Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lilwik » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:09 am

MonteCristo wrote:Actually it makes me curious if Charlie's protection clause applies to the new Faq, or if Jillian's Faq is considered a different side
Jillian considered it starting a new side when she founded it, even considering giving it a new name. She only called it Faq because of failure of imagination. Even so, it would be hard to imagine how the contract could fail to protect the new Faq as it protected the old one, since it's the same city sites, the side is still called Faq, and it's ruled by the ruler of the original Faq. It looks to me like the new Faq isn't really new at all; Jillian merely chose to delay rebuilding her cities after they were razed.

Looking at it that way, it seems like it was an awfully shameful thing that Jillian did. She was popped as an heir because Faq knew that it was going to be destroyed so that Faq might continue, and then by luck Jillian survived the destruction, giving her the perfect opportunity to do exactly what she was popped to do. She should have gone straight back to Faq. The city sites weren't defended, so she could easily have used her purse to build the largest city she could afford and start Faq again. Doing anything less was a betrayal of her father's memory, but I guess duty doesn't extend past the death of the ruler. At least she eventually did what she was popped to do, but saying that the side isn't really Faq anymore would be adding insult on top of the betrayal. I imagine that if Jillian had renamed the kingdom Ansom then her father's dust would have found a way to blow up her nose and sting her eyes in a mildly uncomfortable way.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby WarFAN » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:51 am

I never get tired to repeat this:

King Banhammer is a galactic-level idiot. I will be very pleased when (if) Rob shows his croaking/uncroaking.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby LTDave » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:10 am

WarFAN wrote:I never get tired to repeat this:

King Banhammer is a galactic-level idiot. I will be very pleased when (if) Rob shows his croaking/uncroaking.


Yeah, I don't agree. He's probably the most relatable character in the comic. I think he's who I'd want to be in Erfworld.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Clementx » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:01 am

Lilwik wrote:Looking at it that way, it seems like it was an awfully shameful thing that Jillian did. She was popped as an heir because Faq knew that it was going to be destroyed so that Faq might continue, and then by luck Jillian survived the destruction, giving her the perfect opportunity to do exactly what she was popped to do. She should have gone straight back to Faq. The city sites weren't defended, so she could easily have used her purse to build the largest city she could afford and start Faq again. Doing anything less was a betrayal of her father's memory, but I guess duty doesn't extend past the death of the ruler.
[/quote]
She was far off on a mercenary contract when FAQ fell. She couldn't even pay for the upkeep of her current units out of her purse. To survive, she had to immediately start earning shmuckers for herself, without the safety net of a treasury. Rushing to FAQ would just end with her disbanding first her entire, "army", then herself as she sat in the ruins.

Ruins she could not protect with Predictamancy/Foolamancy, or even rely on anonymity to protect. Ruins within striking distance of a side strong enough to evade FAQ's protections and end them in a single turn. Returning would have been suicide.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:06 am

Lipkin wrote:He describes it as physical, not mental. Other things pertain to the mind and are not Thinkomancy.
No, he describes it as "headachey" first, clearly an effect of the mind, then states that it bears a physical cost. If there is a physical component to it, it sounds like a textbook psychosomatic response. But the effect is clearly originating in the mind, and as I have stated before this update, the way units talk about contracts and the way they have been carried out sounds exactly like Obedience, a known Natural Thinkamancy.
It's perfectly valid for 2 mancies to govern a process. Take cities for example...building them normally is referred to as Natural Moneymancy...yet Sizemore can influence it also.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lipkin » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:19 am

0beron wrote:
Lipkin wrote:He describes it as physical, not mental. Other things pertain to the mind and are not Thinkomancy.
No, he describes it as "headachey" first, clearly an effect of the mind, then states that it bears a physical cost. If there is a physical component to it, it sounds like a textbook psychosomatic response. But the effect is clearly originating in the mind, and as I have stated before this update, the way units talk about contracts and the way they have been carried out sounds exactly like Obedience, a known Natural Thinkamancy.
It's perfectly valid for 2 mancies to govern a process. Take cities for example...building them normally is referred to as Natural Moneymancy...yet Sizemore can influence it also.

That actually makes a ton of sense. Good comparison. I would assume the actual construction of a city would be dirtamancy, but the ordering of the building, and the cost is moneymancy. So the creation of a contract is Signamancy, and the enforcement is Thinkamancy? So while it's possible to build a city without a Dirtamancer, having one makes it a better city. And you can make a contract without a Signamancer, but having one greatly improves the power, and likely the scope of what it can do.

