Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Althernai » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:00 am

ftl wrote:I'm ascribing all of the alien-ness to Erfworld itself, not to the people that live there. If Maggie were transported to Stupidworld, I figure she'd be sort of short but able to have babies the conventional earth way, she'd need to eat and wouldn't heal at dawn and wouldn't have magic telepathy powers.

I think she needs to eat regardless, she would just have to obtain food for herself as there would not be any rations popping at dawn. However, I don't think she would be able to have children -- the necessary anatomy just isn't there. Erfworld units being male and female is cosmetic. That is, they appear to exhibit the external characteristics of two genders, but these do not lead to the expected differences between the two. It's very much like the slaughterhouse: it's there for show and a warlord supervising it makes a difference, but the real function is performed in a completely different way.

Of course, beings powerful enough craft a spell that can transport a person across realities can probably also change this person's physiology. However, this is not what the current incarnation of the summoning spell does. Unlike Erfworld units, Parson has no visible stats and I believe he does bleed (though I can't seem to find the specific page I was thinking of). He was not made into an Erfworlder; he's just an extradimensional abomination that happens to be disarmingly similar to the natives.

Conversely, Parson's been transported to Erfworld, so now he has magic telepathy powers and gives a Bonus and runs into hex boundaries and heals at dawn. And if he became overlord, he'd be able to order his capital to pop him an heir, but as it is he can't have children the normal way because Erfworld doesn't work that way.

This I agree with. He wouldn't be able to have children (even if somebody summoned him a human female from Earth) because what happens at dawn is not so much healing as restoration to a default state which would make any pregnancy very shortlived.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Lilwik » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:26 am

Tonot wrote:I wouldn't consider myself still human if some magician made me "work" the way Erf-world makes their people work. In fact, I would not be human any more, I would be some sort of golem or liche or ghoul, all things universally known to be "Not Human".
Are you saying that Parson isn't human either? None of the Erfworlders seem like golems or liches from my perspective, but Parson is clearly now fueled and controlled by magic like the rest of them.

Tonot wrote:Re their being human, have we seen any entrails when they have been cut into bloody gobbets?. No liver 'n' lights = no humanity.
They definitely have things on the inside. We learned that from Wanda early in Book 0, such as Episode 5 and Episode 6. We know at least that they have spines, muscles, sinew, and hearts.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Tonot » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:41 am

Lilwik wrote:
Tonot wrote:I wouldn't consider myself still human if some magician made me "work" the way Erf-world makes their people work. In fact, I would not be human any more, I would be some sort of golem or liche or ghoul, all things universally known to be "Not Human".
Are you saying that Parson isn't human either? None of the Erfworlders seem like golems or liches from my perspective, but Parson is clearly now fueled and controlled by magic like the rest of them.

Well, certainly a modified human at the very least, are you saying he would still be human if, against his will, all these things, these clearly super-human things, were being done to him by technology?. (edit to add, to make clearer what my point was there, the main way his being modified this way changes his humanity is the whole "Duty with a capital D" thing. His obvious robotic aspect now, his lack of free will in a pure mechanical fashion )
We have a term for it, cyborg. Is a cyborg human?, I guess so, but is one ONLY human?. No, or we wouldn't have the modifier term, right?.

Lilwik wrote:
Tonot wrote:Re their being human, have we seen any entrails when they have been cut into bloody gobbets?. No liver 'n' lights = no humanity.
They definitely have things on the inside. We learned that from Wanda early in Book 0, such as Episode 5 and Episode 6. We know at least that they have spines, muscles, sinew, and hearts.


Thanks for that, I had not remembered.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby ftl » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:50 am

Well, in that case, I think we'll agree on the statement that "Erfworlders are pretty much as human as Parson is" :-p even though for you that agreement would be because you think neither are human.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Tonot » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:59 am

Well, it is only my humble opinion. And the humble bit more than normal, of course, because it is a story written by a talented person, who obviously knows full well the truth we are humbling around and about, right?.

I think if we, technologically, did the things to Parson that Erf-world has done, he would not be allowed to serve either of our peoples on a jury. His judgement would be suspect, his free will, his humanity.

*shrug* but what do I know, I haven't picked a winner in the last thirty Ranfurly Shield matches.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Jabberwocky » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:52 am

Nothing to see here, folks.
Last edited by Jabberwocky on Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby mortissimus » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:59 am

This thread makes me long for Parson to start his own side so he can pop kids. Lil' Parsons, popping all grown and knowledgeable about tactics and such.

Tonot wrote:
Lilwik wrote:If a wizard conjured a thing that looked like a hamburger, tasted like a hamburger, and seemed to be exactly a hamburger according to all imaginable examinations, then would you be the only one to refuse to call it a hamburger simply because it was created by magic instead of by ordinary means?

"A working definition" means I accept it does need work, right?. At least it does in New Zealand English, but then there is so much divergence in the International English-es.

