Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Xarx » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:20 pm

Yes, and in the very next update we get this:

And this is still Haffaton’s turn. They will know she is here, and they will send forces.”

Jillian considered the advice. “What do they have that can reach?”

“High Elves, mostly,” said Wanda. “Some uncroaked infantry, a warlord or two.”


So yes, it could be High Elves, but notice how she says they "can reach", not that they're already present. Besides, Jillian would know if there were enemy forces within the city. She would know if one arrow came over the walls.

As for the garden, it's associated with the city without being inside it. I don't see a problem with Jillian being able to sense that. Would you normally expect a farm to sit within city walls?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Mikalyaran » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:36 pm

Xarx wrote:Yes, and in the very next update we get this:

And this is still Haffaton’s turn. They will know she is here, and they will send forces.”

Jillian considered the advice. “What do they have that can reach?”

“High Elves, mostly,” said Wanda. “Some uncroaked infantry, a warlord or two.”


So yes, it could be High Elves, but notice how she says they "can reach", not that they're already present. Besides, Jillian would know if there were enemy forces within the city. She would know if one arrow came over the walls.

As for the garden, it's associated with the city without being inside it. I don't see a problem with Jillian being able to sense that. Would you normally expect a farm to sit within city walls?


Why would Jillian know that about the enemy? Tramennis (who is CW just like Jiallian) doesn't even know what unit his side has remaining in the city let alone the enemies units. He has to ask Dad to find out. And "can reach" is part of Jillians question not Wanda's statement. Wanda is non-specific as to their actual distance. They could be in the garden,o r they could have been max movement away. That doesn't change my point at all. I'm not sure what your point is regarding the location of the garden though. I said it was outside the city proper as a special zone which agrees just fine with what you've just said. I'm just saying it isn't in a different hex.

Or did you mean your post for someone else?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:11 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:The garden is not in another hex. When FAQ captures the city Jillian gets info on the Hex.
http://www.erfworld.com/2013/03/inner-p ... isode-064/
Brand new information about this city was flooding her mind: Level 5, +1 garrison walls, a dungeon zone, +2 ...farm? oh, the garden, +2 tower but no spells left on it... And even with Jack’s crazy Foolamancy view, she could see that the color in the Wizard’s Hall had shifted. The floor was still black, but the puke-emerald was all gone. The curtains hung in proper green, Faq green."

This does nothing to prove that the garden is in the same HEX. It tells us that it is "connected" to the city in a mechanical way, but such a connection does not require that it be in the same hex.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Xarx » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:15 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:Why would Jillian know that about the enemy? Tramennis (who is CW just like Jiallian) doesn't even know what unit his side has remaining in the city let alone the enemies units. He has to ask Dad to find out.

Hm, good point. Jillian does place herself so that she can watch the skies for an incursion. But surely Banhammer would know. Yes, he's an idiot, but failing to mention enemy forces in the city they've just captured seems like malpractice even for him.

Mikalyaran wrote:And "can reach" is part of Jillians question not Wanda's statement. Wanda is non-specific as to their actual distance.

Okay, but Wanda did say "send forces". Which means that they are somewhere else, not present. Efbaum is not on the front, remember.

Mikalyaran wrote:I'm not sure what your point is regarding the location of the garden though. I said it was outside the city proper as a special zone which agrees just fine with what you've just said. I'm just saying it isn't in a different hex.

Oh, I see. So the disagreement is over whether a farm counts as a defensive zone of the city. That's interesting; I don't think we have enough information to answer that yet. It's certainly possible.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Mikalyaran » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:29 pm

Xarx wrote:Hm, good point. Jillian does place herself so that she can watch the skies for an incursion. But surely Banhammer would know. Yes, he's an idiot, but failing to mention enemy forces in the city they've just captured seems like malpractice even for him.


If you have some evidence that a ruler is aware of the number of enemy forces within their city I'd love to see it.

Xarx wrote:Okay, but Wanda did say "send forces". Which means that they are somewhere else, not present. Efbaum is not on the front, remember.


Yes but farms require farmers. So it makes plenty of sense. The specific word choice seem more like Rob withholding information until the right moment. You could absolutely be right though.

Mikalyaran wrote:I'm not sure what your point is regarding the location of the garden though. I said it was outside the city proper as a special zone which agrees just fine with what you've just said. I'm just saying it isn't in a different hex.


