Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby drachefly » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:11 am

Perhaps they could have split up into multiple sides but live together and keep debating philosophy. That way they'd avoid the overly-large-side penalty, while also avoiding the usual problems of splitting off sides.

And that being viable is why Charlie had to shut them down.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby DoctorJest » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:24 am

"Much of what we might find would be products of the Olive Garden, and not fit to be consumed."

Truer words have never been spoken. :mrgreen:
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:25 am

Oh yeah, that multiple-side idea could totally be a thing. I'm not sure they would actually do it though because most of the casters are total sissies. They are so loyal to Banhammer, and also I think most would be afraid of being Rulers.
Jillian miiiiight have been able to talk them into it though, if she were crafty enough to think of it herself, by pointing out that such a move would likely pop even MORE casters. Such a bonus would not only increase their philosophical court, but also make the idea of a sustainable peaceful empire even more possible.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby ftl » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:24 pm

Deo wrote:I am wondering if capitals that are unclaimed for a certain amount of time have a chance to spawn new sides.


We know barbarians Warlords can pop in the wild; at the very least, those randomly-popped warlords can capture those neutral capitals and start sides that way.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:33 pm

ftl wrote:
Deo wrote:I am wondering if capitals that are unclaimed for a certain amount of time have a chance to spawn new sides.
We know barbarians Warlords can pop in the wild; at the very least, those randomly-popped warlords can capture those neutral capitals and start sides that way.
Financially I expect this would be hard, given how much help Jillian was given to restart FAQ. I suspect a Barbarian wouldn't be able to accomplish this for quite some time, because unless they had help, they'd need to do a lot of Mercenary work in order to save up the funds for even a level 1.
We know that there is some legitimacy to the claim that Royals are popped to rule, so I suppose it would make sense that rarely, a new royal would pop in an abandoned capital with the funds to rebuild it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby barawn » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:38 pm

canabal wrote:As is currently written, this seems to be all from Marie (emphasis mine, duh):

“I find it remahkable,” said Sister Marie, “that our own Princess, our brave Chief Wahload, is coming undah such attack, aftah winning Faq’s very suhvival today.” Her tone was stern and matronly, and aimed directly at Betsy. “You don’t get to stand there and criticize. She was Fated to do this. Take your complaints to the Titans, if you want to.” She pointed at Jillian. “Her, you should be thanking. Faq is reborn today.

All very, very [sic]. So why did her accent drop? Do you think the other characters noticed? Rob is too precise to assume that this is an oversight (though he is only human, and it's late everywhere in the U.S. at the moment, if he happened just to have finished this installment recently). If it's deliberate and a new detail about Marie, what on Erf could it mean? If this is a habit of Marie's I'm not familiar with, or due to something I don't know, please clue me in.


Marie's accent does come and go in general. On book 2, page 67, she used 'What' instead of 'wot', and 'with', then 'wit' in the same sentence. She also used "figure", and then later used "figyah." I think it's safe to say that the idea of it being a comfortable way of speaking is probably right. That, plus the fact that there aren't really any words in that last portion that would be replaced, and I think that's your answer.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Zeku » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:43 pm

I find the behavior of the court to be consistent with what we experience in the real world.

The 'doves' will finally do a 180 once they have irrefutable proof of violence or misdeeds, but until then, they will fight every implication that they should shift their view. I actually agree with this attitude.

Of course we have a very similar situation in the news today, as one group petitions for war, yet again, while another believes we should mind our own business. The key difference from the Erfworld situation is that the real world situation does not directly threaten the US, and only possibly threatens our "allies."

Banhammer's entire situation is somewhat opaque to me. I find him to be quite irrelevant, due to his continuous lack of good decision making, his cloistered worldview, and of course, his impending destruction.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Arky » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:26 pm

I feel that Banhammer's re-invigoration and "vision quest" courtesy of the Archons is probably pretty similar to the way he was persuaded by Olive, given the way it had to take place out of sight of his court. He's a dirty old man, this one.

As for the non-Marie, non-Jack part of the court, they obviously don't like Jillian and automatically assume that anything she is in favour of is bad (especially when it involves violence as a first resort). And hey, until deep into this chapter 0 Jillian was my least favourite character and I know I wasn't alone on that. I can sympathise to a certain extent with the court of FAQ not trusting Jillian's point of view.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Xarx » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:46 pm

0beron wrote:
ftl wrote:
Deo wrote:I am wondering if capitals that are unclaimed for a certain amount of time have a chance to spawn new sides.
We know barbarians Warlords can pop in the wild; at the very least, those randomly-popped warlords can capture those neutral capitals and start sides that way.
Financially I expect this would be hard, given how much help Jillian was given to restart FAQ. I suspect a Barbarian wouldn't be able to accomplish this for quite some time, because unless they had help, they'd need to do a lot of Mercenary work in order to save up the funds for even a level 1.
We know that there is some legitimacy to the claim that Royals are popped to rule, so I suppose it would make sense that rarely, a new royal would pop in an abandoned capital with the funds to rebuild it.


