Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby hjed » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:48 am

Xarx wrote:
hjed wrote:If Charlie burnt the garden he would have to have units in the city, and FAQ wouldn't have been able to take it.


The garden is outside the city proper, as we can see in episode 50:
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/IPTSF_Text_50

So the archons don't need to be in the city; they just need to be in the neighboring hex, which happens to be the garden. Far from impossible.

Edit: fixed link


Wouldn't that mean they were attacking off turn? Surely if Charlie initiated the fire the smoke would not be able to cross the hex boundary. I'm pretty sure there was something in book 2 about the affects of a fire not crossing hexes.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Jabberwocky » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:58 am

hjed wrote:Wouldn't that mean they were attacking off turn? Surely if Charlie initiated the fire the smoke would not be able to cross the hex boundary. I'm pretty sure there was something in book 2 about the effects of a fire not crossing hexes.


Fire is different from smoke. And would it even count as an attack, or just a natural 'event' you get to participate in? After all, Olive's poison kisses slipped passed the Chillax(probably the second strongest magical item(non Tool) we've yet seen). There appears to be a lot of ways you can kill someone without ever actually entering battle.

For a double scoop of irony, maybe one of the Garden's functions was to be a last ditch Hippiemancy trap. The city is falling, torch the garden and let the attackers die from an overdose of heroin bud. Or let stupid invaders torch it themselves, to get rid of the flowers that're turning their infantry into drooling twits. It would be in keeping with Olive's idiom of killing without fighting.

I rather like that. Its always funny when a scorpion stings itself.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Xarx » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:02 am

hjed wrote:
Wouldn't that mean they were attacking off turn? Surely if Charlie initiated the fire the smoke would not be able to cross the hex boundary. I'm pretty sure there was something in book 2 about the affects of a fire not crossing hexes.


Now that's a very good question. But the fire doesn't need to cross the hex boundary — just the smoke. We don't have an explicit answer for this yet, but it seems reasonable to me that as light, water and (presumably) air can cross hex boundaries, particulate matter in the air (ie smoke) could drift across as well.

Can't say for sure, of course, but that's my take on it. I guess we'll find out.

Oooh, sniped!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:05 am

hjed wrote:Wouldn't that mean they were attacking off turn? Surely if Charlie initiated the fire the smoke would not be able to cross the hex boundary.
The uncroaked volcano caused destruction across multiple hexes even though it wasn't Gobwin Knob's turn. See Book 1, Page 183.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Jabberwocky » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:16 am

YesNinja wrote:EDIT: If so, Parson needs to get rid of every natural ally he has right the heck NAOW! O.o


Or at the least croak them for exp and then decrypt them.

I wonder if Charlie, should the 'natural allies' thing be accurate, can do it to decrypted natural allies?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby YesNinja » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:23 am

Jabberwocky wrote:
YesNinja wrote:EDIT: If so, Parson needs to get rid of every natural ally he has right the heck NAOW! O.o


Or at the least croak them for exp and then decrypt them.

I wonder if Charlie, should the 'natural allies' thing be accurate, can do it to decrypted natural allies?



Oooh, I dunno! I think at that point we'd have Tool vs Tool, which really would be something to behold, ya know?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:00 am

Jabberwocky wrote:I wonder if Charlie, should the 'natural allies' thing be accurate, can do it to decrypted natural allies?
I seriously doubt it! Natural allies are normally a closely allied but distinct side. Decrypted natural allies would be offical Gobwin Knob units, so Charlie would need to turn each one individually rather than just turning their leaders. Of course, a campaign of croaking and decrypting hobgobwins would surely turn the hobgobwin leaders faster than anything that Charlie could do.

I wish I knew for certain whether twolls were Gobwin Knob units or natural allies.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Kreistor » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:27 am

Xarx wrote:
Kreistor wrote:If he wants to rescue/capture Olive, a fast Archon siege on Tower is far more likely to succeed vs. Olive successfully overcoming a plethora of opposing Casters and Warlords.


Again, an airborne attack on the tower has zero chance of occurring, let alone succeeding, when it's not Charlie's turn.