Xarx wrote:Oh, I see. So the disagreement is over whether a farm counts as a defensive zone of the city. That's interesting; I don't think we have enough information to answer that yet. It's certainly possible.


I'm not sure what the relevant difference is such that we are disagreeing.

0beron wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:The garden is not in another hex. When FAQ captures the city Jillian gets info on the Hex.
http://www.erfworld.com/2013/03/inner-p ... isode-064/
Brand new information about this city was flooding her mind: Level 5, +1 garrison walls, a dungeon zone, +2 ...farm? oh, the garden, +2 tower but no spells left on it... And even with Jack’s crazy Foolamancy view, she could see that the color in the Wizard’s Hall had shifted. The floor was still black, but the puke-emerald was all gone. The curtains hung in proper green, Faq green."

This does nothing to prove that the garden is in the same HEX. It tells us that it is "connected" to the city in a mechanical way, but such a connection does not require that it be in the same hex.


I don't recall any evidence or even suggestion of such mechanical connections in the comic. The closest thing I've seen is Wanda choosing the word attached here.

http://www.erfworld.com/2013/04/inner-p ... isode-066/

As far as I can tell based on evidence this city is this hex and the farm is part of the city. Are just debating semantics though? What the real difference as far as the story is concerned? To be honest the farm being part of the city and in the same hex just makes so much sense to me I'm not sure what the point is anymore about it not being a part of the city.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Xarx » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:40 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:If you have some evidence that a ruler is aware of the number of enemy forces within their city I'd love to see it.


In this particular case he would, because they would be prisoners. Any Haffaton unit in the city when it fell would have become a FAQ prisoner automagically, and therefore subject to Banhammer's natural thinkamancy. If the Garden were a city zone, then any Haffaton units who were there when the garrison fell would now be in shackles.

Sorry, I should have said that in the first place.
Last edited by Xarx on Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:45 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:As far as I can tell based on evidence this city is this hex and the farm is part of the city. Are just debating semantics though? What the real difference as far as the story is concerned? To be honest the farm being part of the city and in the same hex just makes so much sense to me I'm not sure what the point is anymore about it not being a part of the city.

It matters a LOT, because people are trying to figure out movement rules and what units could do what at this point.
What we have for concrete evidence from the comic is the fact that the Garden is definitely outside of the city walls. Everything that is included in a city itself lies within it's walls.
We have the previous example of Warchalking also:
Summer Update 33 wrote:Ansom broke stack and flew around in the hex...He circled over the rows of green rye beside the road. The farms around this city were its real value. It would be good to reclaim them for Gobwin Knob.
For one, this wording suggests that Farms can even be claimed separately from a city, but more importantly this provides us with concrete proof that the Farm was in a separate hex from the city itself. And that matters.
We also have some Word of the Titans on it from Gencon, but we have enough in-comic evidence that I don't need to delve into that.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Mikalyaran » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:53 pm

Xarx wrote:In this particular case he would, because they would be prisoners. Any Haffaton unit in the city when it fell would have become a FAQ prisoner automagically, and therefore subject to Banhammer's natural thinkamancy. If the Garden were a city zone, then any Haffaton units who were there when the garrison fell would now be in shackles. Sorry, I should have said that in the first place.


0beron wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:As far as I can tell based on evidence this city is this hex and the farm is part of the city. Are just debating semantics though? What the real difference as far as the story is concerned? To be honest the farm being part of the city and in the same hex just makes so much sense to me I'm not sure what the point is anymore about it not being a part of the city.


We have the previous example of Warchalking also:
Summer Update 33 wrote:Ansom broke stack and flew around in the hex...He circled over the rows of green rye beside the road. The farms around this city were its real value. It would be good to reclaim them for Gobwin Knob.
For one, this wording suggests that Farms can even be claimed separately from a city, but more importantly this provides us with concrete proof that the Farm was in a separate hex from the city itself. And that matters. We also have some Word of the Titans on it from Gencon, but we have enough in-comic evidence that I don't need to delve into that.


