Summer Updates – 046

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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby Gez » Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:36 pm

Quanton wrote:Is this the first time Rob's used the spelling 'Schmuckers' instead of 'Shmuckers'? Is that a typo?

Yet "schmuckers" looks more correct.
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby BoopingCynic » Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:46 pm

raphfrk wrote:
Graydon wrote:I'm not asserting that a mancer could not be an overlord; I'm noting that you can't become an ruler/overlord unless you are already royal (and thus very expensive to pop) or your existing ruler/overlord promotes you. If Charley was not already royal (and from Don King's comments, I'm going to say he was definitely not royal), and didn't get promoted to heir by a then ruler/overlord, he can presumably hold the city by possession (he, personally, is in it, and has no opposition there) but can't do other, overlord things, like appoint/create warlords, accept the service of mancers, or, most important, have units do the natural thinkamancy version of Duty toward him as their legitimate ruler. The only reliable units are the Dish-derived ones.


Barbarian warlords can also claim cities. I think if Charlie was a barbarian, then he could claim a city.

If a warlord claims a city, then it is presumably added to the side that he is part of. Barbarians aren't part of a side (or at least they are Rulers of their tiny 1-stack side).

However, if he was a barbarian caster, then maybe he might have been prevented from claiming the city as only warlords can do it.


But it might be possible that Charlie was a caster who because of his obvious intellect was made Chief Warlord then split of and started a side after finding the Arkendish :roll: .
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby Lamech » Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:59 pm

There are only a few kinds of sides we know of...

1) Normal overlord controlled sides-This does not explain the archons, or Charlie not leaving.

2) Neutral Sides-these sides don't get a turn and are normally "frozen". But neutral cities are unfrozen if an enemy appears.If this is the case, it would mean some enemy is trapped somewhere in the city, making the city free to act. Of course they still don't get a turn so the archons must be nominally on a differant side; like on the side of the "enemy" trapped somewhere. Maybe they are the "enemy". In fact, the city would have to be nominally under the control of the "enemy" because city production doesn't work. This explains Charlie only making archons and him not leaving the tower. (If he does in fact exist at all.) It also explains the not capturing cities as they are not worth the extra income.

3) Natural Sides- these sides don't have overlords, and they normally lack cities. But they can claim cities. We don't know what a city does for them. If gobwins can't produce new unit types after capturing a city this may explain the archons. It also explains not capturing new cities if they are fairly useless; any income must be realitivly small and not worth the enemies.

2 is highly complicated and 3 involves speculation and 1 explains nothing; all these theories suck.

P.S. When I said Charlie may be a group I didn't mean there was no one person attuned to the dish and ultimatly commanding everything. I just meant that (s)he distributed his tasks to others.
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby BCCroaker » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:12 pm

I note that Parson didn't ask about the Gobwins and the Marbits.
Would anybody else be able use the bracer? It plugs into parson's digital watch and he programs it from the calculator function, so would an Erfworlder know how to do that? Even if they knew the use of probabilities and percentages Parson has from being a top wargamer.
Charlies location was not given because Erfworld geography is deliberately vague. I saw a comment from somebody at Capclave that Rob definitely wasn't going to give any mapping information. This may be a condition of the world - Parson has forgotten how to do trigonometry!
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby raphfrk » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:15 pm

hajo wrote:But cost aside, security is a concern - if someone can read/hear your messages,
or even just knows who talked with whom, such info can be very valueable.


Right, it is an issue. However, Charlie is possibly trusted to obey the letter of any contact he agrees to.

"I will not remember your messages", might be a little to much for people to believe. OTOH, they might believe that he won't reveal the info to anyone.

The business plan would be to give units and maybe barbarians the ability to send hat-like messages without having to buy a hat pair. Also, it would allow communication with anyone rather than just between 2 hats. It would allow cheap coordination between barbarians "packs", which probably wouldn't care if Charlie knows.
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby Graydon » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:27 pm

raphfrk wrote:
Graydon wrote:I'm not asserting that a mancer could not be an overlord; I'm noting that you can't become an ruler/overlord unless you are already royal (and thus very expensive to pop) or your existing ruler/overlord promotes you. If Charley was not already royal (and from Don King's comments, I'm going to say he was definitely not royal), and didn't get promoted to heir by a then ruler/overlord, he can presumably hold the city by possession (he, personally, is in it, and has no opposition there) but can't do other, overlord things, like appoint/create warlords, accept the service of mancers, or, most important, have units do the natural thinkamancy version of Duty toward him as their legitimate ruler. The only reliable units are the Dish-derived ones.


Barbarian warlords can also claim cities. I think if Charlie was a barbarian, then he could claim a city.

If a warlord claims a city, then it is presumably added to the side that he is part of. Barbarians aren't part of a side (or at least they are Rulers of their tiny 1-stack side).