No, I wouldn't consider myself still human if some magician made me "work" the way Erf-world makes their people work. In fact, I would not be human any more, I would be some sort of golem or liche or ghoul, all things universally known to be "Not Human". Right?.
And, no, I bet I would not be the only person sure it was not to be accurately called "hamburger", purely because lots of people are logical and would say "At best we can call it a sort of qualified "hamburger" because real hamburger is not conjured, it is ground up from nominally eatable bits of bovine". In actual fact, the US FDA would probably go for anyone selling conjured "Hamburger", cause it wasn't real.


That reminds me of videos with (human, Stupidworld) magicians conjuring up (by sleight of hand) bills in a shop or bank. The clerk is generally very suspicious and uncertain on wheter or not to accept it for payment.

Tonot wrote:We have a term for it, cyborg. Is a cyborg human?, I guess so, but is one ONLY human?. No, or we wouldn't have the modifier term, right?.


But what with Western inclusiveness and all, the actual cyborgs we have running around with robotic limbs or pacemakers, we see as fully humans and do not call cyborg. The term is in general reserved for something imagined.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Jabberwocky » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:02 am

Althernai wrote: and I believe he does bleed (though I can't seem to find the specific page I was thinking of). He was not made into an Erfworlder; he's just an extradimensional abomination that happens to be disarmingly similar to the natives.


http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/ ... mission_25

"The cut, the bloodstain, and the little hole in his sock were all repaired the next morning"
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Tonot » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:19 am

Jabberwocky wrote:
Tonot wrote:
Can Parsons humanity ( his ability to make babies ) trump Maggies in-humanity ( Her utter inability, nothing to do with fertility, ABSOLUTELY INHERENT inability to make babies ) and allow them, together , to make babies.
If you guys can shut your minds that hard, that firmly, that this seems likely, then, well, why shouldn't he also trump ACEs inabilities plural, to make babies. Man, I should let you argue my side of this, Jabberwocky, you do it so well!. :P


Only if you deliberately misunderstand everything I typed in every possible way. Also, hey. I have an absolutely inherent inability to make babies because I was born without certain internal organs. So I guess I ain't human then.

Really?. You were born without gametes?. You really can't contribute to the making of a baby?. That is a very rare occurrence in Humans, but it does happen, so don't worry, you are still human.

Jabberwocky wrote:No, you really seem to just be scrabbling around to construct an argument for Erfworlders not being human, not being people, not being able to be people in Parson's eyes. Which pretty much goes directly against 5 years of comics.



Tell me how they are Human?. Do they have human DNA?. Are they born from Humans?.

And you again repeat that I am saying they are not people, when I never once said so, and have three times said OF COURSE THEY ARE PEOPLE.

Why?. Isn't just addressing what I actually say good enough for you?.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Lilwik » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:02 am

Tonot wrote:Tell me how they are Human?. Do they have human DNA?. Are they born from Humans?
Do we have reason to suspect that they don't have human DNA? We've heard nothing about DNA up to this point, but when something looks this much like a human I'm not going to guess that it has rabbit DNA.

Surely you don't think that being born by a human is required to make someone human. What if someone were born by an artificial womb?
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Sir Shadow » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:02 am

On the subject of DNA, Overlord Firbaugh and his two children looked similar. That could be some inkling of DNA or just Signamancy, so take it as you will.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Tonot » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:04 am

I am not a fanatic, or closed minded. If someone has some proof of something that convinces me my previous idea was wrong, I examine it and then accept it.



Someone just tell me what facts about them makes so many of you convinced they are human.

Because I have explained what facts about them I think prove they are not, and all that has been offered to me in response seems to be feelings and wistfulness.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Chance Gardener » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:31 am

I just wanted to say that Maggie just keeps getting more and more awesome.
And it was poignant to hear Parson's lament over the loss of his trusted friendships.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Jabberwocky » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:38 am

No one in particular wrote:\
I'm imagining... Jack, Sizemore, Wanda, Jillian, Maggie, Ansom and... hmm... Jojo? You know, someone sketchy to stir things up.


You'd need Janice to keep them all from killing each other.

My picks!
Janice
Olive
Tommy
Wanda
Stanley
Jojo
Jillian
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby 0beron » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:50 am

I'm hoping that Parson discovers he is wrong about Jack. I mean from our perspective Jack seems less affected by Decryption than others before him, but that doesn't tell us the whole story. So perhaps in time it will be made apparent that Jack is still pretty much the same. Plus we know it's possible to turn after Decryption, so Jack may eventually do that.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby No one in particular » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:38 am

Jabberwocky wrote:
No one in particular wrote:\
I'm imagining... Jack, Sizemore, Wanda, Jillian, Maggie, Ansom and... hmm... Jojo? You know, someone sketchy to stir things up.


You'd need Janice to keep them all from killing each other.

My picks!
    Janice
    Olive
    Tommy
    Wanda
    Stanley
    Jojo
    Jillian

Olive? Tommy? I like it! Having a couple of folks who've been dead for more than two years (700+ turns since Faq fell) is a bold move!

