Epilogue 10 - Message to the Tool

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Re: Dodged a huge bullet

Postby raphfrk » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:16 pm

0beron wrote:Because of the situation with Charlie, Maggie might have just become pretty useless. Even if she is reunited with the Tool, her communications can be tapped unless the Great Minds figure out a way to defend against the 'Dish.


It appears that the dish has to specifically target a communication to listen in. This means that it wouldn't be possible to monitor her all the time.

Thinkagrams would probably be 100% monitored, but things like having info about the location and status of all friendly units would probably still work.

Interestingly, this would be a potential way to DoS the dish. Have Maggie make a thinkagram at the same moment you attach a stack of archons. Charlie would have to decide if he should provide the tool + leadership bonus to the archons, or listen in to the thinkagram.

I wonder if the dish can disrupt a link. Charlie "guessed" the make-up of the volcano link. I wonder if that was because he saw it form, or just has a better imagination/breath of experience than most other rulers.

That would be potentially lethal to the 3 GK casters making up the link.
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Re: Epilogue 10 - Message to the Tool

Postby atalex » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:36 pm

Aquillion wrote:
technojunkie wrote:Holy Cwap! I believe that's the first time Stanley has approved of Parson.


Well, we've known that Stanley hated Charlie since Charlie was first introduced. And attacking him is entirely logical from the Tool's perspective, since part of his ultimate goal is to unite the Arkentools under his control.


People keep saying "Stanley hates Charlie," but really that statement is based on literally nothing other than Wanda's explanation to Parson of why GK couldn't ally with Charlie all the way back in Book 1. Given what we now know, Wanda had powerful reasons to flat out lie to Parson if that's what it took to avoid breaking her oaths to Charlie.

Even this update is significant for what it does not contain -- a clear expression by Stanley of his hatred for Charlie. His reactions shift from (1) mild confusion at Charlie's involvement to (2) reluctance to oppose Charlie because the Titans might disapprove to (3) consideration of the idea that Parson might be able to defeat Charlie, until finally he says "Cool. Yeah, I hate that guy" with all the passionate intensity of someone declaring that they hate Brussels sprouts. If you truly hate someone, your response to the thought of going to war with them might be varied, but it would not include offhandedly saying "Cool."
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Re: Dodged a huge bullet

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:51 pm

raphfrk wrote:I wonder if the dish can disrupt a link. Charlie "guessed" the make-up of the volcano link. I wonder if that was because he saw it form, or just has a better imagination/breath of experience than most other rulers.
It wasn't likely that hard to guess. Charlie had an idea of what units GK had available and from there he figured such a large magical effect must have been based on a link.

You also forget Charlie has a truly great deal of experience with links as was revealed in the Book 9 updates.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Epilogue 10 - Message to the Tool

Postby Goshen » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:44 pm

Zeal wrote:
"...prepare the city for possible assault by air. From Charlescomm."


I bet five quatloos that this is misdirection and that if Gobwin Knob is attacked it will be through the dungeon by Marbits. I've been waiting far too long for that particular shoe to drop.

Yes, a successful attack would have to include something like that. GK is well fortified, has lots of Dwagons, and Stanly is good in battle, has the hammer.
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Re: Dodged a huge bullet

Postby cheeseaholic » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:41 pm

0beron wrote:
multilis wrote:The main danger off turn is Charlie attacking, unclear how well Stanley can play defense from a distance.
If Charlie attacks, it's gonna be GK City, and being IN combat is what Stanley is best at. So that's not a big concern.
The main danger of Stanley running a side the "old fashioned way" is the prolonged consequences. Because of the situation with Charlie, Maggie might have just become pretty useless. Even if she is reunited with the Tool, her communications can be tapped unless the Great Minds figure out a way to defend against the 'Dish.



I'd say that the main danger is Charlie blocking the natural thinkamancy as well as the casters'. If Charlie has the ability to actually interfere with thinkamancy, the cities could become truly cut off from each other. Depending on if the dish has an automatic continue task setting anyway. Charlie has to sleep sometime.

