Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:45 pm

From a Move/Turn perspective, that could easily be Charlie's Archons, assuming they were already in the hex to 1) keep an eye on Olive or 2) because Charlie has been watching the developments with Jillian after she was first spotted in that storm. So really it becomes a question of whether that's the case.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby crex90 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:49 pm

Kaigen wrote:Or perhaps it's: "The opportunity to get paid by the enemy for extracting your own troops doesn't just knock on your door every day."


Now THAT sounds more like a Tagon-ism.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby drachefly » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:50 pm

Well, that's different. Less devastating than hitting the thing with a wand of striking though. That would have screwed everyone up.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby MadZuri » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:03 pm

0beron wrote:From a Move/Turn perspective, that could easily be Charlie's Archons, assuming they were already in the hex to 1) keep an eye on Olive or 2) because Charlie has been watching the developments with Jillian after she was first spotted in that storm. So really it becomes a question of whether that's the case.


I had to go back and check, but Haffaton's turn started at dawn. Does Charlie get his turn before Haffaton? If so, none on his side were in the battlespace. I would consider within the city hex a part of the battlespace.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:06 pm

MadZuri wrote:I had to go back and check, but Haffaton's turn started at dawn. Does Charlie get his turn before Haffaton? If so, none on his side were in the battlespace. I would consider within the city hex a part of the battlespace.
Charlie seems to have the earliest turn order in general, but I'm not sure we've had it compared directly to Haffaton. However, recall that Battlespace is Natural Predictamancy, so even if his turn is earlier, it wouldn't be noticed if Haffaton and Charlescomm were never going to actually interact. Also, due to relative time and such, Charlie's turn may have indeed come first, but if the Archons were already hiding in place, the turn could have been over in the blink of an eye.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby MadZuri » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:15 pm

0beron wrote:Charlie seems to have the earliest turn order in general, but I'm not sure we've had it compared directly to Haffaton. However, recall that Battlespace is Natural Predictamancy, so even if his turn is earlier, it wouldn't be noticed if Haffaton and Charlescomm were never going to actually interact. Also, due to relative time and such, Charlie's turn may have indeed come first, but if the Archons were already hiding in place, the turn could have been over in the blink of an eye.


That Natural Predictamancy still assigns turn order even if the unit don't engage in battle. I'll grant that Charlie may have already ended turn due to relative time, but that seems like grasping at straws. I think it is much more likely that the High Elves were ordered to attack. We already know that Charlie has shenanigans with natural allies, and may already be in contact or control of them.

edit: see IPTSF Text 27 for an example of turn order without combat
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Xarx » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:30 pm

MadZuri wrote:
0beron wrote:Charlie seems to have the earliest turn order in general, but I'm not sure we've had it compared directly to Haffaton. However, recall that Battlespace is Natural Predictamancy, so even if his turn is earlier, it wouldn't be noticed if Haffaton and Charlescomm were never going to actually interact. Also, due to relative time and such, Charlie's turn may have indeed come first, but if the Archons were already hiding in place, the turn could have been over in the blink of an eye.


That Natural Predictamancy still assigns turn order even if the unit don't engage in battle. I'll grant that Charlie may have already ended turn due to relative time, but that seems like grasping at straws. I think it is much more likely that the High Elves were ordered to attack. We already know that Charlie has shenanigans with natural allies, and may already be in contact or control of them.

edit: see IPTSF Text 27 for an example of turn order without combat


If they were ordered to attack, why didn't they?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:37 pm

Sixty wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:Wait, I though Jack was out of juice?


He was out of juice in Book 2 before he died.

No, he couldn't show Jillian Olive being pulled up in the gwiffon, because he didn't have the juice anymore.
Here:
“Jack?”

“Mm?”

“That thing where you can share what you’re seeing with me...”

“I’m sorry, my Chief Warlord, I can’t now. I haven’t the juice left.”


Also, I just googled the signamancy of lilies, and it seems white lilies symbolize innocence. Take from that what you will.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby ftl » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:39 pm

I think a default speculation for "Natural Allies Did Something Weird" is "Charlie did it".

Here, he would have the motive, and the thinkagram call would have tipped him off that he had the opportunity to mess things up for Olive.

[edit] That was in response to Xarx [/edit]
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby MadZuri » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:41 pm

Xarx wrote:If they were ordered to attack, why didn't they?

They aren't siege units? Or that thing I said earlier about Charlie.

[edit] ninja'd! Also, they did attack. They set the garden on fire.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Xarx » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:59 pm

MadZuri wrote:
Xarx wrote:If they were ordered to attack, why didn't they?

