Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Mikalyaran » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:48 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:But, again from a purely meta standpoint, I'm not convinced he has enough troops in the area to take out FAQ. If he did he would and then his secrets would be permanently buried.
That's not clear at all. The problem with trying to take out Faq is that they have so many casters. If Charlie attacks Efbaum with enough forces to take the city, overwhelming or not, he could croak Jillian and Banhammer, but most likely many of the casters would go into the Magic Kingdom. The same thing happens if Charlie waits until Faq razes Efbaum and attempts to sneak away: more casters would probably croak, but several probably went to the Magic Kingdom when they left Efbaum to wait until Faq arrives at a another capital site.

No matter how overwhelming Charlie's forces are, I don't see any way he could guarantee croaking everyone who knows about his history.

On the other hand, I still don't think they know enough to get Wanda excited about telling Parson. I don't think Wanda has read Sun Tzu.


Fair enough. I think what that really says though is that it is astronomically unlikely that Charlie happened to have an overwhelming enough force to drop everyone with say 10 second and guarantee every last FAQ unit dies. And he doesn't know whether or not every FAQ unit is even in the city or not. Someone not present when he called might have heard it all and be off in the MK for all he knows. In fact the only evidence we have that he knows FAQ has so many casters is because he just saw them through the thinkagram with Jack (I suppose Charlie could have set it up so he saw the full view while they just got his screen saver). All that is good by me though since my point was that I don't think he has enough forces to take out FAQ.

I do agree something more is still coming though. I think he probably has enough unit to be a threat but not enough force (or information) to seal the deal. So striking a bargain is in his best interests and he is very good at making a deal.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Kreistor » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:10 pm

Lipkin wrote:Kreistor, that was a long post, so I don't want to quote it. But on the subject of the High Elves, you say they didn't turn traitor. How do you know? Are you attributing the burning of the Garden to someone other than the units outside the walls?


Truthfully, I didn't realize it was the Garden burning. I thought she had cast something. You're correct in review. But it answers the question of why. Burning it created the environment for an escape attempt. Units know basic orders without communication, so she can get nearby units to gather and burn it without direct command, if her own magic couldn't achieve it. Or a bright local Warlord might recognize the possibility, and act on initiative. Even if Olive doesn't want it burned, a Warlord could consider it a Duty to provide every opportunity for her escape. Acting in the Overlord's best interest overcomes Orders.

Or her High Elves got sick of her competing in their drug business and moved to re-establish their territory.

Anyway, there are a bunch of good possibilities, and many we may not know about.

Charlie wants the garden, Olive says no, Charlie knows Olive is a prisoner, so he arranges for the High Elves to burn the garden. If he can't have it, no one can.


That is nothing like Charlie. More likely Olive burned it to keep it out of his hands: she's the vengeful type, where Charlie doesn't burn his bridges, or cut himself off from a good thing when there's still hope to retrieve it. She was part of its creation, so may be able to do something like take back the Life component and it bursts into flames. Sort of like the Scarecrow losing its Life and returning to a normal golem. That's if she didn't just mentally issue orders to her Natural Allies to burn it for her.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby wih » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:45 pm

I don't think Charlie would be able to kill all of the FAQ casters who knew his secrets before at least 1 got through the Portal, then his secrets are compromised. There's a good reason to cut a deal.

Even if the things outside the gates are or were Natural Allies of Haffaton, that might mean that this is where Charlie put his hand at turning Natural Allies, which would make part of the information Jack can give Parson link to Saline IV's death. I think that what Jack has to say would be bigger than that tho.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lipkin » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:53 pm

Kreistor wrote:
That is nothing like Charlie. More likely Olive burned it to keep it out of his hands: she's the vengeful type, where Charlie doesn't burn his bridges, or cut himself off from a good thing when there's still hope to retrieve it. She was part of its creation, so may be able to do something like take back the Life component and it bursts into flames. Sort of like the Scarecrow losing its Life and returning to a normal golem. That's if she didn't just mentally issue orders to her Natural Allies to burn it for her.

Olive didn't need to escape. The trial was already ending, or at least being postponed. She wouldn't burn her most prized possession if she thought she had a chance to keep it, and from the looks of things, she was doing a good job of convincing Banhammer to spare her.