Tapping the rulers' natural thinkamancy would certainly explain the units available to the rockers' side.

No risk of false orders through forged natural thinkamancy though. Otherwise he'd just disband Parson.
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Re: Epilogue 10 - Message to the Tool

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:07 am

Well, he's never been seen using his powers to abuse peoples minds like that. His motives for that are open to speculation though I suppose.
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Re: Dodged a huge bullet

Postby ManaCaster » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:42 am

raphfrk wrote:It appears that the dish has to specifically target a communication to listen in. This means that it wouldn't be possible to monitor her all the time.

cheeseaholic wrote:Depending on if the dish has an automatic continue task setting anyway. Charlie has to sleep sometime.

Charlie can extend some of the Arkendish's abilities to his top archons in his tower. He can let them handle that.
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Re: Dodged a huge bullet

Postby raphfrk » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:51 am

ManaCaster wrote:Charlie can extend some of the Arkendish's abilities to his top archons in his tower. He can let them handle that.


Now that I look back at it, it seems that it was the link for the end-turn spell that disabled the dish. Maybe monitoring Thinkamancy doesn't require his full attention.

He did put Tramennis and Jillian on hold while (apparently) listening into the GK comms. That might have been that he wanted to personally listen into the conversation, rather than a requirement.
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Re: Epilogue 10 - Message to the Tool

Postby fjolnir » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:41 pm

Well, looks like Stanley IS a fan of the Kamina Model of world domination as depicted in my avatar....
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Re: Dodged a huge bullet

Postby multilis » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:05 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:No risk of false orders through forged natural thinkamancy though. Otherwise he'd just disband Parson.

In a world where volcanoes can be uncroaked and turns can be ended prematurely, I disagree with "no risk". Parson was asking about sending "false orders" in book 1.

It may be possible to give some types of false orders, but they come at a cost/saving throw and risk of backlash similar to suggestion spell we have already seen. So just as Wanda and Maggie could make "suggestions", it is possible that Charlie could impersonate Stanley to a degree if the "Stanley" orders were believable and at risk to himself (incapacitated or dead like Wanda or Misty) if con-job failed.

So for example (Charlie pretending to be Stanley) ordering Parson to contact Stanley might have 95% chance of succeeding, ordering Parson to make a deal with Charlie might have 30% chance of succeeding and ordering Parson to disband might have 1% chance of succeeding if it were possible to disband Parson with an order and fate didn't interfere. Any failure might risk 1/3 chance of incapacitated and 1/3 chance of death for Charlie.
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Re: Dodged a huge bullet

Postby Sixty » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:23 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:
raphfrk wrote:I wonder if the dish can disrupt a link. Charlie "guessed" the make-up of the volcano link. I wonder if that was because he saw it form, or just has a better imagination/breath of experience than most other rulers.
It wasn't likely that hard to guess. Charlie had an idea of what units GK had available and from there he figured such a large magical effect must have been based on a link.

You also forget Charlie has a truly great deal of experience with links as was revealed in the Book 9 updates.


Wish I had access to book 9. :(
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Re: Epilogue 10 - Message to the Tool

Postby SNfinity » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:35 pm

I'm a little worried the that part about the call "feeling weird" indicates that it's actually Charlie in disguise, not Maggie. Except that Charlie gains nothing from GK preparing for attack.
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Re: Dodged a huge bullet

Postby ftl » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:10 pm

Sixty wrote:
Sir Shadow wrote:
raphfrk wrote:I wonder if the dish can disrupt a link. Charlie "guessed" the make-up of the volcano link. I wonder if that was because he saw it form, or just has a better imagination/breath of experience than most other rulers.
It wasn't likely that hard to guess. Charlie had an idea of what units GK had available and from there he figured such a large magical effect must have been based on a link.

You also forget Charlie has a truly great deal of experience with links as was revealed in the Book 9 updates.


Wish I had access to book 9. :(


Yep! You'd win, like, ALL THE QUATLOOS.
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Re: Epilogue 10 - Message to the Tool

Postby Lipkin » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:37 pm

SNfinity wrote:I'm a little worried the that part about the call "feeling weird" indicates that it's actually Charlie in disguise, not Maggie. Except that Charlie gains nothing from GK preparing for attack.