However, if he was a barbarian caster, then maybe he might have been prevented from claiming the city as only warlords can do it.


Barbarian warlords are, by definition, royal -- all non-royal units on a side disband when the side is defeated. The royals (like Jillian) become barbarians and have to make their upkeep from cash-transaction work or foraging. If Charlie had been a barbarian warlord, he's royal. (And wouldn't call himself "Overlord"....)

I don't think you can have barbarian casters; they seem to return to the Magic Kingdom when not in service. Queen Bea sending her mancers away before committing suicide would indicate that her death would not disband them. (Or she liked them and didn't want to do them in, take your pick, but I think casters don't quite have "side" the way all the other unit types do.)
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:50 pm

Graydon wrote:Barbarian warlords are, by definition, royal -- all non-royal units on a side disband when the side is defeated. The royals (like Jillian) become barbarians and have to make their upkeep from cash-transaction work or foraging. If Charlie had been a barbarian warlord, he's royal. (And wouldn't call himself "Overlord"....)


Except for the barbarian warlords that pop in the wild.
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby Lord Kasavin » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:55 pm

Graydon wrote:Barbarian warlords are, by definition, royal -- all non-royal units on a side disband when the side is defeated. The royals (like Jillian) become barbarians and have to make their upkeep from cash-transaction work or foraging. If Charlie had been a barbarian warlord, he's royal. (And wouldn't call himself "Overlord"....)


http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F099.jpg

No, Stanley's plan was to become a barbarian and then found a new side. Furthermore, nobody thought Jillian was royal until she admitted as much. More likely kings, overlords, and heirs who survive the fall of their sides become barbarians. I'd also wager there are randomly spawned barbarian, and "barbarian" is a catch all for units who don't belong to a side (and natural allies are a type of side that semi-permanently allies with more traditional sides).

I don't think you can have barbarian casters; they seem to return to the Magic Kingdom when not in service. Queen Bea sending her mancers away before committing suicide would indicate that her death would not disband them. (Or she liked them and didn't want to do them in, take your pick, but I think casters don't quite have "side" the way all the other unit types do.)


http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F102.jpg

Guess again. If GK fell while the casters were in the MK then they would have become barbarians. A better guess would be casters can escape through a portal that kills any other unit type (except for unknown reasons, Parson). Hence, Bea let them escape.
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby raphfrk » Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:01 pm

Graydon wrote:Barbarian warlords are, by definition, royal -- all non-royal units on a side disband when the side is defeated. The royals (like Jillian) become barbarians and have to make their upkeep from cash-transaction work or foraging. If Charlie had been a barbarian warlord, he's royal. (And wouldn't call himself "Overlord"....)


That isn't correct. Barbarian warlords pop randomly. In fact, this is what Ansom assumed that Jillian was prior to finding out she was royal.

This isn't included in the book, but is posted on this wiki and on the GITP forum. He makes the point that it would appear like a dues ex machina if a problem was solved by a newly popped warlord. However, now that dwagon popping has been established, warlord popping wouldn't appear quite so rare. If dwagons are 3%, then warlords might be 0.03% or perhaps even lower.

I think that Erf probably started as am empty world with no units (and lots of empty city sites).

As time passed, warlords popped, claimed the city sites and established sides.

It is also possible that Royals aren't really that special. For example, when a non-Royal overlord attempts to pop an heir, there might be a 5% chance of popping a Noble. Likewise, when a Noble Ruler pops an heir, there might be a 5% chance of a Royal.

Thus, the only thing that makes Royal sides Royal is that they have existed for a long time. In fact, a Royal might just be an Heir that can trace its line back more than a certain number of generations.

I don't think you can have barbarian casters; they seem to return to the Magic Kingdom when not in service. Queen Bea sending her mancers away before committing suicide would indicate that her death would not disband them. (Or she liked them and didn't want to do them in, take your pick, but I think casters don't quite have "side" the way all the other unit types do.)


I think only field units disband. Thus as long as the MK counts as a city, the casters wouldn't disband.

However, it isn't clear what happens to general units who happen to be in cities belonging to other sides, when the Ruler dies without an Heir.

Note:

Actually, reading the WoT post, it says that GK can pop most dwagon types, so maybe it is an inherent part of the city. Thus, it is possible that the Hammer decided to attune to Stanley partly because he came from GK.
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby Ancient History » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:38 pm

This might just be me, but I think that the archons made an error in attributing money as Charlie's sole motivation - and that's probably deliberate on Charlie's part. Everything we've seen about this guy screams infojunkie. Recall when he was talking to Jillian that his biggest complaint was not "nobody is hiring me" but "no one is talking to me." With the Arkendish, Charlie is in a rather unique position to be up on current events in Erfworld - but only if people are willing to talk to him.