I'm convinced gentlemen. Ansom's comments and word choices are solid support for Warchalking's farm being outside the city and almost certainly outside El-efbaum as well. I'm still see no reason a city couldn't have a farm zone. But it seems really strange that in http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/IPTSF_Text_50 ... Olive is just letting her chill in the field. Seems like a strange thing to do with a prisoner who she just went to a lot of trouble to secure. Than again, Olive is really hoping she will croak Judy for her and having Jillian in the heart of Haffaton territory, without a dragon, probably with some troops nearby put Olive at ease about it. Plus she can just grab the broom and go get her again.

So cities must extend some kind of zone of control into the surrounding hexes. I wonder how that works in Erfworld. There would have to be some mechanic for it if Jillian got city info on the farm when the city was capped. What's the header on that Word of the Titans gencon entry? I'd like to read it but I don't recall anything in about it from the last time I read through it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:05 pm

In the case with Jillian in the field, Olive is cocky. She trusts her flowers and manipulation to keep Jillian there.

As for Word of the Titans on Farms, it wasn't something published online, it was from a conversation with a fan that was then passed on to all us Erfgame "creators" by said fan. It's not all 100% set in stone yet because that's not how Rob works (don't specify something until you have to) but one thing that is cemented is Farm sites actually being a terrain sub-type that can technically exist "miles" away from a city, and they become linked to the closest city of the side that claims them.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Mikalyaran » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:31 pm

That is cool as hell to know Oberon. Thanks for sharing. Shouldn't someone put it up on the word of the titans though? I feel like I'm missing out by not being able to make it to these cons and such. I'm not complaining mind you (Please keep sharing these tidbits Mr. Balder!) just jealous. I just bought issue one and two of book two so I'm looking forward to the info in the GMTTA but I hope someone beats me to the transcription Rob authorized for that info. I feels sorry for the folks who don't hang around the forums and miss this kind of stuff.

I guess that also means cities don't have to have a zone of control/influence. How does territory work though if that's not the case? Maybe something like a zone of control/influence is the link he mentioned.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:07 pm

You can find the posts in which Exate passed this stuff on to us here and here. As you'll see, some parts of it are still vague and of course it's a 2-step game of telephone, but there are some tidbits that are concrete, and its also interesting to hear the general thought process Rob has on this stuff.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Mikalyaran » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:15 pm

0beron wrote:You can find the posts in which Exate passed this stuff on to us here and here. As you'll see, some parts of it are still vague and of course it's a 2-step game of telephone, but there are some tidbits that are concrete, and its also interesting to hear the general thought process Rob has on this stuff.


Thank again for having those links around. One of these days I need to look at these game rules and play some erf game with you guys. Only way I can get my erf fix besides the updates :)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Kreistor » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:15 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:To capture a city you have to control the garrison, not the whole city. So the units at the gate could have been in the garden zone outside the wall zone of the city hex.


Garden is in fact outside City. See below. But Units have a not insignificant range, so could have been anywhere within many hexes, not next door. it's Haffaton Turn, so Natural Allies can go many Hexes to get to there.

The guys at the gates were probably High Elves for farm the gardens outside the city.


Farms in Erfworld do not require Units. And the Garden is the product of a Thuinkamancer and Florist, and as such are a magic item, for which we would expect specific rules. But the greatest denier of this is that Jillian does not describe Farmers in the garden during her imprisonment there. She describes lots of scenery and mistinterprets people as sky and weather. She'd mention them.

He was clearly hoping to capture her but I bet he'll take the fall of Haffaton just as well.


And what citation can you make to demonstrate the claimed clarity? I think you're basing that on the presumption the units are under Charlie's control rather than Olive's, which is cyclic logic. I just re-read the Charlie section, and all I can see is a territorial dispute being discussed. He has no indication of a desire to capture.

But I've still got no idea what Wanda, Jack, and Jillian know that caused Charlie to put them under NDA's.


Everything about what he was before Charlescomm and the Arkendish. That he was a normal Ruler with normal goals instead of pure mercenary. It makes him a lot more threatening to have that much experience. And the story of his daughter may contain means of control. If the "G" Olive does not speak does indicate an interest in owning the Garden, then Charlie has motives beyond being a mercenary, since it si notably useless for his Archon merc business.

I could just be what we already know but that doesn't seem like that valueable of intel.


Sun Txu: Know yourself and your enemy, and you will never lose.

Charlie is preventing himself from being known, to reduce enemy chance of successfully fighting him.

Further Charlie can't have enough units in the area to take the city I think but that's an entirely meta statement.


