Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby ftl » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:28 pm

Lilwik wrote:I don't remember that. It was an excellent chance to change Faq's name, and Jillian may have been wandering on her own for so long that she no longer considered her side to have a name, but as for whether the new side was still technically the same side as the original Faq, that was never made clear.



http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/ ... mission_37

When they'd arrived, Jillian had asked Vinny what he thought about maybe naming the new capital and side "Ansom." After thinking it over, he told her he thought the Prince would have been flattered, but that he would've had a big problem with her being the "Queen of Ansom." Lacking any other ideas, she claimed the ruins and called the city Faq again.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby ftl » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:33 pm

Maybe this all has to do with losing ALL your cities?

Maybe:

1) If your capital gets captured, bad stuff happens [but the side doesn't end]
2) If your Ruler gets croaked and has no heir, the side ends, all units disband or go barbarian or freeze or whatever
3) If your Ruler gets croaked and has an heir, the heir keeps ruling the side, whatever cities are left of it.
4) If your Ruler gets croaked AND has an heir AND has lost ALL their cities, the side ends and the heir goes barbarian.

Is that possible given what we've seen?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:52 pm

ftl wrote:4) If your Ruler gets croaked AND has an heir AND has lost ALL their cities, the side ends and the heir goes barbarian.
Olive told Jillian that Haffaton captured all of Faq's cities, and Jillian said, "I’m not a Ruler. My father escaped, didn’t he? He finally got off his huge keister and moved!" (Book 0, Episode 52). How could being a ruler (or not) tell Jillian anything about whether Banhammer was alive after they'd lost all their cities under the rules you suggest?

Given that, it seems that the rule should be:
4) If your Ruler gets croaked AND has an heir AND has lost ALL their cities, then the heir becomes ruler of the side and goes barbarian.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby ftl » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:52 pm

Oh, good point, yeah.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby mortissimus » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:17 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:There are only (as far as we know) two types of barbarians. Those that popped as barbarians and former heirs/rulers of destroyed sides. Based on the fact that Ansom just assumed Jillian was the former I don't see any differences in how they interact mechanically with the world.


I'd say three. There are ferals, former sides, and then there are those frozen cities from sides that has lost their rulers. I would expect a frozen city to act differently then a non-capital city conquered by ferals or a former side. I do however agree that ferals and former sides should have the same mechanics.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby drachefly » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:59 pm

Frozen cities aren't barbarian, they're neutral. A different word was used.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:18 pm

mortissimus wrote:I do however agree that ferals and former sides should have the same mechanics.
Except that former sides have rulers which makes them still sides in some sense, and ferals are considered to have "none" as their side of origin which suggests that they have no rulers. The name "feral" also suggests that they have no rulers, so I'm going to guess that it's true.

I agree that frozen cities aren't barbarians. Barbarian cities surely exist and they're another thing, something that happens when a city loses its capital. They're probably not frozen, so I wonder why sides need capitals at all. It seems that the only point of attacking Spacerock was the hope of croaking Slately and stopping the heir from popping; the city itself was useless except for the shmuckers they'd get from razing it since capturing would never have ended Jetstone, and not just because Jetstone had another capital site. I expect that a capital city has more value than we know about.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby mortissimus » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:47 pm

drachefly wrote:Frozen cities aren't barbarian, they're neutral. A different word was used.


Ah, right you are. And good, only two types then.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby mortissimus » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:55 pm

Lilwik wrote:I agree that frozen cities aren't barbarians. Barbarian cities surely exist and they're another thing, something that happens when a city loses its capital. They're probably not frozen, so I wonder why sides need capitals at all. It seems that the only point of attacking Spacerock was the hope of croaking Slately and stopping the heir from popping; the city itself was useless except for the shmuckers they'd get from razing it since capturing would never have ended Jetstone, and not just because Jetstone had another capital site. I expect that a capital city has more value than we know about.