Whereas Charlie has every reason to burn the garden. When it was under Olive's control, at least he knew she would guard it as jealously as he would. She wouldn't willingly share it's secrets. Charlie wouldn't want it falling into the hands of others, especially not the hands of one of his competitors. Remember, Faq are mercenaries just like Charlie. If they suddenly have the garden, that's an asset that Charlie can't match, and he loses business. He made one last shot to take the garden by bartering with Olive, and when she turned him down, he considered it lost. He can't conquer Efbaum and remain neutral, so his options are limited. By using the elves to burn the garden, he weakens Faq and Haffaton both, and loses literally nothing himself.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Kreistor » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:11 am

wih wrote:that might mean that this is where Charlie put his hand at turning Natural Allies,


Turning requires switching from one Side to another. Natural Allies cannot join a Side at all, and thus can never Turn. You're confusing Breaking Alliance with turning. However, you imply he did it more than once, and that cannot be proven.

Lipkin wrote:Olive didn't need to escape. The trial was already ending, or at least being postponed.


Then she wouldn't have even tried. Your proposal for motive does not match her choice of actions, only a theoretical case where she didn't make the attempt.

But just as a back-up, we do not know how long it took for the smoke to get to the city. The city is described as being on the Horizon from the Garden, so if any physics similar to our own are involved, it had to have been set alight long before the smoke was detected, possibly when Judy left. That is the moment Jillian became the obvious and immediate means of Olive's death, and panic takes over. The trial is irrelevant, in the face of Predictamancy that forewarns your death to someone in your immediate presence. It's not as much about escape as getting away from your future murderer.

Lipkin wrote:Whereas Charlie has every reason to burn the garden. [snip] Charlie wouldn't want it falling into the hands of others,


There is no one except him that could take it. It was already in the hands of Olive, so no reason he'd change that situation. The other competitor for the Garden is FAQ. Jillian is afraid he has the power to take them, even while inside the walls of the City with its defenses. Outside in the Garden, FAQ lacks defensive protections and has to face his Archons in the open, where FAQ gets slaughtered. Not only are they almost down to only Casters, but FAQ is a peaceful Side led by someone that refuses to consider the power of the flowers malevolent due to excessive benefit of the doubt towards an unknown Florist and a lack of trust in his own daughter. Banhammer would happily trade a field of nonthreatening Flowers for Peaceful passage and a surety that Charlescomm will never seek to find FAQ or its sister cities, so Charlie doesn't even need a fight to get it. Haffaton is enormous, so there is no one else that could take it. To get the Garden, Charlie can offer competition guarantees in order to increase FAQ weath, offer usage fees that pay FAQ every Turn, or any number of useful proposals. FAQ is wrecked, and Charlie nearly equal in power in just this region. Charlie has fast moving reinforcements scattered worldwide, so could swarm the City in a few Turns. Charlie is in no way out of options when it comes to the Garden. Oh, and BTW, if you think Charlie might not know all that, consider Judy's comments. "Charlie knows everything."

And, I reiterate. Charlie does not destroy what he can still obtain. He may want the Bracer, but he's not killing Parson to keep it out of others' hands. He tries to kill Parson because he knows Parson is a significant threat. At no time is Charlie demonstrated to destroy anything "to keep it out of others' hands". He had the opportunity to take GK and kill Parson for the Bracer and declined, simply because he wanted to see what Parson did even while he risked the Bracer going to someone else, since he had no Alliance contract to ensure he received it as loot. Charlie does not value things anywhere nearly as highly as you all seem to think he does. Charlie is not a cookie cutter villain. He is creative and highly intelligent, with complex motives and extensive long term planning capacity, who does not waste even potential assets, and ensures he gains in all possible outcomes. You're talking like he was Cobra Commander or Megatron. You need to start thinking he's more like David Xanatos. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Xanatos
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lipkin » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:47 am

Just because Olive wasn't in immediate danger, doesn't mean she wouldn't take the opportunity to attempt an escape, especially if she thinks her natural allies are waiting in the wings. And as you say, we don't know how long it took the smoke to travel.


And the garden had already been taken. Faq took the garden when they took the city. Certainly Charlie could take the city, but he wouldn't. Not unless he could croak every living unit from city or otherwise silence the witnesses. The minute he stops being a neutral party and turns to conquest, his business empire begins to crumble. If he chooses to attack, he can't negotiate their silence and secure his secrets. And Charlie's only exposure to Banhammer is the thinkogram he just had. All your other options regarding the garden cost Charlie much by way of reputation or secrets.

