she’d been spotted." Jillian was on foot in the woods at this point in the story.

If we accept auto-attack as a rule, how could Jillian be unsure if she were spotted or not?

With effort we can make both the narrator's comment about Jillian's thoughts and the auto-attack rule mesh. For an unlead stack under the auto-attack rule, basically spotted = auto-attacked (and in this case) = Jillian knowing she'd been spotted. It's possible that the narrator meant something like, "Jillian knew she wasn't attacked by either group meaning that the soldiers definitely didn't see her and that either the Half Elves didn't see her or they had a commander there who chose not to attack." but that reading seems unlikely to me. It's also possible that the narrator is saying that Jillian doesn't know about the auto-attack rule (extremely unlikely, IMO) or that the soldiers attacked and she didn't notice (also extremely unlikely though conceivable given that she fled). Much more likely, IMO, is that either: 1. the soldiers might not be able to recognize her as an enemy unit because she was a fugitive (we have seen no such rule suggested), 2. units don't have to auto-attack if there is something preventing them from reaching their target (nothing in the story or rules suggests this) or 3. the soldiers might have had other standing orders - observe and fight only if attacked. I go with 3.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lilwik » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:26 am

mroozee wrote:3. the soldiers might have had other standing orders - observe and fight only if attacked. I go with 3.
I agree. Either patrolling soldiers can be ordered to not attack the enemies they come across, or else there would be no point in sending out unled patrols. If the patrol found anything you'd never hear about it until the battle was done, and if it was something big you'd never hear about it at all. I wouldn't be surprised if warlords do get sent on patrols quite often, but I also expect that unled stacks can be ordered to patrol and retreat to base if they find anything.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Kreistor » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:28 am

Parson is breaking the world. He has now broken the MK.

"Hey Isaac. Thinkagram me a sec?"
"Chief Parson?"
"Okay. Now we go to your place. And figure out how to kill Charlie."
And far away in Charlescomm, where the Arkendish's power over Thinkamancy gives Charlie access to every Thinkagram... Charlie does a faceslap. "Well, boop. That backfired."

So, did Parson intentionally tell Charlie he's so pissed off at the attempted assassination that he wants Charlie to prepare for the upcoming assault? Or does he merely know that Charlie would know he's next on Parson's hit list? .

Or is Parson pushing on Charlie's paranoia in order to get him to pull back for defense, and give Parson room to do something else?

Heh, kinda rhetorical. Book 3 pretty much had to be "The Battle for Charlescomm".

Okay, then shall I resurrect a very old thread? Long ago, someone issued me a challenge. "How would you attack Charlescomm, in Parson's place?" since I had undermined someone else's simplistic attempt. Somewhere in the extra stuff section of the forum is my response. A long, detailed discussion, wherein I promote the idea that Charlescomm now has the missing Gobwins as Natural Allies (tunneling under Charlescomm), suggests Parson needs to identify cities for capture that can produce Mountain capable units for the assault, and perform a combined Air, land, and tunnel assault on the city. Since then, we've gotten a few more details. It is no longer necessary to find cities for producing the correct unit types: cities rebuilt with Stanley's presence produce GK's list, which includes Tunnel capable (and therefore Mountain capable) Spidews, so any GK city can produce Mountain capable units. Spacerock may produce Tunnel capable light infantry (a little speculative, but I think that ground is pretty firm), which gives GK intelligent soldiers and warlords, as Prince Ansom had. GK lost all (or most... I'd have to check that) its Archons (which I had riding Spidews into Tunnels, since Knights can mount up) which hamstrings Parson, but he now has Ace (who can hopefully produce useful accessories, with Parson's Earthworld knowledge guiding creativity). Anyway, I've already done it once, so it's something the readership can do while waiting for B3. Obviously, just relying on Wanda decrypting dead Archons is a pretty boring story, so it'll be a lot more complicated than that. And I can monkeywrench you all with one serious question that I didn't consider, since it wasn't part of the challenge.

"How many of Charlie's customers would come to his aid... for the right price?"