If they can't get to Tower, then they can't come through the Gate. You just made an argument against them being Archons in all cases. To be there, they would have to have moved there on Charlescomm Turn the day before, which is very early. Archons cannot out-foolamancer Jack, so he would have detected them when they entered the city

To be at the Gate, they must move on this Haffaton Turn. That means on Side, Allied, or Natural Allies.

Difficult to see an Heir existing to continue Side.

Not many Allies in range. Charlie's fliers are the best option, but you reject that notion because you don't think they're on Turn. For those that don't, the Tower invasion plays to Archon strengths, casting doubt they'd be at the Gate.

Leaving Natural Allies. Don't count against your limit, so can be scattered in nearby cities, and collected during the Trial. Their Turn would not end with Olive's death, so they can still be at the Gate, and with the end of their contract, know they just saw Olive and Haffaton die.

Lilwwik wrote:I wish I knew for certain whether twolls were Gobwin Knob units or natural allies.


http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE022_elddonnemar_ZhopaBasket.png wrote:Gobwin Knob had popped two Twolls on its first two turns since being rebuilt
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Mogster2 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:07 am

"Ding dong, the witch is dead!"
"Which old witch?"
"The Good... Witch...?"

vintermann wrote:The dancing Munchkins are obviously high elves. Munchie-kins and all.

Munchie-kins. I love it. :lol:

0beron wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:It could be possible that, unlike regular units, natural allies do not automatically disband when a side falls.
I think we actually do have suitable precedent on this. When the Gobwins rose up and killed Saline, GK lost the capital, so the side ended. But the Gobwins didn't disband.

GK didn't lose the capital because Stanley had been named Saline's heir. He inherited GK by regicide, or so Ansom believed.

Jabberwocky wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:
Also, I just googled the signamancy of lilies, and it seems white lilies symbolize innocence. Take from that what you will.


I (and it seems most American culture) associates white lilies with funerals.

"The flower most commonly associated with funeral services in the popular mind is the lily. Lilies are often interpreted as a symbol of the innocence that has been restored to the soul of the departed."

So I'm going with 'Lily = Ding Dong Bitch be croaked"

And it seems Japan associates lilies with lesbians. Take from that what you will. :o

Steve-D wrote:The troops were Haffaton; they burnt the garden at Olives command once her turn started; she knew anyone approaching the city on her turn would get her croaked, so she ordered her nearby units to burn the forest to give cover for her escape, but when she died the units didn't disband, they switched allegiance to Charlie; their old ruler. This is why they cry "the witch is dead".

Now Charlie will force the treaty on Faq units, to hold until death, that they might never reveal to anyone what they know about him.

That has possibilities. We now know that Jack had some kind of contract with Charlie that is no longer in effect.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby mortissimus » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:25 am

Mogster2 wrote:
Jabberwocky wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:
Also, I just googled the signamancy of lilies, and it seems white lilies symbolize innocence. Take from that what you will.


I (and it seems most American culture) associates white lilies with funerals.

"The flower most commonly associated with funeral services in the popular mind is the lily. Lilies are often interpreted as a symbol of the innocence that has been restored to the soul of the departed."

So I'm going with 'Lily = Ding Dong Bitch be croaked"

And it seems Japan associates lilies with lesbians. Take from that what you will. :o


That Erfworld can be included in the example list on the Bury Your Gays trope?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby drachefly » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:06 am

Mikalyaran wrote:Stanley had mentioned have to kill a bunch of Gobwins when he got back from FAQ.


Not that it alters your point, but those were two separate incidents. Wanda had Saline as an overlord for a time.

Assuming Jack tells Parson about Charlie's natural-ally-turning-abilities soon, I would have Parson advise Stanley to go for a long dwagon flight (in the city) and order the other dwagons to maintain strict formation - that would keep him fairly safe from the hobgobwins if they turn. I don't think there are that many hobgobwin archers.

But I wouldn't want to tell him why. It'd screw with things long-term.

For the long term, I'd order a garrison reshuffle, reposting most of the hobgobwins one of the neighboring cities - and make it more than a 1 turn journey.