You need funds to rebuild a city. I'm not sure you need funds to claim an intact one. If you did, it's hard to see how a barbarian could ever start a new side independently. Their purses will only hold so much.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:49 pm

Xarx wrote:You need funds to rebuild a city. I'm not sure you need funds to claim an intact one. If you did, it's hard to see how a barbarian could ever start a new side independently. Their purses will only hold so much.
Ooooh, that's very true....I wonder what what would look like, since we've never really seen it. Although, I suppose that's what Stanely did after the rebellion, and what FAQ just did with Efbaum....although it's not exactly the same. We've never seen a Barbarian make a "new" side by claiming an intact capital.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby multilis » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:30 pm

Xarx wrote:You need funds to rebuild a city. I'm not sure you need funds to claim an intact one. If you did, it's hard to see how a barbarian could ever start a new side independently. Their purses will only hold so much.

Given that Stanley planned to go to "ruins" of FAQ and he couldn't take is treasury with him (thus good to spend it on perfect warlord), it probably doesn't take that much funding to turn a destroyed capital into a level 1 city. The difference with Jill is was going for higher level city popping some of best air units in game.

I think the biggest flaw with split up and form bunch of sides is they would then have to fight to defend them. You get a bunch of level 1 or 2 capitals, build them up a little and then suddenly genghis khan comes in for plunder. Who will protect you?

So far they only had Jill.

FAQ worked because they had a hard to get to location, and enough casters of the right type to hide it. If they were to expand they would have to do quite a bit of war to defend themselves, especially at first when they are easier prey to large armies.

I have played role of peaceable horde in massive multiplayer game, takes many players and a percent of them willing to fight hard for it to work. Hardest at first when the players are behind in building up their mini kingdoms, have to fight off the raiders. Once group grows large enough and still gets along, becomes "too big to be worth fighting" *if* your side is willing to fight really hard whenever it is attacked to make sure enemy does not profit.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby ftl » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:58 pm

I think Jillian doesn't even *want* a peaceful side. She wants a standard side, like all the others in Erfworld, taking over territory and conquering its neighbors and so on. She sees a huge field of easy-to-conquer cities - a great situation for a side! - but that would necessitate dropping the peaceful nature. Jillian's fine with that, Banhammer would never stand for it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:02 pm

ftl wrote:I think Jillian doesn't even *want* a peaceful side.
Agreed, but the "peaceful" side is the best she could ever hope for given her father's position. Even a "peaceful" one is going to need defending though, which would be her place. She'd have pretty much the same lot as she's always had, the difference would be she'd be defending her own perimeter cities instead of doing mercenary work.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:13 pm

0beron wrote:
ftl wrote:I think Jillian doesn't even *want* a peaceful side.
Agreed, but the "peaceful" side is the best she could ever hope for given her father's position. Even a "peaceful" one is going to need defending though, which would be her place. She'd have pretty much the same lot as she's always had, the difference would be she'd be defending her own perimeter cities instead of doing mercenary work.


If it weren't for the fact that we know she doesn't spin off her own side. this would be the perfect time for her to do so. LIke she says they could build a dream side from the ruins of Haffaton. However, I don't think that spinning off a bunch of sides ruled by the casters of FAQ would work. The way these casters fight...give em a couple hundred turns running their own sides and they would almost def. fall to infighting. A little while out from under Banhammer's thumb might change their dispositions.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby multilis » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:18 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:
0beron wrote:
ftl wrote:I think Jillian doesn't even *want* a peaceful side.
Agreed, but the "peaceful" side is the best she could ever hope for given her father's position. Even a "peaceful" one is going to need defending though, which would be her place. She'd have pretty much the same lot as she's always had, the difference would be she'd be defending her own perimeter cities instead of doing mercenary work.


If it weren't for the fact that we know she doesn't spin off her own side. this would be the perfect time for her to do so. LIke she says they could build a dream side from the ruins of Haffaton. However, I don't think that spinning off a bunch of sides ruled by the casters of FAQ would work. The way these casters fight...give em a couple hundred turns running their own sides and they would almost def. fall to infighting. A little while out from under Banhammer's thumb might change their dispositions.