Ooh, wait, I see... you're hoping that they hook up again! "Set aside their differences, now that all the politics are out of the way, and really, you know, get to KNOW each other..."

How nec-romantic of you. ;D
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:55 am

0beron wrote:I'm hoping that Parson discovers he is wrong about Jack. I mean from our perspective Jack seems less affected by Decryption than others before him, but that doesn't tell us the whole story. So perhaps in time it will be made apparent that Jack is still pretty much the same. Plus we know it's possible to turn after Decryption, so Jack may eventually do that.

Decryption forces one to turn to a new side, and to see that side in a positive light. Have we seen inside the minds of decrypted that were GK forces before they died? Maybe the 'enforcement' compulsion is a lot less, or they don't notice as much of a difference, because their world view doesn't need as much alteration. If Jack already had strong positive feelings for Wanda, his world view hasn't significantly changed, so he might very well be "the same old" Jack.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Noigel » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:46 am

The art is definitely in transition here. Some people are dissing it but I'd like to add constructive comments:

- The previous update's "bottom" picture of Parson and Maggie was great (10/10), great Parson and you really get a feel of the uneasiness with Maggie's expression, great expressive eyes for her too. One picture and you can tell the complete time/effort was dedicated to it.

- This update's "top" image of Parson and Maggie's back is good too, but not great in my opinion (7/10). Again, great Parson. The back of Maggie looks half witchy and half business-women... that's what you expect... but then there's a little underlying sluttiness thrown into this particular pic that we don't see in the last's update's Maggie. Look at these pics side by side (the previous Maggie versus Maggie from Behind.) One Maggie is sexy, the other isn't. This particular picture's Maggie resembles more "half business woman, half lingerie model," more like an Archon or even Wanda than the Maggie we know in my opinion. (Sure Maggie could be sexy but I'm betting she'd turn it on and off when she wants, not exude it constantly. The previous update's non-sexy Maggie feels more true to her character.)

- The forward facing image of Maggie broke my story-immersion completely (2/10). The jaw is too square/horizontal (See Book 2 - Page 114 for the Maggie we envision in our minds... though for the record I like Book 2 - Epilogue 05's version of Maggie better than Xin's on Page 114). In this bottom picture the witchiness is completely gone... the sexiness in the top picture is completely gone... and what we have is a complete business woman... she looks like a news-anchor. The artist is also having some trouble with the blank eyes in this one... I gotta say I have no idea how Xin learned to do blank eyes and make them both subtle and expressive at the same time, that's quite a challenge, but I think the new artist will get them down (Book 2 - Epilogue 05's Maggie's eyes are awesome.) I suspect more time was put into the Parson/Back of Maggie image and the bottom Maggie image barely made the deadline...

I think the new artist is getting comfortable with Parson and is really capturing him. I think he's struggling with some of the others characters as he's trying to find their visual identities. This is normal and I love that we're getting quick, small visual updates as this guy cuts his teeth. I'll try to review the future pictures too if you think this is helpful from a fan reader's... er... viewer's perspective. :)
Last edited by Noigel on Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby 0beron » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:49 am

Yeah, Marbit, basically the way I'm seeing it is that in a way, Wanda counts as her own "side" when it comes to Decryption and turning, so I'm hypothesizing that if he has indeed changed a lot, Jack might "turn" to Gowbin Knob. So he wouldn't really change sides persay, just turn away from Wanda.
You make a good point though about the degree of world-view change that is involved. Since he was already on the same side as Wanda and viewed her so positively, he didn't have to change much and thus may still be the same.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Lipkin » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:38 pm

0beron wrote:Yeah, Marbit, basically the way I'm seeing it is that in a way, Wanda counts as her own "side" when it comes to Decryption and turning, so I'm hypothesizing that if he has indeed changed a lot, Jack might "turn" to Gowbin Knob. So he wouldn't really change sides persay, just turn away from Wanda.
You make a good point though about the degree of world-view change that is involved. Since he was already on the same side as Wanda and viewed her so positively, he didn't have to change much and thus may still be the same.

I see decryption much as Wanda's suggestion spell of Jillian way back in book 1. The decrypted unit makes their own reasons to follow Wanda. If pushed too far out of their nature, they may turn, but Wanda's proximity helps to fight against that. Ossomer, fixated upon honor and familial loyalty, was able to turn when pushed too hard. Jack on the other hand, is nowhere near as conflicted. Decryption has rewritten his mental history. He looks at Wanda as a sister now, and wonders if that's how he always thought of her. He had other reasons for challenging and teasing her in the past, but now it's a sibling rivalry, with an underlying of familial loyalty and love. He may tease her, or advise her, but I think in the end, he'll always follow her.

Unless she starts ordering him around like he's just another minion. If he starts feeling she doesn't view him as a brother, and as just another slave, I could see him rebelling then. Maybe.
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