At the time of the challenge, Charlescomm was friendless, but now is different, with Parson becoming a hot topic with all the casters in the world, due to his recent actions in MK. This could be a much bigger fight than my original "superficial" analysis suggested. This fight may involve a pretty big chunk of Erfworld's Sides. And that would fit Marie's comment about this being the last War. It just might be so big it drags in everyone, since many have a reason to keep Charlie around (if he hired out to them), or have a beef with him (if he fought against them).

And, of course, it could wind up with a convergence of the four attuned Arkentools, and a solution to whatever problem Parson was destined to solve. Three will be there: all we need is the Shoes showing up. Perhaps the end cometh: after all is said and done, who can compete against a GK that has removed the Arkendish from the list of enemy resources?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Doctor Foreman » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:45 am

Zeku wrote:These posts that sort of quietly, insanely, comment on 'peace' as if it were a observable or tangible thing that can exist in a real universe-they unnerve me.

Peace is a festering lunacy in the imagination of a hippymancer, born from overindulgence in sorceries. 'Pharmaceuticals' is the modern term I believe.

We're commenting on peace in a fictional universe, not a real one. There's no need to get dickish.

I would imagine peace can exist within an individual, especially if you take some liberties with it's meaning. But peace cannot exist outside the individual, because a group of living things is not itself a living thing. Order decreases, and entropy increases, once strict obedience to instinct and genetic instructions are set aside.

The distinction between a living thing and a group of living things is not universally agreed to be as clear-cut as you're making it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby BakaGrappler » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:23 am

I think Parson will end war, by ending the concept of "Sides." He will break the laws of national identity, and thus everyone will cease to have a side they belong to, and everyone will cease to have a side they are at war with. Everyone will just be.

Of course, Parson will have to break a whole lot of rules in order to reach that state. Like how he broke the rules about no profanity.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Pokota » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:38 am

We know that Charlie can hack Thinkagrams, but let's take a moment to think (ha) about this.

Charlie, even with the Arkendish, needs to know that a Thinkagram is happening before he can hack it. A short thinkagram like this? Not likely to be hacked quickly enough.

He may be omniscient, but he's not all-knowing.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Oberon » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:22 am

Kreistor wrote:Okay, then shall I resurrect a very old thread? Long ago, someone issued me a challenge. "How would you attack Charlescomm, in Parson's place?" since I had undermined someone else's simplistic attempt. Somewhere in the extra stuff section of the forum is my response. A long, detailed discussion, wherein I promote the idea that Charlescomm now has the missing Gobwins as Natural Allies (tunneling under Charlescomm)[...]
Everything we know about Charlie tells us that this is a stupid idea. Charlie has no units other than archons and golems, there is no way he'd ever allow gobwins in his city. Doubly so since we also know that gobwins have on at least one occasion turned against their allies and cast down the ruler of the side.

El_Chupacabra wrote:Barring, of course, somehow Charlie calling in an absurd number of favors and the next book is "Dogpile on Parson" for 150+ pages. We don't know, but it's possible his contracts had some sort of reciprocation clause that could "draft" forces from empires far afield.
Charlie has no favors to call in. He deals in cold, hard shmuckers, and deals so hard with his customers that they tolerate him only as much as they need him. He could possibly pay for support, but you can be sure that anyone willing to aid him will set a price very dear.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Zeku » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:42 am

or vaguely belittle others


dickish


I can make wimpy assertions with wimpy words, and strong assertions with strong words. I prefer the latter since it is more fertile ground for discussion. Get thicker skin.

Describing the specific form of peace is the center and the true value of these discussions, if "peace" is the topic. Defining our terms exactly and making logical determinations is the only thing we can accomplish here.

Im fairly confident (just my opinion) that the comic is going to define "peace" as unification under a single nation. Not only is it much simpler to present within comic, but it's also absolutely pregnant with real-world parallels, including the wonderful police state we're building in the more civilized parts of the world, along with decades of rhetoric about unity, diversity, one world slavery, etc.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Kreistor » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:50 am

Oberon wrote:Everything we know about Charlie tells us that this is a stupid idea. Charlie has no units other than archons and golems, there is no way he'd ever allow gobwins in his city. Doubly so since we also know that gobwins have on at least one occasion turned against their allies and cast down the ruler of the side.