They aren't siege units? Or that thing I said earlier about Charlie.

[edit] ninja'd! Also, they did attack. They set the garden on fire.


Setting the garden on fire was a diversion to give Olive a chance to escape. But when she stood at the portcullis and ordered them to attack, she expected them to obey. They didn't. That tells me that they weren't who she thought they were.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Mikalyaran » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:22 pm

Xarx wrote:
MadZuri wrote:
Xarx wrote:If they were ordered to attack, why didn't they?

They aren't siege units? Or that thing I said earlier about Charlie.

[edit] ninja'd! Also, they did attack. They set the garden on fire.


Setting the garden on fire was a diversion to give Olive a chance to escape. But when she stood at the portcullis and ordered them to attack, she expected them to obey. They didn't. That tells me that they weren't who she thought they were.


Or the natural allies betrayed her. Low loyalty could do it easily. I wouldn't be surprised to find that Olive had frayed that thread over the turns. Whoever they are I'm glad Olive is dead and we can quit thinking she might be Janis.

So...Haffaton is a big side and all these cities are empty now. As the turns pass new sides will rise and take them and fill it back up. I think one day when we are far enough along in the story for Rob to share a map with us I bet we'd find that most of the sides we know exist in Haffaton space or very near it. I'm looking forward to seeing those maps some day.

0beron wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:It could be possible that, unlike regular units, natural allies do not automatically disband when a side falls.
I think we actually do have suitable precedent on this. When the Gobwins rose up and killed Saline, GK lost the capital, so the side ended. But the Gobwins didn't disband.


I don't think natural allies can capture cities. If so why wouldn't we have natural allies turning into sides in their own right? But then I haven't looked at that stuff in a while so I don't recall if, for instance, Stanley had mentioned have to kill a bunch of Gobwins when he got back from FAQ. But the whole side ending seems really weird and troublesome. Something like that would cripple a side. Stanley would have had to go and recapture a bunch of cities and rebuild his troops since they would have all disbanded. Why wouldn't he have kept the FAQ cities and started rebuilding from there? Or am I missing something?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby hehehe426 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:04 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:
Sixty wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:Wait, I though Jack was out of juice?


He was out of juice in Book 2 before he died.

No, he couldn't show Jillian Olive being pulled up in the gwiffon, because he didn't have the juice anymore.
Here:
“Jack?”

“Mm?”

“That thing where you can share what you’re seeing with me...”

“I’m sorry, my Chief Warlord, I can’t now. I haven’t the juice left.”


Also, I just googled the signamancy of lilies, and it seems white lilies symbolize innocence. Take from that what you will.

Actually, lilies are also the flower of death. I think it's rather appropriate.

And I took Jack's statement that he couldn't show Jillian what was going on anymore as that he was simply running on very little juice. Maybe it cost less to alter Rusty's dreams than to show Jillian what he saw in reality, which I think would make a degree of sense. After all, you're already "fooling" yourself in flower dreams.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby twhitt » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:14 pm

It seems to me they're archons; probably they were in the garden hex already, before the start of the turn. They burned the garden for reasons unknown; perhaps to destroy it. Olive found them when she reached the main gate of the city (on the outer walls!) and expected that they were there to join her. She was delusional. She thought Charlie had come to save her, that he had sent archons in spite of the lack of some formal deal, but she had misjudged. The archons weren't there to save Olive, and they didn't form an alliance with her or obey her orders. Perhaps, they were waiting for Olive to enter the Garden hex to engage. Either way, they allowed Jillian to kill Olive, then sang "the wicked witch is dead."

It's hard to make real sense of the updates that have such unreliable reporting, but I can't really see any coherent story that differs markedly from this one.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby vintermann » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:32 pm

OK, all you foolamancers saying they're archons. You will eat crow.

Munchie-kins, mark my word. High elves, very high.

Also: If setting fire to the garden was a diverson to help Olive, it wasn't Olive who was doing it. Just minutes ago she was negotiating with Charlie for her life, and she still refused to give up the garden.

Charlie, who is known to have been addicted to the buds himself at one point, hates the garden, and insisted on its destruction. He's taken matters into his own hands - possibly by dealing with the high elves. Yes, there's precedent that he can get others' natural allies to do his bidding, but then again Charlie is very good at getting anyone to do his bidding.

I doubt Olive would waste the buds on the high elves, so it probably was real easy for Charlie to tempt the drug-crazy elves to smoke the whole thing. From Charlie's perspective: If Olive got away, he'd have neutralized the garden and Olive would owe him one. When she didn't, well, Wanda and Jillian are (ultimately) going to be really grateful that he destroyed the garden, he can get away with pretending helping Olive wasn't intentional.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Xarx » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:09 pm

vintermann wrote:OK, all you foolamancers saying they're archons. You will eat crow.


