Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby No one in particular » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:50 pm

0beron wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:That quote seems to be self contradicting. It says ranged attacks can pass the boundary on your turn, then says the same thing happens for some natural abilities like dwagon breath... it can't pass a hex boundary.

No I think the "same goes for natural attacks" is referring to the off-turn issue. He's saying the two things work the same way.

Yeah, that was just me not bolding the line about off-turn shooting since it immediately followed, and I thought it would look weird. I sacrificed clarity of message for the aesthetic of the typography. Mea culpa.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Zeku » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:44 pm

If the jester is the real Banhammer then the arguments presented so far make sense.

So far, I've seen BH as an idiot who is blinded by the charm of Olive. This would explain a very sudden inversion of his opinion now that he's been betrayed. But he's awfully insistent and poetic about it. "What do you have, huntress?" It just seems like an odd thing to say. It would mean that Banhammer sees her as just a hunter, and expects her to have the battle plan already prepared. I'm not sure if I'm reading this properly, because he might just be high and spewing nonsense, or any number of things.

Notice that Jillian mentioned she previously saw Olive as 'a pretty flower' which implies her shockamantic tendencies developed before meeting Wanda.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:21 pm

drachefly wrote:
crex90 wrote:Sizemore seemed appalled (http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/First_Intermission_29) by the idea that time would pass the same in one hex as it does in another.


Not quite. While the hexes are in communication, they can be forced to match up. Being under ranged attack seems like it'd be a form of communication.

I don't think you are right. When hex's are in communication, they are simply in communication, and the time doesn't matter. Maggie says as much.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby drachefly » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:40 pm

That was thinkagrams. I meant more general communication, like when you hold a conversation over a hex boundary. Expository Bridge didn't have any differences in the passage of time from one side to the other as long as they were standing there talking.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lilwik » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:53 pm

drachefly wrote:Expository Bridge didn't have any differences in the passage of time from one side to the other as long as they were standing there talking.
That's true, but it has nothing to do with them talking. As it is explained in Summer Update 29, the variation in the passage of time only happens when units are moving. As long as you are staying within a single hex, time passes just as it does in Stupidworld. The fact that Ossomer and Ansom were each in a separate hex talking across the boundary makes no difference; time moved the same for both of them because they were each staying within his own hex, and that would have been true even if they were hundreds of hexes apart.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby the_tick_rules » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:40 pm

Fear and Loathing in Erfworld.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:02 am

0beron wrote:[*]The trap isn't actually her doing (and she knows that if she doesn't run she'll be blamed and croaked anyway)[/list]

Another possibility is that the trap isn't her doing and she's running because it's dangerous to her, especially if she can't cast her Flower Power as a prisoner.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Morni » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:35 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
0beron wrote:[*]The trap isn't actually her doing (and she knows that if she doesn't run she'll be blamed and croaked anyway)[/list]

Another possibility is that the trap isn't her doing and she's running because it's dangerous to her, especially if she can't cast her Flower Power as a prisoner.


Charlie could have some archons in the fields.. and is burning everything up.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby drachefly » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:14 am

Lilwik wrote:
drachefly wrote:Expository Bridge didn't have any differences in the passage of time from one side to the other as long as they were standing there talking.
That's true, but it has nothing to do with them talking. As it is explained in Summer Update 29, the variation in the passage of time only happens when units are moving. As long as you are staying within a single hex, time passes just as it does in Stupidworld. The fact that Ossomer and Ansom were each in a separate hex talking across the boundary makes no difference; time moved the same for both of them because they were each staying within his own hex, and that would have been true even if they were hundreds of hexes apart.


You're somewhat missing the point, here - if they can talk across the boundary, and see across the boundary, then you can reflect blindingly/damagingly bright light across the boundary. Your bright sun will be in one place, and you can reflect it to them, regardless of what time it is there - and they won't be timeskipping around while you're looking/aiming at them.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Goshen » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:24 am

Morni wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
0beron wrote:[*]The trap isn't actually her doing (and she knows that if she doesn't run she'll be blamed and croaked anyway)[/list]

Another possibility is that the trap isn't her doing and she's running because it's dangerous to her, especially if she can't cast her Flower Power as a prisoner.