I hadn't thought about it that way. It works.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lilwik » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:22 am

Clementx wrote:She was far off on a mercenary contract when FAQ fell. She couldn't even pay for the upkeep of her current units out of her purse. To survive, she had to immediately start earning shmuckers for herself, without the safety net of a treasury. Rushing to FAQ would just end with her disbanding first her entire, "army", then herself as she sat in the ruins.
Having cities could only have helped her shmucker situation because it would give her a treasury and income. Faq never prevented her from doing mercenary work before, so there's no reason she should stop just because she rebuilds the cities.

Clementx wrote:Ruins she could not protect with Predictamancy/Foolamancy, or even rely on anonymity to protect.
Marie escaped into the Magic Kingdom. Surely she would have come back to help protect Faq, and there would always be a chance that when Jillian rebuilt Faq's crew of warlords some new casters would pop. There's no reason to expect that anyone would attack Faq again immediately so she would have had time to prepare.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lipkin » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:26 am

Lilwik wrote:
Clementx wrote:She was far off on a mercenary contract when FAQ fell. She couldn't even pay for the upkeep of her current units out of her purse. To survive, she had to immediately start earning shmuckers for herself, without the safety net of a treasury. Rushing to FAQ would just end with her disbanding first her entire, "army", then herself as she sat in the ruins.
Having cities could only have helped her shmucker situation because it would give her a treasury and income. Faq never prevented her from doing mercenary work before, so there's no reason she should stop just because she rebuilds the cities.

Clementx wrote:Ruins she could not protect with Predictamancy/Foolamancy, or even rely on anonymity to protect.
Marie escaped into the Magic Kingdom. Surely she would have come back to help protect Faq, and there would always be a chance that when Jillian rebuilt Faq's crew of warlords some new casters would pop. There's no reason to expect that anyone would attack Faq again immediately so she would have had time to prepare.

I think it's far from a sure thing that Marie would come back. She hasn't yet. And that's assuming she'd be able to predict that Jillian had restarted the side, because Jillian certainly wouldn't have a way to contact her.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:07 am

Lipkin wrote:So the creation of a contract is Signamancy, and the enforcement is Thinkamancy? ...and you can make a contract without a Signamancer, but having one greatly improves the power, and likely the scope of what it can do.
My thought process exactly :)
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Oberon » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:31 am

Ditto wrote:The proper spelling of Banhammer's first line is HERALD, not harald.
Don't bother trying to help. All I accomplished by pointing out the incorrect used of 'forsworn' was to stir up an idiotic debate on the forum fueled by other people who, like the author, also don't know how to use the word correctly. There's a grammar error in this strip as well, but I'ma just let it slide.

Mikalyaran wrote:Step 2.) Parson Spins off new side, re-found FAQ
All the quatloos that this never happens. I won't pretend to know the mind of the author, but if Parson has responsibilities remaining on Erfworld after he fulfills the three, well, four, prophesies he is fated to fulfill, then he won't have much reason to go home. And going home will be his final character growth: To live a full and complete life in Stupidworld, instead of one centered on escapism and fantasy where he only applies himself just enough to get along, except for his gaming efforts. Trashed apartment, pizza stained clothes, weight problem, busted up car, lousy job. And although I don't believe it was mentioned specifically, most likely no friends outside of his gaming group, and certainly no girlfriend. All these are things that Parson could fix, if he only put his intellect to work on something other then designing games. Hell, he could even design and market games and be doing better than just playing them and working at Kinko's.

Or at least, in my opinion, this would be a far better finish to the story than having Parson set himself up as king of all Erfworld. Or even just ruler of one side. Or even just staying on as a unit of Stanley, or any other ruler.

WarFAN wrote:King Banhammer is a galactic-level idiot. I will be very pleased when (if) Rob shows his croaking/uncroaking.
I agree. Full lifetime restrictions on many (a half dozen? A dozen?) people in exchange for the same just on Charlie plus a few thousand (at a guess) shmuckers? Horribly unbalanced. And such a deal with a carnymancer who can just 'break the rules' at a whim? Idiocy!

The archon is even named 'Carnie'... No doubt that is its specialization, but it's also a bit of a nose rub about the stickiness of any contract on Charlie himself.

IP(TSF) #75 wrote:Charlie would pledge funds to rebuild Faq, and swear a lifetime oath never to attack it, or disclose its location, or aid any side in disturbing it.
Clearly, influencing the spawn rate of dwagons along the path of an attacking force who can tame them without a fight is "aid" to that attacking force, even if that attacking force is ignorant of the source of the aid. So if it is ever revealed that Charlie did this, I will expect that the issue of the terms of the contract will be explained in some manner.

