Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby No one in particular » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:14 am

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:None of that explains how she comes to the realization that fate was simply delayed, not changed. If Jillian doesn't kill Olive and goes back to FAQ, and then FAQ is destroyed by Stanley while she is pursuing her own fate because she thinks it is inevitable.... how does that make Jillian killing Olive inevitable? She still hasn't killed Olive. And FAQ fell because of her, not because of Jillian's fate. It just... the sequence and cause-effect is totally out of line in that whole scenario it's actually hard to try and argue against it.

What? No, I was saying that Fate was changed, and for the worse. This is not new to Wanda's philosophy of Fate.

In IPTSF 54, Wanda told Jillian she was Predicted to croak the Haffaton Ruler.
In IPTSF 55, Jillian asked why Olive didn't have her croaked, and Wanda explained that "She could try. But it would be a dire mistake. Either something would go wrong and you would escape again, or you would perish. But then, something worse would take your place. Worse for her, I mean. Some instrument of Fate that Olive would like even less than you. And she certainly doesn’t like you. Olive knows she would suffer, for having turned away from Fate.” (emphasis added by me)

I'm saying that Wanda will rationalize the tragedy of Faq's fall by saying that it was because Jillian didn't croak that Olive, and so Fate made it much worse than otherwise would've been.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Menas » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:41 am

Yes, can Olive or King Banhammer just die now please? They're both too irritating to let live.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Azukar » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:27 am

ShieldOfAthena wrote:God damnit I just want her to die already!


I came to the forum to type a quick post, but it turns out ShieldOfAthena beat me to it, word for word.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Jabberwocky » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:20 am

Menas wrote:Yes, can Olive or King Banhammer just die now please? They're both too irritating to let live.


I do hope the text updates cover Banhammer's death. Wanda throwing down with Banhammer could be extremely awesome, particularly if they have a philosophical debate while she beats him to death with his own arm.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Aquillion » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:29 am

No one in particular wrote:Jillian doesn't croak Olive; Wanda goes to Faq and waits and waits and nothing happens; Wanda becomes a lapsed Fatalist, and thinks Fate can be controlled; Faq falls and Wanda blames herself for doubting Fate; Wanda becomes a born-again Fatalist, even more devout and extreme in her Fatalism than before.
No, Wanda in the present believes that fate is absolute. She believes it cannot be escaped. Seeing Fate happen sometimes and fail sometimes is incompatible with this view; Olive (or some ruler of Haffaton) has to die at Jillian's hands before this story is over, for Wanda's views to be coherent.

(That aside, it'd also be bad because it would completely gut the concept of Fate in a relatively unimportant sidestory. We may one day see someone screw destiny, but it has to wait until near the end of Parson's narrative -- seeing it clearly happen in the backstory would undermine one of the core sources of tension in the main story.)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:13 am

Seems like a weak rationalization on Wanda's part, but Erf is full of those. It just doesn't seem like she'd be -so- utterly convinced of Fate if she simply thought that fate was likely, but could be avoided at a cost.

The fact of her statements in IPTSF 55 was likely that Olive wanted Jillian to kill Judy so she could be Overlady instead, and Wanda was being forced to try and give an explanation to Jillian about why Olive didn't just kill her. A duty/loyalty thing to not betray Olive. Because if she really believes that Olive could kill Jillian, consequences or not, then several of her future actions don't make sense. She actually frightened off a level 10 chief warlord while she was incapacitated because she believed so fervently that she would claim the weapon he was using. She was also utterly convinced that she would survive the dwagonfall because she had things she was still fated to do. These things do not seem to be consistent with a view that someone fated to do something can be killed without fulfilling their fate.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Menas » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:17 am

Jabberwocky wrote:
Menas wrote:Yes, can Olive or King Banhammer just die now please? They're both too irritating to let live.


I do hope the text updates cover Banhammer's death. Wanda throwing down with Banhammer could be extremely awesome, particularly if they have a philosophical debate while she beats him to death with his own arm.