Charlie could have some archons in the fields.. and is burning everything up.

Yes! I like this theory. Charlie certainly has a score to settle with Olive, and that kind of behind-the-scenes manipulation is just his style.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:14 am

drachefly wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
drachefly wrote:Expository Bridge didn't have any differences in the passage of time from one side to the other as long as they were standing there talking.
That's true, but it has nothing to do with them talking. As it is explained in Summer Update 29, the variation in the passage of time only happens when units are moving. As long as you are staying within a single hex, time passes just as it does in Stupidworld. The fact that Ossomer and Ansom were each in a separate hex talking across the boundary makes no difference; time moved the same for both of them because they were each staying within his own hex, and that would have been true even if they were hundreds of hexes apart.


You're somewhat missing the point, here - if they can talk across the boundary, and see across the boundary, then you can reflect blindingly/damagingly bright light across the boundary. Your bright sun will be in one place, and you can reflect it to them, regardless of what time it is there - and they won't be timeskipping around while you're looking/aiming at them.

You're assuming light behaves the same way as in Stupid World. Other basic laws of our universe are not the same as on Erf, so who is to say light acts the same? Do eyes see by taking in the reflected rays of light? Or is it natural eyemancy projecting an image of what you are looking at into your brain? Is the a ball of gas? Or is it a glowing disc on the inside of a painted globe? Are there planets in this universe other than Erf? How do those planets move across the sky?


Erf is a world run on magic, not science. Things work because they do. While certainly the scientific method can be used to explore it, things found to be true on Stupid World are far from guaranteed to be true on Erf.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the hex boundary is like a giant tv screen. If someone shines a flashlight at the camera, a beam of light doesn't shoot out of your tv. You can see the various light sources, but they don't extend out of the set. Each hex might as well be it's own show.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:19 am

Lipkin wrote:If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the hex boundary is like a giant tv screen. If someone shines a flashlight at the camera, a beam of light doesn't shoot out of your tv. You can see the various light sources, but they don't extend out of the set. Each hex might as well be it's own show.
Your other points about light's behavior are sufficient to cast doubt on the "giant lazar o' death" idea, but the TV screen analogy is wrong. We do know that physical objects (arrows, units, and breath weapons) all cross the hex boundary. So IF light behaves the same way in Erfworld, yes a beam would shoot across the boundary. But we don't know if it behaves the same.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:23 am

0beron wrote:
Lipkin wrote:If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the hex boundary is like a giant tv screen. If someone shines a flashlight at the camera, a beam of light doesn't shoot out of your tv. You can see the various light sources, but they don't extend out of the set. Each hex might as well be it's own show.
Your other points about light's behavior are sufficient to cast doubt on the "giant lazar o' death" idea, but the TV screen analogy is wrong. We do know that physical objects (arrows, units, and breath weapons) all cross the hex boundary. So IF light behaves the same way in Erfworld, yes a beam would shoot across the boundary. But we don't know if it behaves the same.

Physical objects halt when trying to cross a boundary off turn. I assume light would act the same way. That was what I meant with my tv analogy. Trying to shoot light across a boundary off turn would be like a flashlight on tv. I also thought that maybe light from the sun would not cross hex boundaries, since the sun is in different places in different hexes. But you might be able to tell the position of the sun in the neighboring hex due to shifting light and shadow.

I'm just ruminating at this point. If light/the sun acts differently from hex to hex, it goes to figure that at some point it will appear that the sun is not in your hex, and is coming from a sidelong direction. But it's not. Because it's not in that location for the hex it's looks to be in. I propose that the sun is not real. Light is projected from the boundary of each hex, and does not penetrate the boundary on the other side. Looking into a neighboring hex, you can see sunlight play across things, but you won't be able to see the source, because it isn't coming from your sun. It's like when the source of light is coming off camera in a movie.