No, I will eat your quatloos. :lol:

vintermann wrote:Also: If setting fire to the garden was a diverson to help Olive, it wasn't Olive who was doing it. Just minutes ago she was negotiating with Charlie for her life, and she still refused to give up the garden..


Not a diversion to help Olive, a diversion to get her out of the city and into Charlie's custody. To trick her.

Charlie knows that Olive is desperate to escape and will take advantage of the slightest opportunity. He provides that opportunity by ordering his Archons — the few that he has in the hex — to fire the heroine field. Meanwhile, he has his archons cast a veil on themselves in the guise of a Haffaton army. The purpose of that is to make Olive think that her rescue is at hand, if only she can make it out of the city. If she does, she's in for a nasty surprise when the archons unveil and capture her for Charlescomm. I'm sure Charlie has lots of things he'd like to discuss with Olive at his leisure. And it almost worked.

That's why the troops don't obey Olive: they're not real.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Jabberwocky » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:23 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:
Also, I just googled the signamancy of lilies, and it seems white lilies symbolize innocence. Take from that what you will.


I (and it seems most American culture) associates white lilies with funerals.

"The flower most commonly associated with funeral services in the popular mind is the lily. Lilies are often interpreted as a symbol of the innocence that has been restored to the soul of the departed."

So I'm going with 'Lily = Ding Dong Bitch be croaked"
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Kreistor » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:35 pm

The trooops at the door could be:

1) Natural Allies.

2) Uncroaked. What happens to uncroaked when their creator changes Sides? Or when their Side disappears, but their creator on another Side is still alive? There is a small chance of an exception for Caster created units, where they revert to Caster control upon Side dissolution. In which case, they were Olive's right up until they died, but then they became Wanda's again. Or they went with Wanda, and Olive didn't realize she was looking at enemy troops beyond the gate, though I seriously doubt that possibility, since as Ruler, they should be in her head as not on Side. Unless her spells have affected her vision, too.

3) Archons is incredibly unlikely. Archons Fly and could come in via Airspace and undefended Tower. Only a ground force with no siege needs the gate opened.

BTW, on the subject of Turn: if Charlie Turn is after Haffaton, maybe his Turn would start upon Alliance agreement, since so far we have no Rule one way or another. We know Charlie was not in Battlespace, or he goes after Haffaton, because Haffaton began at dawn. There may be a special case of Turn order, where the Natural Predictamancy would have both Haffaton and Charlescomm begin at Dawn, because the Alliance is predicted, but I don't think so,. That should have happened to Charlescomm on the last day of the BfGK, because that Alliance began mid-Turn, but Charlescomm had Turn already, suggesting that Turn order is calculated by the Alliances in place at Dawn, with no changes due to mid-day agreements.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Althernai » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:36 pm

I am confused. If Olive is really dead (is she? it looks that way, but it's not obvious), there is no reason for any further discussion of Charlie's secrets. Given this, what does Jack know about Charlie that would warrant Wanda being so worried about him being able to tell Parson? The only reliable fact they got was that he was a Carnymancer. Everything else was either second-hand (from Wanda via the Haffaton court) or from Olive who is quite deceptive despite her tendency to avoid outright lies. Regardless of which of them spoke the truth, there's nothing of obvious value there.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Jabberwocky » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:44 pm

Kreistor wrote:BTW, on the subject of Turn: if Charlie Turn is after Haffaton, maybe his Turn would start upon Alliance agreement, since so far we have no Rule one way or another. We know Charlie was not in Battlespace, or he goes after Haffaton, because Haffaton began at dawn. There may be a special case of Turn order, where the Natural Predictamancy would have both Haffaton and Charlescomm begin at Dawn, because the Alliance is predicted, but I don't think so,. That should have happened to Charlescomm on the last day of the BfGK, because that Alliance began mid-Turn, but Charlescomm had Turn already, suggesting that Turn order is calculated by the Alliances in place at Dawn, with no changes due to mid-day agreements.


Well, we've already seen that breaking and then renewing a contract can shuffle up the turn order, back during the siege of Godwin Knob. If Charlie did the side swap shuffle and 'allied' with Olive during the court debacle, he very well might be able to pull off joining Haffaton's turn.

And I suppose they could be Archons with orders to capture Olive. Of course Olive, being the poor narcissistic bulbasaur she is, probably thought they were there to save her tofubacon. But I really think we'll have to wait to find out who or what they are. They might just be hallucinations.
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