Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:55 pm

None of that explains how she comes to the realization that fate was simply delayed, not changed. If Jillian doesn't kill Olive and goes back to FAQ, and then FAQ is destroyed by Stanley while she is pursuing her own fate because she thinks it is inevitable.... how does that make Jillian killing Olive inevitable? She still hasn't killed Olive. And FAQ fell because of her, not because of Jillian's fate. It just... the sequence and cause-effect is totally out of line in that whole scenario it's actually hard to try and argue against it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Whispri » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:06 pm

Banhammer's as evil as he is stupid really. How many will fall because of him? He's almost certainly doomed the Side. I can't help but think that, given that Rulers have to obey Chief Warlord's in some circumstances, that Banhmamer may, paradoxically enough, be in rebellion against Faq.

Beeskee wrote:I had an idea while reading this latest update - if the heroine buds can cause mass hallucinations, some of the things we accept as historical fact may be incorrect.

Quite possible. There are only four people who have to get out of this City alive.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Hatu » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:09 pm

If Banhammer won't accept testimony from Wanda alone, isn't willing to sit through extensive evidence, and would still withhold judgement on the off chance Olive could be redeemed, I have to wonder why he held the trial in the first place.

I mean, the fact that Wanda has an axe to grind doesn't seem material to the case. If Olive is innocent, then of course Wanda must have a grudge to settle; if Olive is guilty, again, of course Wanda would hold those crimes against Olive. So what difference does Wanda's animus make? The question was always whether Olive committed the crimes alleged, and now Banhammer says those crimes don't matter.

Sigh. It seems Banhammer is simply incapable of even the slightest bit of pragmatism. No wonder Jillian despises him.

-H
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Jabberwocky » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:27 pm

*bangs head*

Loj, Loj, Loj.. I realize that your big head is below par when it comes to thinking, but your little head is even worse at it!

And didn't these philosophical debates touch upon certain essential factors in Erfworld such as Duty and Loyalty? Or was it like college, just a bunch of wankers engaging in mutual mental masturbation? Because seriously, if they'd spent any time on those things, Loj should have an idea what can happen if a high Duty and low Loyalty unit decides that you're seriously hurting the side.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby davidj » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:38 pm

I think Banhammer was rationalizing a personal desire not to croak Olive. Much like the late Tommy Firebaugh's wishful thinking about her.

Banhammer does seem to be exceptionally good at rationalization and wishful thinking.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Arky » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:40 pm

Hatu wrote:If Banhammer won't accept testimony from Wanda alone, isn't willing to sit through extensive evidence, and would still withhold judgement on the off chance Olive could be redeemed, I have to wonder why he held the trial in the first place.

I mean, the fact that Wanda has an axe to grind doesn't seem material to the case. If Olive is innocent, then of course Wanda must have a grudge to settle; if Olive is guilty, again, of course Wanda would hold those crimes against Olive. So what difference does Wanda's animus make? The question was always whether Olive committed the crimes alleged, and now Banhammer says those crimes don't matter.

Sigh. It seems Banhammer is simply incapable of even the slightest bit of pragmatism. No wonder Jillian despises him.

-H


He's got his principles, but it does make it pretty pointless to have commenced the trial and to call Charlie if he's not going to allow Olive to be executed no matter what. Why even have the trial?

He also seems to be under the delusion of Olive joining his Court to be redeemed despite the fact that she already declined to turn.

I assume the answer to this behaviour is really that he's still under Olive's magical influence, although it could be that he wishfully thought that the trial would clear her and then when it did not he had to come up with a new reason not to execute her. He doesn't need magical influence to be an idiot.

I wonder if Olive can cast while a prisoner? This drug haze seems like her work.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Lilwik » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:50 pm

Arky wrote:I wonder if Olive can cast while a prisoner? This drug haze seems like her work.
Surely Jillian would have mentioned it by now if Olive were still an enormously dangerous high-level caster while she is in chains. That seems like more than enough reason to croak Olive if true, so I strongly suspect that it's not true. Somehow this smoke is probably not Olive's direct doing.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby OneHugeTuck » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:03 pm

Lilwik wrote:Don't forget that some ruler of Haffaton needs to be killed by Jillian eventually. We don't know which ruler and we don't know when, but I doubt Jillian will leave Haffaton before fulfilling her destiny somehow.


Techhnically, Banhammer is the ruler of Haffaton right now (obviously not -the- ruler, but still). Hopefully Jillian kills him, for being so stupid. That would fulfill the prophecy.

Happily, the LSD haze ending made up for the stupidity of disbanding Jillians expensive and powerful mount instead of just ordering to let Olive go or <insert any of a number of any other options here>.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:05 pm

I would strongly suspect the fire is Charlie's doing. Not only because he obviously has some interest in Olive, but also because he seems to have some interest in the garden. Maybe he wanted to destroy it, or at least some part of it, and saw this as his chance. Or maybe he wanted to claim it, and someone else has foiled his plans now.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Whispri » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:21 pm

You know, if Wanda can cast under these conditions, it would be a good idea to croak the King and some of the Casters and have them guard the City. If stacked with Wanda and Gillian, that might be enough to hold off any direct assault Haffaton could make.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
Beeskee wrote:I had an idea while reading this latest update - if the heroine buds can cause mass hallucinations, some of the things we accept as historical fact may be incorrect.