I'd pay to see that. Once she's uncroaked him, this might be even more entertaining.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Lilwik » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:30 am

Aquillion wrote:That aside, it'd also be bad because it would completely gut the concept of Fate in a relatively unimportant sidestory. We may one day see someone screw destiny, but it has to wait until near the end of Parson's narrative -- seeing it clearly happen in the backstory would undermine one of the core sources of tension in the main story.
No, if Fate can be fought then it needs to be foreshadowed. Predictamancers are giving up plenty of indication that Fate is absolute with their total confidence in every Prediction, so there needs to be something to balance that before we get defying Fate thrown at us as an important event. Maybe someone could mention that Fate can sometimes be defied under certain precise circumstances, or maybe Olive could find a way to fight Fate in Book 0 to give us reason to anticipate that Parson might be able to do it in the future.

If we get nothing to indicate that Fate can be defied, then Parson eventually defying Fate would be coming out of nowhere and that would be what really undermines the tension in the story. Just like deus ex machina it would make the plot unsatisfying because it means Parson wins by suddenly developing a previously unknown superpower that lets him defy Fate when no one else ever has.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Mogster2 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:30 am

No one in particular wrote:... this is going to be a Humperdink ending, isn't it?
"Who gets Olive?"
"I don't understand."
"Who kills Olive Branch? At the end, somebody's got to do it! Is it Jack? Who?"
"Nobody. Nobody kills her. She lives."
"You mean she wins? Jesus, grand-pa, why did you read me this thing for?"
"You know, you've been very sick, and you're taking this story very seriously. I think we'd better stop now."
"No, I'm ok. I'm ok. Sit down. I'm all right."

Heh, I was thinking something like History of the World Part 1:
"Stop! I smell something familiar! Yes! Yes! I got an idea!"
"Are you crazy? They're right behind us!"
"Why is she picking flowers?"
"Hero Buds. A whole field of wacky weed."
"They'll be here any minute!"
"Not to worry. We are now armed with mighty joint."

... that didn't work quite as well as I hoped. But you get the idea. :P

Also:
The other casters were inversions and reflections of themselves. The Lady Firebaugh stood as if framed in a mirror, a version of herself that seemed whole and beautiful.

I don't know if the question was ever settled, but it seemed like one of the effects the hero buds had on Jillian was to make (allow?) her to see things outside or beyond Reality. Maybe Jillian isn't just seeing Wanda as she was before she was captured - instead, she's actually seeing the Mirror-Wanda from the start of Book 0. Which also makes me wonder... what do other casters see when they look in a mirror? Is that what Jillian is seeing now?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Mogster2 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:32 am

Lilwik wrote:If we get nothing to indicate that Fate can be defied, then Parson eventually defying Fate would be coming out of nowhere and that would be what really undermines the tension in the story. Just like deus ex machina it would make the plot unsatisfying because it means Parson wins by suddenly developing a previously unknown superpower that lets him defy Fate when no one else ever has.

But will Parson defy Fate? I'm not convinced that he will. After all, it seems not even Charlie can avoid it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:37 am

Lilwik wrote:... lets him defy Fate when no one else ever has.

But if other people have defied Fate before.... what exactly makes Parson doing so special? What makes it worthy of being some big crowning moment near/at the end of the comic? If it has happened before (and with no stupidworlders involved) then why is everyone so convinced of Fate's absoluteness? If Olive/Jillian defies Fate here, it's certain to have happened before in all the tens of thousands of turns of Erfworld. And if they do, it certainly doesn't seem like it would lead Wanda to be the fateist that she currently is.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby zilfallon » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:39 am

Aww boop, there goes my 10 quatloos.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Lilwik » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:59 am

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:But if other people have defied Fate before.... what exactly makes Parson doing so special? What makes it worthy of being some big crowning moment near/at the end of the comic?
That depends on how Fate is defied. Obviously it's not going to be easy. Predictamancers would be the first to know if Fate were being defied frequently, so it must be extraordinarily rare, almost unheard of. It must require some very special circumstances that fit through a tiny loophole in the way that Fate works. If we ever see Fate defied, then we will learn the details of that loophole, and then when it is Parson's turn to defy Fate it will be worthy because Parson will have the Herculean task of lining up all the pieces in just the right way to make the miracle happen again.