Yes, the great question is what happens if a side has ruler and cities but no capital. Has it then a treasury? Can it pop units?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:08 pm

mortissimus wrote:Yes, the great question is what happens if a side has ruler and cities but no capital. Has it then a treasury? Can it pop units?
Barbarians should be able to pop units. Even natural allies can pop units, and that's without any cities at all. I suspect that Jillian popped some of her own gwiffons while she was a barbarian.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:01 pm

Lilwik wrote:
mortissimus wrote:Yes, the great question is what happens if a side has ruler and cities but no capital. Has it then a treasury? Can it pop units?
Barbarians should be able to pop units. Even natural allies can pop units, and that's without any cities at all. I suspect that Jillian popped some of her own gwiffons while she was a barbarian.

Capitals are necessary for a Treasury, so I would actually expect Barbarian cities to be very rare. Assuming they could collect income from the city at all without a Treasury, said Barbarians would have to manage it with only their Purses, a much more limited "bank". As for popping units, I would imagine Barbarian cities could (although they might not have any control over the unit types it can pop since it has no Capital to get a "template" from)...but Barbarians in the wild definitely can NOT. Natural allies are specified as an exception not a rule, their ability to pop more is Natural Moneymancy, so it's definitely not a common mechanic. All of Jillian's units were original.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:25 pm

0beron wrote:Barbarians in the wild definitely can NOT. Natural allies are specified as an exception not a rule, their ability to pop more is Natural Moneymancy, so it's definitely not a common mechanic. All of Jillian's units were original.
Where do we know this from?

Most popping is Natural Moneymancy, so Natural Moneymancy is certainly a common mechanic. See Summer Update 1 where Natural Moneymancy is used to construct a city. Upkeep shmuckers are spent to pop rations, so that's also Natural Moneymancy. Popping units could easily be Natural Moneymancy too, but I'm not sure if that actually costs shmuckers. The only popping that I'm sure is not Natural Moneymancy is the popping that's done by an actual Moneymancer.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:29 pm

Because it's what makes Natural Allies special. If they weren't the only ones who could do it, there wouldn't be much point to them. Furthermore, GK would have popped a crap-ton of dwagons before tBfGK if they were able to, considering how filthy rich they were. Jillian also laments the units she lost as a Barbarian because they were irreplaceable.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby SNfinity » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Ansom assumed that Jillian was a "naturally occurring" barbarian, so either barbarians can pop units or barbarian warlords come with armies.

EDIT: Jillian was a natural ally as of TBfGK, apparently. http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F086.jpg
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:39 pm

SNfinity wrote:Jillian was a natural ally as of TBfGK, apparently. Book 1, Page 86
Very well spotted! I knew that barbarians were natural allies, but I couldn't figure out where I knew it from so I was full of doubts. Now that we have that we have no reason to expect that the rules for barbarians are any different than the rules for other natural allies. Just like other natural allies, barbarians have leaders, and when you give them shmuckers they can use them to pop more units.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:44 pm

Yeah no I'm gonna call BS and stop that stupid train before it gets rolling...STUPID MEAL. It's right in the name, they things are chronically incomplete/inaccurate. Barbarians are not the same as Natural Allies at least not from a mechanic standpoint. They both take turns at Dawn...and there the similarities end.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby wih » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:55 pm

Interesting. This might be part of the greater question to do with if Barbarians have sides or not. If they have no side, there can be no side-to-side alliance, so they would have to fall under Natural Allies.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:59 pm

Why? Why can't they just be Barbarians, like every other reference that is made to them? Who says Erfworld only has 2 types of "parties"? Because as far as I can remember, this Stupid Meal is the only thing that ever lumps them in with another category.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Jabberwocky » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:17 pm

Other than the Stupidmeal, which may just be simplifying(or a relic of Retconjuration, theres little to indicate that Barbarians count as natural allies in the same way as elves or ect. In fact, the later portrayals of barbarians and natural allies are quite different, even down to how they handle schmuckers.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:20 pm

Oooooh excellent point, Barbarians have Purses, NA's can't. I think that's a huge strike against them being the same.
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