Jillian wrote:Jillian clenched her teeth and resolved to disobey, straightening in the saddle. How could he not see the danger in this? She forced her tone lower, calmer. “Look, Charlescomm has forces in the area. I’ve seen them! If Charlie comes at us, I can’t guarantee we’ll be able to hold—”


Jillian thinks he can.

If he did have enough forces why would he bother with NDA's? I won't be surprised if it has to due with an ability to charm/influence/control natural allies at all though since that is a pretty big deal.


Because despite his history, he may truly wish to be a neutral mercenary. Idealism. Real mercs eventually betray and conquer an employer. Charlescomm has been around a long time, and not done that with seemingly endless opportunities. Interfering with, or eliminating, a competing merc Royal Side may dispel belief in his neutrality and threaten a Royal coalition against him.

Parson comments on how pissed Stanley would be if he knew the bracer predicted Charlie was behind the gobwins disappearance, we saw Jitterati get wrecked when their allies betrayed them, and Saline was taken down by them as well. If Stanley hadn't been and heir that would have been the end of GK. The NDA's could be about something else but this does seem the most likely option.


If they are Elves, and somehow Charlie had contracted them, they couldn't talk about it: that's standard in his contracts. No one can learn if Charlie did hire them away, so there's no need for an NDA. They never turned traitor, so no evidence of such an agreement exists, or can be revealed to FAQ at this point.

On the Olive garden's position:
http://www.erfworld.com/2013/07/inner-peace-through-superior-firepower-%E2%80%93-episode-069/ wrote:The trees parted here, and the road ended at—no, was buried beneath—a sunlit field of the pink flowers, and only the pink flowers, stretching as far as she could see. Beyond, in the distance, a city of shining green spires dominated the horizon. Jillian gave it no heed.


http://www.erfworld.com/2012/11/inner-peace-through-superior-firepower-%E2%80%93-episode-052/ wrote:Judy lived in the City of Efbaum, which seemed pretty much empty (she had only ever seen a scarecrow unit and some kind of metal golem guarding it). But Jillian found she couldn’t be there long without getting dizzy and sick. Something about all the shimmering green made her retch. It was the wrong shade or something. She slept outside, on the moss of the stream bank, and ate berries and fruits.


I don't think there's much doubt it's outside the city. At one place it is referred to as a "dungeon", which seems metaphorical in context since it clearly imprisons (which adds to the defense of the city by making that approach dangerous to invaders). Couldn't find it again to quote, but read it earlier today.

Mikalyaran wrote:
Xarx wrote:Hm, good point. Jillian does place herself so that she can watch the skies for an incursion. But surely Banhammer would know. Yes, he's an idiot, but failing to mention enemy forces in the city they've just captured seems like malpractice even for him.


If you have some evidence that a ruler is aware of the number of enemy forces within their city I'd love to see it.


No, they don't. But they do know when forces are in Battlespace.

http://www.erfworld.com/2012/12/inner-peace-through-superior-firepower-%E2%80%93-episode-056/ wrote:“Urgency!” said Dame Branch, letting out a theatrical little laugh. “You have no idea, dear. Faq is in our battlespace this morning.”


But knowing exact forces? Unlikely. Clonely wouldn't need to spot them here:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2012-08-01.jpg

And he would know when they were all wiped out.

Mikalyaran wrote:I don't recall any evidence or even suggestion of such mechanical connections in the comic. The closest thing I've seen is Wanda choosing the word attached here.


Book 1 Klogs. Airspace can only attack Tower, Outer Walls to Courtyard. Tunnels to Dungeon. Presumably, if a city Zone, Garden would not have been Garrison, and had rules similar to the Lava zone of GK, but as I pointed out above, you can see the city from the Garden, so it's not in the City.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby s-dub » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:56 pm

I did a quick check so hopefully this hasn't been brought up but did "Track her, Jack" bring Hunger Games to anyone else's mind?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lipkin » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:29 am

Kreistor, that was a long post, so I don't want to quote it. But on the subject of the High Elves, you say they didn't turn traitor. How do you know? Are you attributing the burning of the Garden to someone other than the units outside the walls?