But that's just for sunlight. A beam of light produced by a unit would be an attack. It would be stopped off turn by the hex boundary, but be unimpeded on your turn. At least, that's what I figure. I don't think it's an exploit.
Last edited by Lipkin on Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:31 am

Lipkin wrote:Erf is a world run on magic, not science. Things work because they do. While certainly the scientific method can be used to explore it, things found to be true on Stupid World are far from guaranteed to be true on Erf.
I don't think you know what the word "science" means.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Werebiscuit » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:36 am

0beron wrote:
Goshen wrote:But why would Olive spring her trap? Banhammer had acquitted her.
  • Wanda or Jillian might find a way to get her killed later
  • She wants all of FAQ's casters for Haffaton, since she got all of theirs killed or lost.
  • She actually hates Banhammer, has been faking nice up till now cus she was in trouble, and is jumping at the chance to kill FAQ now.
  • The trap isn't actually her doing (and she knows that if she doesn't run she'll be blamed and croaked anyway)



Option 4 Please...
Who was making a deal to get Olive out of her situation....and who had other forces in the area ?

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:11 am

Shai_hulud wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Erf is a world run on magic, not science. Things work because they do. While certainly the scientific method can be used to explore it, things found to be true on Stupid World are far from guaranteed to be true on Erf.
I don't think you know what the word "science" means.

I know what "patronizing" means.

Science is an observation of facts, and what makes Erf function is unobservable. Everything in our world has an answer that can be explained by science, whereas on Erf most things can only be explained by magic. You can explore magic using science, but at some point you are going to reach the point where the only answer for why it works is "it just does."

Erf is an entire world of "A Wizard did It."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby fjolnir » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:26 am

Technically, we're in a world that runs on magic and does not have the scientific method, all the rules we know are rules that are either "just known" like Language, falling, or upkeep or assumed like duty... Parson is actually bringing the scientific method so we can move to a magic world where SCIENCE! such as peasant railguns are possible...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:39 am

Lipkin wrote:off turn.

Ah, I was thinking your TV analogy was a universal case, not off-turn only. Off turn its a more fitting analogy, but when it's not your turn it's someone else's and they could still cross, so I'm not sure I like the use of a TV screen to describe it, but yeah the core point you're making is plausible.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby No one in particular » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:15 pm

Bwa ha ha ha!! I just had a wonderful, delicious thought.

Back in IPTSF 54, Wanda told Jillian "You are Fated to croak the Ruler of Haffaton." Note how that is not the exact Prediction, since a) it's not coming from a Predictamancer and b) it doesn't have the word Predict in it. It has "Fated."

Previously, I'd been quibbling & arguing about how the actual Prediction could've been worded so that Jillian wasn't going to CROAK Olive but just end her reign or stop her bid for world domination or whatever.

Here's my new quibble/idea: the Prediction was along the lines of "[The Warlady important to Wanda] will croak [the Ruler who the Emerald City belongs to]." Or, to clarify: Jillian will croak CHARLIE!

Olive assumed the Prediction meant her or Judy, since Haffaton had claimed the city by the time the Prediction was made. Why didn't Olive abandon the city after hearing the Prediction? Two reasons: a) she thought she could control Fate by staging things so that Judy got croaked, Olive takes over, happy days forever after for her, and b) her Garden was there, and she couldn't move it or recreate it (the buds were made in a link with Olive, Tina & Maxwell, and they're both gone now), and Olive simply cannot imagine trying to take over Erfworld without her Buds these days.

But for all that Judy & Olive have been in el-EfBaum for so long, it's still not their city. They're just living there, you know? Charlie made the city, shaped it and designed it, left his mark on it from his turns as the Wizard. The city, deep in it's signamancy and in it's soul, belongs to Charlie.

So, what's it all mean?
  1. Olive's not guaranteed to die.
  2. Jillian will kill Charlie in the 3rd book.
  3. Parson will NOT kill Charlie in the 3rd book.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:19 pm

I like it, except for the tiny potential wrinkle it puts in my little pet theory: Jillian is gonna get the 'Hammer and attune. I do think Charlie is gonna die, but if it's Jillian who does it that means she'd prolly be killing two important people, and that just doesn't seem as likely to me. And if she kills Charlie, that'd put the 'Dish in her hands.
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