That would probably make the potential gains from messing with them small enough that Charlie might just leave them in place.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:36 am

drachefly wrote:That would probably make the potential gains from messing with them small enough that Charlie might just leave them in place.
Don't forget about the gobwins. Maybe they're not really gone; they're just in hiding, mining to build up their strength and maybe even getting shmuckers from Charlie, and then when the timing is perfect Charlie plans to hit the city with overwhelming force from beneath. The only warning the city will get is when Gobwin Knob's turn doesn't start at sunrise because the gobwins are taking their turn and already rushing into the city. The hobgobwins are probably in on the plan, but just moving them to another city won't save Gobwin Knob.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lipkin » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:38 am

Hopefully Parson wasn't dumb enough to leave Gobwin Knob lightly defended, though with the defense bonuses and the Dwagons, he probably wouldn't figure he would need much.

But with the Decrypted answering to Wanda, and the Gobwins potentially Charlie's toys, Stanley basically only has his dwagons and himself to rely on. Oh, and some Twolls. Still, should the Gobwins turn, Stanley would be in a very tight spot. Especially because you can bet Charlie wouldn't make his move until he had enough Archons in the area to counter the Dwagon force.

I didn't think Charlie was in danger at the time when everyone was bringing it up, but Gobwins and Archons would probably be too much.

Though if the plan to capture a ruler and hold a side hostage were to be used against Gobwin Knob... It would be very like Charlie to keep Stanley prisoner to keep Parson under his thumb. Wanda would probably turn and start a new side to keep from being controlled in that case, but Parson would be stuck.

...

That would actually be very cool.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Xarx » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:45 am

Kreistor wrote:If they can't get to Tower, then they can't come through the Gate. You just made an argument against them being Archons in all cases.

Of course they can't come through the gate; that's why they're trying to lure Olive out. As I said.

Kreistor wrote:To be there, they would have to have moved there on Charlescomm Turn the day before, which is very early.

That is correct, however we know that Charlie likes to post archons near hot spots. And he has very good reason to want to keep an eye on Olive.

Kreistor wrote:Archons cannot out-foolamancer Jack, so he would have detected them when they entered the city.

As Chief Warlord, Jillian would have detected them if they had entered the city. But they didn't. Because they couldn't, because they have no move. Even if they had allied with Haffaton (which to be clear, I don't think they did), their move would not be restored.
Titans wrote:Why could the Archons cast the DDR spell? They were part of the Coalition and it was now technically their turn. But they could not move because all of Charlescomm's units' move went to zero when Charlie ended turn. Move and hits are restored to full at the beginning of a side's turn, and (re)forming an alliance does not count as starting a new turn.

As for Jack, we don't actually know what he sees outside the gate. Probably he sees what's really there, but everyone's a little busy at the moment. Not to mention high as a kite.

Kreistor wrote:To be at the Gate, they must move on this Haffaton Turn. That means on Side, Allied, or Natural Allies.

No, to be at the gate, they must be in the neighboring hex. To go through the gate, they would have to be moving on Haffaton's turn, but they didn't go through the gate. They didn't even try. If they were Olive's allies, why didn't they try to help her or obey her orders? If they were betraying her or had low loyalty, why were they even there?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:01 am

Xarx wrote:If they were Olive's allies, why didn't they try to help her or obey her orders? If they were betraying her or had low loyalty, why were they even there?
Those are interesting and difficult questions. If they weren't Olive's allies, then why was she trying to give them orders and trying to get them to come into the city on Haffaton's turn? Surely she would know who they were. Perhaps they were allies who set fire to the garden and went to the gate with intention of rescuing Olive (or Judy, depending on whether they have a way of knowing about the change in leadership), and then they became overwhelmed by the hero smoke. On the other hand that seems like a foolish mistake for them to make, and if they were high elves then I'd expect them to be immune, or at least highly resistant. It's quite puzzling.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Xarx » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:16 am

She was trying to give them orders because she thought they were her allies, or her troops (remember that as a prisoner she has no natural Thinkamancy link to her side). I'm arguing that's because of a veil. No-one has yet pointed out the real problem with my argument, which is: How can the archons cast a veil off-turn? I'm not sure that they can, unless there are hostile (ie Haffaton) forces in the same hex. Which begs the question, if there are, why aren't they at the main gate?