Well, look at that. First sentence in and I'm being called stupid. Anyone still want to still claim I'm at fault for my nastier arguments? Do I get to take off the kid gloves?

1. Charlie ruled a perfectly normal Side long before he ruled Charlescomm. He knows the value of Natural Allies from previous experience.
2. The Archons that provided the intel on Charlescomm died at the Volcano Uncroak, and the Gobwin issue began after the end of B1. That's why they can provide no intel on the issue.
3. Charlie is smart, and capable of change. We can see that in his attitude change after his daughter attempted his demise, and his shift in command style in the creation of Charlescomm.

There is nothing "stupid" about obeying Sun Tzu's "Know yourself and your enemy and you will never lose." When your enemy has intel on your force demographics, change your force demographics. Thus they prepare incorrectly. Charlie will have different forces than the Archons told Parson about. Especially now that Charlie knows Parson wants him dead.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby 0beron » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:56 am

Kreistor wrote:Well, look at that. First sentence in and I'm being called stupid. Anyone still want to still claim I'm at fault for my nastier arguments? Do I get to take off the kid gloves?
Hey now, remember who you're talking to. Hearing that from Ohberon should be old hat by now. Also note that it was your IDEA that was called stupid, not you. There's no need to parse sentences and make up a personal insult where none was made.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Kreistor » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:59 am

Pokota wrote:Charlie, even with the Arkendish, needs to know that a Thinkagram is happening before he can hack it. A short thinkagram like this? Not likely to be hacked quickly enough.

He may be omniscient, but he's not all-knowing.


Actually, no he doesn't. He hacked this Thinkagram
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-08-04.jpg

which we see here:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-09-15.jpg

It's the only way for Charlie to have the intel that he could access that informed him Parson is CW. No one else magically knew who GK's new CW was. He didn't know that Thinkagram would happen. It is also how he knew Parson would use the MK, since Wanda needed to capture the portal.

And, if you don't accept that, there's another. Jojo is Charlie's. He may be Thinkagramming to Charlie throughout this entire event. He is there to hear Parson request the Thinkagram, and thus Charlie would know to hack Isaac immediately.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Kreistor » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:08 am

0beron wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Well, look at that. First sentence in and I'm being called stupid. Anyone still want to still claim I'm at fault for my nastier arguments? Do I get to take off the kid gloves?
Hey now, remember who you're talking to. Hearing that from Ohberon should be old hat by now. Also note that it was your IDEA that was called stupid, not you. There's no need to parse sentences and make up a personal insult where none was made.


Sorry, but that's not a valid interpretation. The "it's the idea called stupid, not the idea-maker" argument has never been accepted on any forum as a valid dodge around anti-Flame War rules.

And, besides that, I'm only using the same standard applied to me. People think I'm whatever they happen to believe, but I have only once directly insulted a person on this forum. People's view of me is based on my language, and my treatment of peoples' ideas, not on a foundation of direct insult towards individuals.

Besides, my methods are far more creative and subtle than that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby drachefly » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:09 am

Sojiko wrote:I just wanted to say that Jack's new look works great, those color relly agree with him, but Ace has no such luck.


Agreed. Ace was just right before. This... probably fits his mental state too.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby 0beron » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:12 am

Kreistor wrote:Sorry, but that's not a valid interpretation. The "it's the idea called stupid, not the idea-maker" argument has never been accepted on any forum as a valid dodge around anti-Flame War rules.
Well then let me know when a flame war breaks out, cus I sure as hell don't see one right now, I just see someone being needlessly defensive. I'll also add in that we don't HAVE flame war rules here, just a very broad "don't be a dick" rule. And I don't know what sheltered part of the internet you might be living if you try to argue that "calling someone's idea stupid" is classified as being a dick.
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