Perfect time for Jill, not perfect time for FAQ. As much as they don't like her, they need Jill to bring in mercenary money, or they would have to reduce number of casters. FAQ only had 3 cities (2 small) with more casters than most superpowers.

FAQ without being hidden would need those casters to play war (or loaned out to other war sides) in order to survive as one or many kingdoms. If they don't contribute to defend side then other sides will come to plunder and steal/turn casters.
Last edited by multilis on Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:21 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:The way these casters fight...give em a couple hundred turns running their own sides and they would almost def. fall to infighting. A little while out from under Banhammer's thumb might change their dispositions.
Hmmm interesting theory....but it would only apply if they actually DO rule. Though they would be capable of independent rule, I'm not so sure Banhammer would really let them reach that point. They would all stay in FAQ city together to continue philosophy and also because of how well-defended it's location is. The collective of sides would still act based on group consensus or Banhammer's wishes I feel.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby multilis » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:26 pm

0beron wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:The way these casters fight...give em a couple hundred turns running their own sides and they would almost def. fall to infighting. A little while out from under Banhammer's thumb might change their dispositions.
Hmmm interesting theory....but it would only apply if they actually DO rule. Though they would be capable of independent rule, I'm not so sure Banhammer would really let them reach that point. They would all stay in FAQ city together to continue philosophy and also because of how well-defended it's location is. The collective of sides would still act based on group consensus or Banhammer's wishes I feel.

In my experience, playing with a "500 player" side where perhaps only 250+ are active/play every few days... they might get along. You do have silly disagreements, you let those that disagree split off if they want/quit working with the allied horde, but players will tend to stick with horde as outside the peace horde is more dangerous.

The biggest challenge may be to get each mini-side to help its allies if attacked, and fighting over "fairness" of how help is given when the pirates strike. Eg Pirates wipe out half of Orwell's kingdom. An allied army with mostly Jill's forces defeats the pirates. Who gets the 3 cities that were lost/plundered after war is won? Does Orwell get everything back? Does Jill get something for doing the hardest fighting?

If you can't agree on fairness then your kingdom falls apart in arguments/infighting. If you can agree on fairness but that involves starving your better fighters while your portions that are bad at defending themselves waste the resources then pirates will eventually defeat your fighters and plunder your alliance.

A workable system may be Jill gets the cities she captured back based on who won the fighting, and Orwell can buy them back by providing services, creating scrolls, etc. Hard to get everyone to agree on economy, takes a few skilled people in different areas to make everything work, a leadership they trust to manage disputes and economic managers that can organise trade system that is profit rather than source of constant bickering and waste.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lilwik » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:00 pm

0beron wrote:We know that there is some legitimacy to the claim that Royals are popped to rule, so I suppose it would make sense that rarely, a new royal would pop in an abandoned capital with the funds to rebuild it.
According to Book 1, Page 79a, Klog #9, "Royals claim to trace their lineage back to the days of the Titans." Of course they are free to claim things that have no connection to the truth and this strikes me as something they would like to claim whether it were true or not, but lacking other evidence we have to assume it's true and a royal can only ever be popped by another royal.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:12 pm

Lilwik wrote:According to Book 1, Page 79a, Klog #9, "Royals claim to trace their lineage back to the days of the Titans." Of course they are free to claim things that have no connection to the truth and this strikes me as something they would like to claim whether it were true or not, but lacking other evidence we have to assume it's true and a royal can only ever be popped by another royal.
Interesting...I was actually thinking of the exact same quote and interpreting it in the opposite manner. The way I took it was to imply that the only way Royals could make that claim and back it up was if they popped out of the blue like I suggested. For a "Barbarian" unit to appear out of nowhere and be a Royal would be the ultimate proof they were "chosen by the Titans" and destined to Rule, whereas it would be harder to prove you were a "descendant" of some original Royal side.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby jkosta » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:43 pm

Jinren wrote:Perhaps he means that he experienced the vision alone, projected for him via Archon? The Archons are providing the service but not sharing in the experience as his peers.

Was it ever confirmed that Banhammer is a warlord and not a caster? I assume it would have been important by now if he could cast but can't recall ever seeing it mentioned. In any case, assuming he is a warlord, he'd have no way to engage in whatever magic is required for visions without at least some assistance.

I suddenly wonder if the entire court culture of Faq arose because Banhammer was unhappy about being popped as a non-caster.

I assumed "vision quest" referred to "high on heroin flower smoke".
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