I admit that this is a weakness in the argument, but I don't think it's fatal. Time will tell.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lipkin » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:29 am

Xarx wrote:She was trying to give them orders because she thought they were her allies, or her troops (remember that as a prisoner she has no natural Thinkamancy link to her side). I'm arguing that's because of a veil. No-one has yet pointed out the real problem with my argument, which is: How can the archons cast a veil off-turn? I'm not sure that they can, unless there are hostile (ie Haffaton) forces in the same hex. Which begs the question, if there are, why aren't they at the main gate?

I admit that this is a weakness in the argument, but I don't think it's fatal. Time will tell.

Nothing stopping units from casting off turn, just casting across hex boundaries. Juice is replenished at dawn, so as long as they have juice off turn, or at night, units can cast. I think...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:48 am

Mogster2 wrote:
0beron wrote:I think we actually do have suitable precedent on this. When the Gobwins rose up and killed Saline, GK lost the capital, so the side ended. But the Gobwins didn't disband.
GK didn't lose the capital because Stanley had been named Saline's heir.
Yes, they did. The rebellious Gobwins took the city. When the Capital of a side is lost but the Ruler lives, the units go Barbarian, so Stanley was still able to reclaim the city easily and thus restart the side, but the Side DID end in the interim.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Xarx » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:53 am

Lipkin wrote:Nothing stopping units from casting off turn, just casting across hex boundaries. Juice is replenished at dawn, so as long as they have juice off turn, or at night, units can cast. I think...


Sadly for my theory, I don't think that's right:

Titans wrote:Why could Parson not have ordered a veil to be cast, even if the Foolamancer had been in the group with the wounded dwagons? It was not his turn, and they were not under attack. Once Jillian entered the hex, a theoretical Foolamancer within that hex could have veiled, but it wouldn't have been very effective at fooling her.


But maybe being adjacent to a hostile city counts as being under attack.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Mikalyaran » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:56 am

Xarx wrote:
hjed wrote:If Charlie burnt the garden he would have to have units in the city, and FAQ wouldn't have been able to take it.


The garden is outside the city proper, as we can see in episode 50:
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/IPTSF_Text_50

So the archons don't need to be in the city; they just need to be in the neighboring hex, which happens to be the garden. Far from impossible.

Edit: fixed link


The garden is not in another hex. When FAQ captures the city Jillian gets info on the Hex.

http://www.erfworld.com/2013/03/inner-p ... isode-064/

"She took another step, dragging her feet along so she wouldn’t trip over anyone. But someone nearby—Marie or Wanda—suddenly gasped, and Jillian halted in her tracks. She raised her sword and tilted her head back.

Brand new information about this city was flooding her mind: Level 5, +1 garrison walls, a dungeon zone, +2 ...farm? oh, the garden, +2 tower but no spells left on it... And even with Jack’s crazy Foolamancy view, she could see that the color in the Wizard’s Hall had shifted. The floor was still black, but the puke-emerald was all gone. The curtains hung in proper green, Faq green."

So there is that. Shall we re-evalute? Or am I misreading this? Seems to me the garden is in the city "hex" according to this post. Just its own special zone like a harbor. And if I'm reading this right...

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -09-12.jpg


To capture a city you have to control the garrison, not the whole city. So the units at the gate could have been in the garden zone outside the wall zone of the city hex. The guys at the gates were probably High Elves for farm the gardens outside the city. They've probably been waiting at the gate on Olive's orders in case she got an escape chance. So I'm betting that Charlie did indeed get them to burn the garden somehow and betray her. He was clearly hoping to capture her but I bet he'll take the fall of Haffaton just as well. New sides rising up means new business. But I've still got no idea what Wanda, Jack, and Jillian know that caused Charlie to put them under NDA's. I could just be what we already know but that doesn't seem like that valueable of intel. Interesting for sure but I think there is something else still coming. Further Charlie can't have enough units in the area to take the city I think but that's an entirely meta statement. If he did have enough forces why would he bother with NDA's? I won't be surprised if it has to due with an ability to charm/influence/control natural allies at all though since that is a pretty big deal. Parson comments on how pissed Stanley would be if he knew the bracer predicted Charlie was behind the gobwins disappearance, we saw Jitterati get wrecked when their allies betrayed them, and Saline was taken down by them as well. If Stanley hadn't been and heir that would have been the end of GK. The NDA's could be about something else but this does seem the most likely option.
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