Like what? The book isn't written from Jillian's point of view or anything (at least not directly) so it isn't as though this was all some big hallucination or something (and it would be a giant middle finger cop out). Instead of any history we know being wrong, I think it more likely that this might be the 'mind wipe' that some people have been thinking is coming to synch up this book with future events. Though it wouldn't make a ton of sense for Wanda or Jillian, since they're both fairly used to the Heroine buds.

As with the other recent updates, still plenty of questions left to answer, and I think we won't get everything till the second to last page or so, with a fairly predictable wrap-up page at the end. And there might even be a few things left unsaid even then, but everything should line up properly.

Edit: Not trying to sound hostile with that opening 'Like what?' just genuinely curious. Shame there isn't inflection in text.

Like Jack's memories of standing with Wanda in the City of Faq for one thing.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby ftl » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:24 pm

This Wanda doesn't have the Pliers yet. She can't decrypt things, only uncroak them - they'll be zombies, not reborn people.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Whispri » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:27 pm

ftl wrote:This Wanda doesn't have the Pliers yet. She can't decrypt things, only uncroak them - they'll be zombies, not reborn people.

So?

Being unable to breath is an advantage in the smoke.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Hatu » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:34 pm

Arky wrote:He's got his principles, but it does make it pretty pointless to have commenced the trial and to call Charlie if he's not going to allow Olive to be executed no matter what. Why even have the trial?


Principles are all well and good, but at a certain point you need to be willing to support them. Banhammer talks a good game, but he just disbanded an innocent gwiffon purely to avoid having to settle the issue between Jillian and Olive once and for all.

Either he's being magically compelled somehow, or he just can't bring himself to actually DO something. Neither paints him in a good light.


I assume the answer to this behaviour is really that he's still under Olive's magical influence, although it could be that he wishfully thought that the trial would clear her and then when it did not he had to come up with a new reason not to execute her. He doesn't need magical influence to be an idiot.

I wonder if Olive can cast while a prisoner? This drug haze seems like her work.


It would explain his brain-dead behavior, but I think it opens an even bigger can of worms. If captured casters really could work serious magic without it even being detected, it's hard to see why anyone would try to capture them at all. Or (as Lilwik points out) why Jillian would allow the farce to get this far, orders be booped.

Granted, things in this comic often take characters by surprise for no good reason. But at least for now, I'd prefer to think Banhammer is a useless buffoon than assume everyone in FAQ is too stupid to live.

-H
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Lilwik » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:05 pm

Hatu wrote:Banhammer talks a good game, but he just disbanded an innocent gwiffon purely to avoid having to settle the issue between Jillian and Olive once and for all.
Let's not forget saving Olive's life; that was another side-effect of disbanding the gwiffon. Even the people who spend a lot of time worrying about animal rights usually don't worry about killing an animal to save a human life, even when it's an innocent animal. Banhammer's only alternative would be talking with Jillian, and each word that passes between them was bringing Olive one missed breath closer to croaking.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Beeskee » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:14 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
Beeskee wrote:I had an idea while reading this latest update - if the heroine buds can cause mass hallucinations, some of the things we accept as historical fact may be incorrect.

Like what? The book isn't written from Jillian's point of view or anything (at least not directly) so it isn't as though this was all some big hallucination or something (and it would be a giant middle finger cop out). Instead of any history we know being wrong, I think it more likely that this might be the 'mind wipe' that some people have been thinking is coming to synch up this book with future events. Though it wouldn't make a ton of sense for Wanda or Jillian, since they're both fairly used to the Heroine buds.

As with the other recent updates, still plenty of questions left to answer, and I think we won't get everything till the second to last page or so, with a fairly predictable wrap-up page at the end. And there might even be a few things left unsaid even then, but everything should line up properly.

Edit: Not trying to sound hostile with that opening 'Like what?' just genuinely curious. Shame there isn't inflection in text.


I don't know the specifics, I'm guessing just like everyone else. :) So I don't have any useful references, it's just speculation.

Obviously I'm not saying every single thing ever is incorrect, but certain parts of the story are written from certain characters' perspectives/memories/whatever. These were already in some doubt since they were presented subjectively, but the parts where everyone involved might have been hallucinating are now a little more in doubt. :D
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Hatu » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:32 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Hatu wrote:Banhammer talks a good game, but he just disbanded an innocent gwiffon purely to avoid having to settle the issue between Jillian and Olive once and for all.
Let's not forget saving Olive's life; that was another side-effect of disbanding the gwiffon. Even the people who spend a lot of time worrying about animal rights usually don't worry about killing an animal to save a human life, even when it's an innocent animal. Banhammer's only alternative would be talking with Jillian, and each word that passes between them was bringing Olive one missed breath closer to croaking.