On the other hand I don't think that Fate ever will be defied. I think Fate is probably absolute and the main purpose it serves in the story is to give us and the characters carefully chosen spoilers about upcoming events. Fate isn't a faceless villain to be overcome; it is just a tool for increasing dramatic tension.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Amado » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:36 am

All this talk of redemption, plus Olive's escape... I'm starting to fear that Olive is indeed Janis. I'd dislike that particular twist, but this seems like a set-up for it.

I'd been steadfastly holding on to a theory that Banhammer isn't the idiot everyone here has been painting him as. I'd supposed that we were seeing the story from Jillian's POV, and in her view he's an idiot, so, there may have been another side to his reasoning that we weren't party to. But to hold a trial, and partway through the trial conclude "the trial doesn't matter, either way we're going to let her live to try to redeem herself" ...? That's either philosophical cowardice (i.e. rationalization, i.e. stupidity) or it's a plot hole born of Rob's desire to foreshadow Olive's "redemption" as Janis. And I have more faith in Rob's abilities than that.

As it happens, I do believe in redemption, and that would make an interesting story arc. Just, ugh, not Olive, please.

Plus there's he whole problematic issue of the Prediction that Jillian will croak the leader of Haffaton, or words to that effect. The "Olive is Janis" theory has to get around that one somehow.

p.s. gwiffon disbanded! I shoulda bet on it!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby drachefly » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:37 am

if you slay this woman against my will, nothing will ever redeem you in my eyes.


Such a rapid turnaround after such a dramatic speech in favor of redemption of the wicked.

Sigh.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Neko » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:56 am

Jabberwocky wrote:Perhaps too 'sheltered' to live. Banhammer has been sitting on his boop for Titan's know how many turns, discussing philosophy with a bunch of equally sheltered twits. He's never had to test his philosophy outside of discussion in court, he's never had to live by it, he's never to face death for the sake of his values. He even pays for the privilege of sitting around by having someone go out and butcher people, a fact which he seems to forget when he's holding court and booping on about wisdom, mercy and the service of truth and justice. :roll:


Wouldn't it be a delicious irony if Banhammer were actually a kickass Warlord before be became its ruler? Either of another side, and decided to spin off Faq (like Haffaton's history). Or in a similar arrangement to Jillian where he went out and did merc work to fund the kingdom? I don't know how this quatloo thing works, but I'd bet that he's seen so much death and destruction in his former life that he INTENTIONALLY founded Faq to try to avoid as much of that as he could - to make pocket utopia last as long as he could. Really - dude just flung a Marble bench across a courtyard and broke it during his tantrum. Those things are heavy. Maybe his real disappointment with Jill is that she relishes the killing, and desires no other path.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby kiyote » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:57 am

Jabberwocky wrote:
Menas wrote:Yes, can Olive or King Banhammer just die now please? They're both too irritating to let live.


I do hope the text updates cover Banhammer's death. Wanda throwing down with Banhammer could be extremely awesome, particularly if they have a philosophical debate while she beats him to death with his own arm.


You do realize that this can't happen, right? Jillian was heir to FAQ when FAQ fell, not the ruler, and Banhammer is shown to be leading a circle with Wanda in it way back in book 1.

Banhammer survives this, though safe quatloons are on Olive doesn't...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby Zeku » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:13 am

drachefly wrote:
if you slay this woman against my will, nothing will ever redeem you in my eyes.


Such a rapid turnaround after such a dramatic speech in favor of redemption of the wicked.

Sigh.


I don't know if it was intentional or not, but you've got to admit it's an amazing characterization of Banhammer. And all people, really.

People decide how they want things to go, usually based on their own narrow preferences, but then they make the moral error of believing that they're doing it for some other, more noble reason.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby BCCroaker » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:30 am

Banhammer isn't the ruler of Haffaton, Olive is. Banhammer is the ruler of El-Efbaum as a Faq city.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 070

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:51 am

BCCroaker wrote:Banhammer isn't the ruler of Haffaton, Olive is. Banhammer is the ruler of El-Efbaum as a Faq city.

...not even. Banhammer is the Ruler of FAQ, that happens to hold the city of El-Efbaum as it's new capital. Tiny distinction, but cities don't have rulers, sides do.
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