As for Charlie and Parson, Parson made a valid point. Charlie stood to take a lot of damage if he had attacked when he was threatening. Parson also stated he had a 58% chance of not losing the city without Charlie's interference, which Charlie thought was impossible. Knowing that number to be true, he reconsidered. It wasn't that he wanted to see what Parson would do, it's that he risked nothing by waiting, and it was clear Parson had something up his sleeve that Charlie wanted no part of. With GK and JS ready to beat the crap out of each other, Charlie was perfectly happy to stand by and wait to see who won. If GK, it's a simple matter of cleaning up the survivors. If Jetstone he can make a deal for the bracer, or a number of other things to meet his goals.

I'm not saying Charlie would destroy ANYTHING to keep it out of other's hands. I'm saying he'd destroy something he helped create, and knew the exact scope of. He'd destroy something that it would cost him greatly to retake, and cost him very little to destroy. Charlie tried to negotiate with Olive in order to gain control of the garden, because then it would be his through legitimate means. Once she refuses him, his options ARE limited. He can take the city, but then he is the aggressor, and if one of the casters escapes his reputation is damaged. Too risky. He can try to make a deal with Faq for the garden, but he has very little intel on Banhammer, so who knows how the negotiation would go, and if it goes south, he can't destroy the garden without breaking neutrality or revealing his ability to screw with natural allies. And screwing over someone you were in negotiations with tends to make those people unwilling to sign NDA's. Also risky. The only way to preserve both his reputation and his secrets is to destroy the garden immediately, which he can do with very little risk and very little cost.

So yeah, he'd destroy the garden in a second. No reward is worth risking everything he has built.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby wih » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:46 am

Yeah, I used the wrong terminology by reflex, whoops. Point still remains, this could be his first time at doing what Charlie does to Natural Allies, by whatever means he does it. And yes, it cannot be proven currently, but we know that he's arranged it once (FAQ Giants) and that there's a huge chance he was behind the gobwins taking out Saline IV. That's close enough to two for my purposes.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby drachefly » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:09 am

Kreistor wrote:But just as a back-up, we do not know how long it took for the smoke to get to the city. The city is described as being on the Horizon from the Garden


... so there is at least one point in the garden that far away. The garden could extend right up to the walls
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:10 am

Part of the problem might be we don't know how big a hex is?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Kreistor » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:26 pm

Yes, Drach it could, but we don't know it does. I was not eliminating any possibilities, only pointing out that there is a wider variety of proposals available to us. that Garden might connect to Outer Walls does not mean we are restricted to only solutions that demand Garden connect to Outer Walls. We have a spectrum of solutions due to timing issues.

The argument for Olive being responsible for the destruction is in her motive, for which I provided the inherent fear of Jillian that seemed to be getting overlooked. Olive has a real and fundamental Fight or Flight situation, due to the Predictamancy that places her killer within arm's reach, regardless of trial outcome. This provides motivation throughout the entire day, regardless of proximity to the Garden. The one thing the trial would not do is croak Jillian and solve her problem for her.

It is Means and Opportunity that questions my proposal. I don't know that Olive can issue orders while captured or fleeing, since Jillian couldn't; however, we still have Olive's involvement in the Garden's creation, as well as Archon Thinkagram we cannot eliminate..
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:30 pm

This looks like it might be a hex boundary? Where did we learn that a city only takes up one hex again? If it only takes up one, that means hexes are pretty huge.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:03 am

Shai_hulud wrote:This looks like it might be a hex boundary?
It might be a hex boundary, but hex boundaries are supposed to be invisible according to Summer Update 27. I don't expect to be able to see one in any panel.

Shai_hulud wrote:Where did we learn that a city only takes up one hex again? If it only takes up one, that means hexes are pretty huge.
I suspect we never have learned that explicitly, but we know that there are no hexes within a city because cities are divided into zones and you only require move to pass from one zone to another. So even if a zone were to occupy the same area as several hexes, you still wouldn't require move to go from one side of the zone to the other. I could believe that the footprint of a city site is the size of several hexes, especially for capitals, if ordinary hexes aren't big enough to contain whole cities.