IP(TSF) #75 wrote:“Brother Labeler,” said Marie solemnly, “he’s serious about his croft.”

The Signamancer had spent the last hour in a Thinkamancy link-up with Charlie, administering a kind of unbreakable magical contract they were calling a “Deal of a Lifetime.” Marie and Jillian were among the last who had not yet signed.

“Heh,” said Jillian, catching Jack’s eyes. “That’s just what—” Jack gave her a tiny shake of his head. “...I’ve heard said about you, Marie.”
What's up with this exchange? What subject is Jack warning Jillian to stay away from?
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lilwik » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:48 am

Lipkin wrote:I think it's far from a sure thing that Marie would come back. She hasn't yet. And that's assuming she'd be able to predict that Jillian had restarted the side, because Jillian certainly wouldn't have a way to contact her.
Jillian was Marie's ruler at the second fall of Faq and a ruler can send orders to any unit anywhere. It seems that Jillian is no longer Marie's ruler at the start of Book 1, but merely destroying Faq's cities wouldn't cause that to happen as we've seen from the first fall of Faq. I have to conclude that Jillian released Marie during Jillian's time as a barbarian, probably because Jillian wasn't interested in trying to pay Marie's upkeep.

Oberon wrote:There's a grammar error in this strip as well, but I'ma just let it slide.
I'm sure that keeping it to yourself won't accomplish anything good. I didn't notice the grammar error, so it seems like it is tricky and subtle and you did well to spot it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby frei » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:49 am

Prediction: Charlie is not offering her a heroine bud. He's instead going to offer to cure Jillian of her addiction (possibly via a linkup with Jack), and reveal that she will eventually croak (or otherwise be somehow crippled) from it without such a cure.

She will resist, but will assent when Charlie also offers to cure Wanda, who has it even worse than Jillian.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lipkin » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:21 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:I think it's far from a sure thing that Marie would come back. She hasn't yet. And that's assuming she'd be able to predict that Jillian had restarted the side, because Jillian certainly wouldn't have a way to contact her.
Jillian was Marie's ruler at the second fall of Faq and a ruler can send orders to any unit anywhere. It seems that Jillian is no longer Marie's ruler at the start of Book 1, but merely destroying Faq's cities wouldn't cause that to happen as we've seen from the first fall of Faq. I have to conclude that Jillian released Marie during Jillian's time as a barbarian, probably because Jillian wasn't interested in trying to pay Marie's upkeep.

Oberon wrote:There's a grammar error in this strip as well, but I'ma just let it slide.
I'm sure that keeping it to yourself won't accomplish anything good. I didn't notice the grammar error, so it seems like it is tricky and subtle and you did well to spot it.

You can turn barbarian without permission. When the second fall of Faq begins, Banhammer croaks. Marie flees to the Magic Kingdom and turns barbarian before the city falls.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby drachefly » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:22 am

Oberon wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:Step 2.) Parson Spins off new side, re-found FAQ
All the quatloos that this never happens.


I'd permit you to bet beyond the debt limit for that one.

Oberon wrote:
“Heh,” said Jillian, catching Jack’s eyes. “That’s just what—” Jack gave her a tiny shake of his head. “...I’ve heard said about you, Marie.”
What's up with this exchange? What subject is Jack warning Jillian to stay away from?


I think it's just that it would involve talking about what they'd just seen, which would hurt Jack.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lilwik » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:39 am

Lipkin wrote:You can turn barbarian without permission. When the second fall of Faq begins, Banhammer croaks. Marie flees to the Magic Kingdom and turns barbarian before the city falls.
That's speculation, right? I don't recall ever seeing that confirmed, but I can believe it. It would seem to be a gross violation of loyalty and duty, but it wouldn't surprise me if Marie knew back then about the plan for Parson and how Marie and Jillian were going to end up opposing each other, and knowing that might be enough to allow Marie to turn. Marie's duty might even have compelled her to turn, since having Marie supporting Parson might be the best thing for all of Erfworld, and therefore it will benefit Jillian in the long term if Jillian doesn't die.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby GWvsJohn » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:45 am

Oberon wrote:he archon is even named 'Carnie'... No doubt that is its specialization, but it's also a bit of a nose rub about the stickiness of any contract on Charlie himself.


The three archons are Wilson Phillips. I think the name "Carnie" is totally incidental.

Lilwik wrote:Jillian was Marie's ruler at the second fall of Faq and a ruler can send orders to any unit anywhere. It seems that Jillian is no longer Marie's ruler at the start of Book 1, but merely destroying Faq's cities wouldn't cause that to happen as we've seen from the first fall of Faq. I have to conclude that Jillian released Marie during Jillian's time as a barbarian, probably because Jillian wasn't interested in trying to pay Marie's upkeep.