If this were one of the Civilization games, Charlie would be the player that squeezes everything he can out of tech trading.
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby Gez » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:57 pm

Graydon wrote:Barbarian warlords are, by definition, royal -- all non-royal units on a side disband when the side is defeated.

No.

Units are disbanded if they are out there on the field when they side is defeated and there is no heir. Side defeated, but unit in a city? Becomes barbarian. Side defeated, but unit in the Magic Kingdom? Becomes barbarian. Side defeated, but unit accompanies a heir? Becomes barbarian. Example: Wanda isn't a royal, her side was defeated, but she was in a city at that time, and thus became barbarian before being "turned" by Stanley's victory.

And by the way, unless we assume that royals are automatically Heirs to the throne, with a line and such, there is nothing that says that a royal unit survives if it's out in the field when its side is defeated.

But while we're assuming stuff, it's also possible to assume that if a unit is captured, and the conquerer wants neither to summarily execute it nor to turn it and be burdened by a low-loyalty unit, he can release it as an independent barbarian unit.
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby noxharrington » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:58 pm

Ancient History wrote:This might just be me, but I think that the archons made an error in attributing money as Charlie's sole motivation - and that's probably deliberate on Charlie's part. Everything we've seen about this guy screams infojunkie.


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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby Phædrus2129 » Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:21 pm

Anyone else consider that Charlie might be another Earthworlder? Or at least not originally from Erf? Seems more plausible than the "IS the arkendish" theory.
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby Tharivole » Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:24 pm

That idea has been batted around several times during this thread. Around pages 2 or 3.
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby Tharivole » Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:25 pm

By Ambug666
I am still more and more convinced that Charlie is another person from Parson's world. Just like Parson is naming the streets after familiar things from home, Charlie is naming his archons after familiar women from home. Charlcomm doesn't have a chief warlord because Charlie doesn't know he should have a chief warlord. He doesn't have a Sizemore or Maggie or even a Stanley to explain how the world works to him.

And he's desperately afraid of anyone finding out because he sees it as a vulnerability. I think Charlie may be a touch paranoid, and is Parson is smart, he can start to play on that paranoia to his advantage. That's why Charlie is still talking to Parson, to see how much he has found out. Also, because it's nice to talk to someone from home.


See, this was on page 2.
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby Darkside007 » Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:56 pm

Ancient History wrote:This might just be me, but I think that the archons made an error in attributing money as Charlie's sole motivation - and that's probably deliberate on Charlie's part. Everything we've seen about this guy screams infojunkie. Recall when he was talking to Jillian that his biggest complaint was not "nobody is hiring me" but "no one is talking to me." With the Arkendish, Charlie is in a rather unique position to be up on current events in Erfworld - but only if people are willing to talk to him.

If this were one of the Civilization games, Charlie would be the player that squeezes everything he can out of tech trading.


I dunno. People have to be willing to talk to you before you can sell them. That may be the complaint. However, the deal Charlie offered Jillian indictates he wants intel, but to what purpose (his own security, offers of alliance, or personal curiousity) is unknown.
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby BoopingCynic » Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:06 pm

raphfrk wrote:
Graydon wrote:Barbarian warlords are, by definition, royal -- all non-royal units on a side disband when the side is defeated. The royals (like Jillian) become barbarians and have to make their upkeep from cash-transaction work or foraging. If Charlie had been a barbarian warlord, he's royal. (And wouldn't call himself "Overlord"....)


That isn't correct. Barbarian warlords pop randomly. In fact, this is what Ansom assumed that Jillian was prior to finding out she was royal.

This isn't included in the book, but is posted on this wiki and on the GITP forum. He makes the point that it would appear like a dues ex machina if a problem was solved by a newly popped warlord. However, now that dwagon popping has been established, warlord popping wouldn't appear quite so rare. If dwagons are 3%, then warlords might be 0.03% or perhaps even lower.

I think that Erf probably started as am empty world with no units (and lots of empty city sites).

As time passed, warlords popped, claimed the city sites and established sides.

It is also possible that Royals aren't really that special. For example, when a non-Royal overlord attempts to pop an heir, there might be a 5% chance of popping a Noble. Likewise, when a Noble Ruler pops an heir, there might be a 5% chance of a Royal.

Thus, the only thing that makes Royal sides Royal is that they have existed for a long time. In fact, a Royal might just be an Heir that can trace its line back more than a certain number of generations.

I don't think you can have barbarian casters; they seem to return to the Magic Kingdom when not in service. Queen Bea sending her mancers away before committing suicide would indicate that her death would not disband them. (Or she liked them and didn't want to do them in, take your pick, but I think casters don't quite have "side" the way all the other unit types do.)


I think only field units disband. Thus as long as the MK counts as a city, the casters wouldn't disband.