Charlie wants the garden, Olive says no, Charlie knows Olive is a prisoner, so he arranges for the High Elves to burn the garden. If he can't have it, no one can.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Mikalyaran » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:54 am

Yeah no quote from that post either. Thanks for addressing it though Kreistor. I really enjoy these debates with everyone and this whole post has been very educational. I would have been arguing a lot of that posts with you if it weren't for Oberon sharing a post of a conversation between Rob and a fan at gen con about farm, mines, and how they work among other things. Very cool stuff.

And regarding my clarity about Charlie wanting to cap Olive...I got nothin anymore :p I posted that before reading about the farms and mines and such and that just broke all my logic. I especially like your answer to the NDA argument though. Parson has def. read Sun Tz(x?, never seen it with an x before now)u so yeah...what we've learned from book 0 so far seems like enough that it would be very good for Parson to know. I do hope its more than that though and I'll be surprise if Rob doesn't have an awesome reveal in store for us.

I think Jillian just know's he has units in the area and that's enough for her and her purposes at the moment its relevant. But, again from a purely meta standpoint, I'm not convinced he has enough troops in the area to take out FAQ. If he did he would and then his secrets would be permanently buried. A coalition against him for taking out a mostly unknown, merc side, with no strong ties to any other side seems unlikely. And with a good answer to think question seems ridiculous...how would anyone know he did it? If you've got a good answer to that I'm happy to entertain the idea.

The mechanical connection I was talking about was between remote farm hexes and cities not city zones. I still think a farm could be in the same hex as a city (especially with a link up to create it) which would be super useful for a seige. But I agree that this one isn't.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:56 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:But, again from a purely meta standpoint, I'm not convinced he has enough troops in the area to take out FAQ. If he did he would and then his secrets would be permanently buried.
That's not clear at all. The problem with trying to take out Faq is that they have so many casters. If Charlie attacks Efbaum with enough forces to take the city, overwhelming or not, he could croak Jillian and Banhammer, but most likely many of the casters would go into the Magic Kingdom. The same thing happens if Charlie waits until Faq razes Efbaum and attempts to sneak away: more casters would probably croak, but several probably went to the Magic Kingdom when they left Efbaum to wait until Faq arrives at a another capital site.

No matter how overwhelming Charlie's forces are, I don't see any way he could guarantee croaking everyone who knows about his history.

On the other hand, I still don't think they know enough to get Wanda excited about telling Parson. I don't think Wanda has read Sun Tzu.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby GWvsJohn » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:44 pm

Lilwik wrote:That's not clear at all. The problem with trying to take out Faq is that they have so many casters. If Charlie attacks Efbaum with enough forces to take the city, overwhelming or not, he could croak Jillian and Banhammer, but most likely many of the casters would go into the Magic Kingdom. The same thing happens if Charlie waits until Faq razes Efbaum and attempts to sneak away: more casters would probably croak, but several probably went to the Magic Kingdom when they left Efbaum to wait until Faq arrives at a another capital site.

No matter how overwhelming Charlie's forces are, I don't see any way he could guarantee croaking everyone who knows about his history.

On the other hand, I still don't think they know enough to get Wanda excited about telling Parson. I don't think Wanda has read Sun Tzu.


I'm fairly certain that El-Efbaum does not have a portal since it's not the capital.
I know how it works. And I'm not that confident.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lipkin » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:48 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:
Lilwik wrote:That's not clear at all. The problem with trying to take out Faq is that they have so many casters. If Charlie attacks Efbaum with enough forces to take the city, overwhelming or not, he could croak Jillian and Banhammer, but most likely many of the casters would go into the Magic Kingdom. The same thing happens if Charlie waits until Faq razes Efbaum and attempts to sneak away: more casters would probably croak, but several probably went to the Magic Kingdom when they left Efbaum to wait until Faq arrives at a another capital site.

No matter how overwhelming Charlie's forces are, I don't see any way he could guarantee croaking everyone who knows about his history.

On the other hand, I still don't think they know enough to get Wanda excited about telling Parson. I don't think Wanda has read Sun Tzu.


I'm fairly certain that El-Efbaum does not have a portal since it's not the capital.

Faq only has one city, and it is a capital site. So yes, it has a portal.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby GWvsJohn » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:00 pm

Lipkin wrote:Faq only has one city, and it is a capital site. So yes, it has a portal.


Haha. Totally forgot that Faq now has a side again. My bad.
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