Sure he does. Maggie said prepare for an AIR attack.
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Re: Epilogue 10 - Message to the Tool

Postby Lilwik » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:20 pm

Lipkin wrote:Maggie said prepare for an AIR attack.
I suddenly realize this theory doesn't seem so crazy. It actually seems scarily believable. Stanley could only just barely see Maggie and her voice was distorted. She didn't say anything that Charlie wouldn't know, plus now would be a awfully good time for Charlie to strike at Gobwin Knob with Natural Allies. I'm reading and rereading the epilogue looking for some evidence that this really is Maggie talking, and I can't find anything. Why exactly can't Maggie put Parson on the thinkagram?
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Re: Epilogue 10 - Message to the Tool

Postby Simons Mith » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:43 pm

I've just belatedly noticed that Maggie is calling Stanley 'Lord', not 'Tool'. Is this a continuity error, or am I just about ten strips behind events again? Does seem in character for the way she /speaks/, but it's against Stanley's direct orders, and thinking about it following her Overlord's preferred term of address iss something I'd normally expect her to get right. Or, oh god, a feed-in for a conspiracy, is this really Maggie? I don't buy that myself, because she's providing accurate information; how could Charlie faking this particular call be of benefit to him? But I do know the author is quite sneaky enough to slip something like that in if he wants to...
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Re: Epilogue 10 - Message to the Tool

Postby davesnothere » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:40 pm

ftl wrote:....

Well, I wouldn't say Charlie is screwed. Well, he is, but not because of his position. He's screwed because he has the Perfect Warlord gunning for him.

But his position is fine. He's got an impenetratable fortress way out somewhere. He's getting back into the Royals' good graces via saving Jetstone. As Parson said, he's got intelligence about what... everyone.. is doing. Whereas GK is sort of precarious - their capital is way out in the boonies, they've got no allies, and know nothing about the world outside of what their scouts see. They've also suffered pretty heavy losses in this battle, despite the decryption regaining some of their forces back.
....


You just made me think... Does anyone really know where Charlie's fortress is? Is that the intel that he's afraid that Parosn would get by asking the decrypted Archons? Notice that now that Jack is decrypted, Charlie's contract with him is voided. Perhaps the archons are sworn to a similar NDA which is also be voided. Parson needed to ask the right questions.

What also gets me thinking is why Olive said that they "already know more than you wish" or something like that. Is it possible that Charlie isn't really that far away, but somewhere near Halfaton? Or some other bit whose worth is underestimated.

Dave.
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Re: Epilogue 10 - Message to the Tool

Postby Lilwik » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:28 pm

Simons Mith wrote:I don't buy that myself, because she's providing accurate information; how could Charlie faking this particular call be of benefit to him?
It will benefit Charlie if Charlie plans to attack using marbits or gobwins and Stanley redeploys his defenses out of the tunnels and into the tower in preparation for being attacked by archons. This advice sounds like it will leave Gobwin Knob vulnerable from beneath. I guess that Stanley wouldn't be so foolish as to leave the tunnels wide open, but any redeploy at all would work to Charlie's advantage. Trusting Stanley to deploy the defenses doesn't sound like something Parson would want to do. Are we supposed to think that Parson can't be in on the call because he's busy in a meeting with the Great Minds? That doesn't seem right. After all Parson's talk about Stanley as a huge vulnerability I would think Parson would make defending Gobwin Knob a priority.
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Re: Epilogue 10 - Message to the Tool

Postby Lipkin » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:36 pm

If the side ends ALL of GK's casters are in the Magic Kingdom. The decrypted would disband I believe, leaving Parson terribly exposed, and with no where to go.
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Re: Epilogue 10 - Message to the Tool

Postby Sir Shadow » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:41 pm

I think being in the Magic Kingdom would count as being in a city, so they likely wouldn't disband, just go neutral. Since they have no upkeep, it wouldn't really be an issue.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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