However, it isn't clear what happens to general units who happen to be in cities belonging to other sides, when the Ruler dies without an Heir.

Note:

Actually, reading the WoT post, it says that GK can pop most dwagon types, so maybe it is an inherent part of the city. Thus, it is possible that the Hammer decided to attune to Stanley partly because he came from GK.


If units pop randomly then there may be a low chance that Charlie was popped in the wild with a say 0.03% chance of being a warlord, a 0.0015% percent chance of being a caster and a 0.0006% chance of being a thinkamancer then he might have been an astronomical chance and because he was a thinkamancer he found and attuned to the dish made an archon went to a city site (Carried by archon).
As for the arkendish it may be the dish is the main part of the tool and he may wear head phones connected to it or it is meant to be hand held but he re-sized it to increase his range and power and now has to stay right next to it in his room (which he'd have to do with the headphones too) making it seem like the dish was talking :ugeek:.
As for Royals it's possible that the "Will of the Titans" is just fate in terms of how many turns/heir generations the side has lasted and slowly the better the heirs get per generation eventually get to noble then royal, kind of a way to introduce evolution into Erfworld yay :ugeek: :D (and no I do not care if offend any creationists, Go Darwin!).
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:37 pm

Phædrus2129 wrote:Anyone else consider that Charlie might be another Earthworlder? Or at least not originally from Erf? Seems more plausible than the "IS the arkendish" theory.


That's an classic theory that came up shortly after Charley first made contact to Parson. :9

But to add something original: Why does Charley have to come from earthworld if he's not an erfworlder? There is very big mulitverse out there, he could come from a complete different world.
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby Graydon » Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:46 pm

raphfrk wrote:
Graydon wrote:Barbarian warlords are, by definition, royal -- all non-royal units on a side disband when the side is defeated. The royals (like Jillian) become barbarians and have to make their upkeep from cash-transaction work or foraging. If Charlie had been a barbarian warlord, he's royal. (And wouldn't call himself "Overlord"....)


That isn't correct. Barbarian warlords pop randomly. In fact, this is what Ansom assumed that Jillian was prior to finding out she was royal.

This isn't included in the book, but is posted on this wiki and on the GITP forum.


Thanks for the ref; I'd missed that.

Doesn't change the point that Charlie might not have been able to auto-promote to Overlord, though; we don't have a basis for believing a caster or regular warlord can do that without intervention from an existing overlord.

It is also possible that Royals aren't really that special. For example, when a non-Royal overlord attempts to pop an heir, there might be a 5% chance of popping a Noble. Likewise, when a Noble Ruler pops an heir, there might be a 5% chance of a Royal.

Thus, the only thing that makes Royal sides Royal is that they have existed for a long time. In fact, a Royal might just be an Heir that can trace its line back more than a certain number of generations.


Royals level faster, have moderately better stats, and just generally seem to be extra-shiny. The statistical effect of "levels faster" over time is going to make them dominate the place.
I don't think you can have barbarian casters; they seem to return to the Magic Kingdom when not in service. Queen Bea sending her mancers away before committing suicide would indicate that her death would not disband them. (Or she liked them and didn't want to do them in, take your pick, but I think casters don't quite have "side" the way all the other unit types do.)


I think only field units disband. Thus as long as the MK counts as a city, the casters wouldn't disband.


That's consistent with Queen Bea sending everybody out in the field, yes. But we don't know if the casters freeze or not when the side ends and the city goes neutral.

Note:
Actually, reading the WoT post, it says that GK can pop most dwagon types, so maybe it is an inherent part of the city. Thus, it is possible that the Hammer decided to attune to Stanley partly because he came from GK.


Or Gobwin Knob can post dragons because it has an overlord with the Arkenhammer, and the comment about the dragons is in the present tense.
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Re: Summer Updates – 046

Postby raphfrk » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:05 pm

Graydon wrote:Royals level faster, have moderately better stats, and just generally seem to be extra-shiny. The statistical effect of "levels faster" over time is going to make them dominate the place.


Also, they can only be popped by a Royal side. The question was what makes a side a Royal side in the first place.

If a side must be Royal to pop Royals, then where does the initial Royal come from.

Royal warlords might also pop randomly and their additional stats might have lead to them dominating Erfworld over time.

My speculation was that a non-Royal side will slowly become a Royal side the longer it exists. This is true in RL too. If you trace most monarchies back far enough, they would have been started by a non-monarch. The longer a monarchy maintains an unbroken line, the more legitimate it becomes.

It also allows Erf to start Royal free and develop Royals as time goes by.

That's consistent with Queen Bea sending everybody out in the field, yes. But we don't know if the casters freeze or not when the side ends and the city goes neutral.


But if they are in a city belonging to another side, then they aren't in a city that has gone neutral. I think they likely are considered barbarians.
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