That's my point: Jillian intended to kill Olive, and Banhammer responded not by resolving the dispute, but by killing a third party. Maybe he views gwiffons as lesser lives, but that didn't come up in all the previous philosophizing. Olive certainly complained about Wanda killing a plant way back when.

Really, I think Banhammer just can't force himself to choose. He hates killing, but as Jillian is demonstrating, that's the reality of Erfworld. He hates the idea that Fate can dictate morality, but he won't outright defy it by disbanding Jillian. He has a bunch of principles, and he's supposedly put some thought into their hierarchy. But when push comes to shove, he's just not willing to commit to one of them over another. So when Jillian pushes him, he takes the easy way out and avoids the question... at the cost of the poor gwiffon.

I'm sure he can come up with some way to rationalize the apparent disconnect, but again, that's my point: Loj is all talk. Presumably, that's why actual peace requires someone like Parson.

-H
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby multilis » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:25 am

Olive folded her manacled hands and looked down at the stone tiles, bowing her head. “I think we could see eye-to-eye on the...territorial matter. But there’s no way I’m yielding the g—”

[focus on garden part of conversation]

“You know...” said Charlie’s voice, “I’ll let you folks sort this out and give me a callback later if you feel you need something. I’ve got other business to attend to, ‘kay? Your Highness, King Banhammer...it’s been an honor and a pleasure, and I wish you luck. Call me back if you need me. I gotta go.”

There was the barest touch of a hand on her own shoulder. “I feel compelled to point out,” said Jack, “that just because he broke the call with me doesn’t mean he couldn’t now be using Thinkamancy to negotiate with her.”

...

Charlie "other business" could truthfully be a direct call to Olive rather than current trial call.

...

Archons and Jack are both quite likely immune to foolomancy part of flowers, Jack may not be immune to thinkomancy effects.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Lilwik » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:30 am

Hatu wrote:That's my point: Jillian intended to kill Olive, and Banhammer responded not by resolving the dispute, but by killing a third party.
You make it sound like he killed a random member of the audience. The "third party" that he killed was the one who was actually croaking Olive on Jillian's orders.

Hatu wrote:Really, I think Banhammer just can't force himself to choose.
What choice are you talking about? The choice that everyone seems to be debating in the story right now is killing Olive or letting her live, and it's clear to me that he has chosen a side in that debate and it didn't seem to require much forcing.

Hatu wrote:He hates killing, but as Jillian is demonstrating, that's the reality of Erfworld.
Banhammer clearly considers it a choice rather than a reality, at least in this case, and he has chosen.

Hatu wrote:He hates the idea that Fate can dictate morality, but he won't outright defy it by disbanding Jillian.
Perhaps he thinks disbanding his own daughter is too high a price to pay to prove a philosophical point.

Hatu wrote:Loj is all talk.
He took action when he disbanded the gwiffon. His words are actions too, because he's the king. He forced everyone into doing the whole trial by words alone, when Jillian would have preferred to croak Olive immediately.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby multilis » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:39 am

I think the biggest flaw of judge is he didn't give jury and prosecution a chance to do their job.

If he was going to call insufficient evidence, he could have done that at start of trial, nothing had changed in evidence now. Jillian was possible witness for Wanda. If Jillian+Wanda verses Olive then enough room that jury might choose to go against Olive.

Normally you also wouldn't have a judge who had been recently sleeping with the defendant, but in this situation no better alternative could be argued by judge.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Jabberwocky » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:48 am

Hatu wrote:. But at least for now, I'd prefer to think Banhammer is a useless buffoon than assume everyone in FAQ is too stupid to live.

-H


Perhaps too 'sheltered' to live. Banhammer has been sitting on his boop for Titan's know how many turns, discussing philosophy with a bunch of equally sheltered twits. He's never had to test his philosophy outside of discussion in court, he's never had to live by it, he's never to face death for the sake of his values. He even pays for the privilege of sitting around by having someone go out and butcher people, a fact which he seems to forget when he's holding court and booping on about wisdom, mercy and the service of truth and justice. :roll:

What we're seeing here, gentlemen, is Banhammer throwing a tantrum. He's already decided that his philosophy is going to win the trial without challenge, Titan's help us, he will hold his breath until he gets what he wants. Hence the mock trial and kangaroo court, his dismissal of Wanda's testament, raising the requirements for proving guilt, the statment that he might let Olive live and boop what she's done in the past and so on.

Banhammer is so far out of his depths that Jacques Cousteau just uncroaked himself so he can ask what kind of deep sea life Loj is seeing all the way down there.



As for the Garden.. A ruler can issue thinkamancy orders. Were I Olive and thus fully aware of the g'inormous Hippiemancy trap waiting out there, I'd have mentally ordered my garden guardians to set if off the moment things turned grim. Or when I was sat upon by a gwiffon.
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