I think you're taking a big jump here. I would imagine Banhammer sent the casters to the MK when things turned, then when he croaked, they turned Barbarian. The first time, Banhammer fled before the city fell and the casters were stacked with him and survived.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Keldaria » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:27 am

Great Update..

And man do I feel stupid! It just clicked that the herobuds were the reason for the pink flower on wanda's decrypted unit's signamancy...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lilwik » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:31 am

GWvsJohn wrote:I think you're taking a big jump here. I would imagine Banhammer sent the casters to the MK when things turned, then when he croaked, they turned Barbarian. The first time, Banhammer fled before the city fell and the casters were stacked with him and survived.
Are you suggesting that they turned just because Banhammer croaked? I'm not sure they would even have a way of knowing that it had happened. Sizemore knew that his Chief Warlord had change in Book 2, Text 31, but only because the bonus changed, and I'm not sure that rulers give bonuses. In this case their Chief Warlord wouldn't have changed, so they might not even know anything had happened.

On the other hand, if they did somehow know that Banhammer had croaked and Jillian was their new ruler, then I can believe that many of them would feel inclined to turn. Most of them don't seem to like Jillian very much. I don't think Marie would turn for that reason, but many of them probably would.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby GWvsJohn » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:23 am

Lilwik wrote:Are you suggesting that they turned just because Banhammer croaked? I'm not sure they would even have a way of knowing that it had happened. Sizemore knew that his Chief Warlord had change in Book 2, Text 31, but only because the bonus changed, and I'm not sure that rulers give bonuses. In this case their Chief Warlord wouldn't have changed, so they might not even know anything had happened.

On the other hand, if they did somehow know that Banhammer had croaked and Jillian was their new ruler, then I can believe that many of them would feel inclined to turn. Most of them don't seem to like Jillian very much. I don't think Marie would turn for that reason, but many of them probably would.


First fall of FAQ, all cities lost, Banhammer lives. Casters are in the field with Banhammer, survive. Casters remain a "FAQ" unit, still has Duty, Loyalty, Obedience to Banhammer. I suspect this is because they were stacked with Banhammer. Jillian is captive and heir, survives. Jillian remains a "FAQ" unit, still has Duty, Loyalty, Obedience to Banhammer. I suspect this is because she is an heir and can survive the fall of a side in the field. Casters remain a "FAQ" unit, still has Duty, Loyalty, Obedience to Banhammer. I suspect this is because they were stacked with Banhammer.

Second fall of FAQ, all cities lost, Banhammer lives. Marie survives, but we don't know for sure where is. Option 1. She is in the field or FAQ. Cities fall, Banhammer croaked, she turns barbarian, proving casters can survive the fall of a side. Unlikely, because I don't see how she gets to the MK. Option 2. She is in FAQ, Banhammer croaks. She flees and goes to the MK before the city falls. She turns Barbarian when the side falls, because she is in the MK. Option 3. She is in FAQ, Banhammer croaks. She flees and goes to the MK before the city falls. She turns Barbarian before the side falls, proving Commanders can go Barbarian without permission from Ruler. Option 4. Banhammer sends her to MK. Cities fall, Banhammer croaked, she turns Barbarian, because she's in the MK. Option 5. Banhammer sends her to MK. Marie turns Barbarian before cities fall, proving Commanders can go Barbarian without permission from Ruler. In all cases Jillian is the field, survives, becomes Barbarian because she is heir.

Of those options, 2 and 3 seems the most plausible by far. I think a unit would "know" when the Ruler changed, but in none of the scenarios does it matter. She either turns Barbarian when the side has no capital, or she chooses to turn.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby multilis » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:59 am

WarFAN wrote:I never get tired to repeat this:

King Banhammer is a galactic-level idiot. I will be very pleased when (if) Rob shows his croaking/uncroaking.

In this case he may be safest to make deal with Charlie. There is only him and Charlie in area, he is weak, Charlie is strong. That also means allowing Charlie to take advantage of Jill to make her sign up for contract. Considering his position of power, Charlie did make a very generous deal.

Unknown why charlie would make such a deal, rather than just eliminate them all. Somehow FAQ is more useful to Charlie alive than dead. Or it is too expensive/risky to croak/conquer a horde of mages to be worth it for him, or too risky they will escape into magic kingdom before he can catch them all.

Or perhaps Charlie is in some ways a nice guy, who would rather not croak.
Last edited by multilis on Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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