On the other hand, I expect that hexes are huge. Armies need to be able to clash within a hex. Mounted units need space to ride around. When two forces come together within the same hex, things shift from turn-based to real-time, and there needs to be room within the hex to fight the battle in real time. The side that has no move is trapped within the hex, so a small hex would mean no mobility for that side, and that would give the attackers a huge advantage. Instead, I suspect that each hex allows for plenty of room to maneuver, room enough for whole armies to have a battle and even attempt to flank each other without needing to leave the hex.

I also expect that no Erfworld city is even close to as big as the big Stupidworld cities.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:24 am

Lilwik wrote:I don't expect to be able to see one in any panel.

I just meant it was, you know, a giant line where one terrain type becomes another. That's all.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby wih » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:34 am

We know that Parson can see hex boundaries with his 3D specs. Was in one of the summer updates. The image in question of Parson hitting it showed it like plate glass.

The image Shai_hulud linked shows an army amassing on what we assume is the boundary, not the boundary itself (which is invisible in the image). Saying that shows a boundary is like saying that seeing a flag in the breeze is seeing the wind - it's a close enough abstraction, even if it's not completely accurate.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:39 am

Yeah. What he said. -_-
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:53 am

wih wrote:The image Shai_hulud linked shows an army amassing on what we assume is the boundary, not the boundary itself (which is invisible in the image).
Actually there is a line in the image which seems to divide one type of terrain from another, which might be a hex boundary that happens to be visible in this case because of the sharp difference in terrain types. Looking at that army, it seems to me that it is marching in a column, not amassing along a boundary, so that line of soldiers is not the hex boundary.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby wih » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:20 am

The angle the column has bent appears to be the angle of a hexagon. To my perspective that is as much indicative as the boundary of a hex as a dramatic change of scenery along a line - they're both indirect measures. One is measuring based on an abstraction of the intention or capabilities of units (relating to walking along the hex boundary because you're out of move - notice the text in the panel talks about how they have to limit the move of the column due to low move of some units, this could be at a point when they're stopping for the turn), the other is an assumption that the reason for the dramatic scenery shift is a hex change (as opposed to a cultivated change or some other phenomenon).
Of course I could be overthinking this, and they both could be approximately true. The army could be marching very close to the boundary, which is actually found at the point of scenery shift.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:43 am

wih wrote:The angle the column has bent appears to be the angle of a hexagon.
I see your point! But I think you've gotten it slightly wrong. Maybe that bend in the column is caused by a hex boundary, but not because they are marching along the boundary; I can't imagine any reason for that. When they run out of move they would just stop, not bunch up along the boundary. Instead, I think the point at which the column bends could be where the column crosses the hex boundary.

Somewhere in Book 0 Jillian deals with traveling between hexes and it is revealed how the hexes are aligned. They either have their boundaries north, south, northeast, northwest, southeast, southwest, or else they are the other way. I wish I could find that episode, but suppose that the boundaries of the hex are as I listed. If you wanted to travel west they would need to alternate between northwest and southwest, which means turning every time they pass into a new hex.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Mogster2 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:56 pm

0beron wrote:
Mogster2 wrote:
0beron wrote:I think we actually do have suitable precedent on this. When the Gobwins rose up and killed Saline, GK lost the capital, so the side ended. But the Gobwins didn't disband.
GK didn't lose the capital because Stanley had been named Saline's heir.
Yes, they did. The rebellious Gobwins took the city. When the Capital of a side is lost but the Ruler lives, the units go Barbarian, so Stanley was still able to reclaim the city easily and thus restart the side, but the Side DID end in the interim.

Hmm. That's not what I'm seeing here in panels 5-6.
Parson: When the city fell. Shouldn't you have disbanded?"
Sizemore: Normally, yes. But the king was very fond of Stanley, so he did something that rarely happens. He promoted Stanley to Heir Designate, at great expense. That way, when the capital fell it wasn't the end of our side."

GK (the side) probably did go Barbarian after GK (the city) fell, but the side itself did not end.
(Has this been picked over before? I'm not exactly a regular visitor to the forums.)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Venthus » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:31 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Where did we learn that a city only takes up one hex again? If it only takes up one, that means hexes are pretty huge.


I'm inclined to believe that there'd be a bit of handwaving with the result of 'the hex is exactly as large as it needs to be'.
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