Epilogue 15 – Parson and the Great Minds 2

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Re: Epilogue 15 – Parson and the Great Minds 2

Postby Althernai » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:22 am

ftl wrote:Yes, the comic is supposed to eventually return to comic format. I believe it's been said there will be something like 30 epilogue pages, so we're halfway through them? Or something like that? Not sure.

30 is a bit on the high end. From the Kickstarter page:

Well, in addition to the book, if this project is funded then David will also illustrate the epilogues to Erfworld Book 2 "Love is a Battlefield." Each of those pages will have 2 color panels and about 250 words of text. Those will update at least 4 times a week, starting at the end of Book 2, and will run for about 25 pages. We may include a stretch goal to make audio/video treatments of those pages as well.
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Re: Epilogue 15 – Parson and the Great Minds 2

Postby Whispri » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:45 am

wih wrote:
Whispri wrote:The Archon relay thing... could Wanda pull that off with Lilith?

Maybe we'll be seeing Wanda decrypt someone via an Archon at some point.

I dunno about Decryption... but Croakamancy? I could see her being able to blast and Uncroak enemy soldiers through an Archon using her personal power. And nevermind raising the fallen, if anything related to croaking falls under Croakamancy's banner (which appears to be the case with other types of magic), well she could be turning crows and frogs into Units, that could be handy. Even if she was stuck with normal non-giant frogs, they would draw the attention of unled units and if they came in swarms... and swarms of crows? A sudden murder of crows is going to ruin anyone's day. Much easier to arrange if she could do so by proxy.
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Re: Epilogue 15 – Parson and the Great Minds 2

Postby Clementx » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:38 pm

King Mir wrote:There seems to be a bit of a contradiction in Isaac's account. Hey suggests, but does not say outright, that he is not worried about thinkamancers betraying thinkamancy because they are bound by ways preventing them from betraying the group. But earlier he says that Thinkamancers could not betray thinkamancy without detection, implying that they could theoretically betray it and them. So either he's being intentionally deceptive about what binds the thinkamancers, or the means he is describing do not outright prevent betrayal, unlike Charlie's spell. The former is the less profound implication, but I did not think Isaac would risk a lie that Parson could potentially catch to try to get Parson to do something.


The method was implied to be G-string manipulation. Maggie's Epilogue said she convinced the GMTTA to leave Parson's G-string alone, implying that they prefer to do that to allies right off the bat. It is also enough to bend one's Duty to one's Ruler, also according to Maggie. That seems like a pretty solid lock on behavior. In order to betray the mind/AI-hacking the GMTTA do on units, you would first have to get your G-string changed back. This would require a high-level Thinkamancer (implied numerous places that this is out of Charlie's capabilities), and would be visible whenever another Thinkamancer touched your string, which they do often.

Of course, a linked Foolamancer[Signamancer?]-Thinkamancer-Carnymancer could probably alter the impressions one gets from G-strings. Which is the first question Parson would ask, if the GMTTA were smart enough to tell the CW everything.
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Re: Epilogue 15 – Parson and the Great Minds 2

Postby Lilwik » Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:32 pm

Whispri wrote:And nevermind raising the fallen, if anything related to croaking falls under Croakamancy's banner (which appears to be the case with other types of magic), well she could be turning crows and frogs into Units, that could be handy.
What "other types of magic"? Is there really more than one, or are you just talking about Turnamancy? The "croak" in Croakamancy pretty clearly refers to death and there's no real connection between the two senses of "croaking" so I seriously doubt that Croakamancy has any connection to the other one, unless I wanted to believe that the powers of Erfworld magic were governed by words. The only place that I'm aware we've seen anything like that is Turnamancy and the two senses of "turn" which might just be a coincidence since the two senses of "turn" can be connected in other ways than through the word.
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Re: Epilogue 15 – Parson and the Great Minds 2

Postby Lipkin » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:07 pm

Must. Not. Debate. Lilwik. Again!

Such an easy trap to fall for.
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Re: Epilogue 15 – Parson and the Great Minds 2

Postby Whispri » Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:09 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Whispri wrote:And nevermind raising the fallen, if anything related to croaking falls under Croakamancy's banner (which appears to be the case with other types of magic), well she could be turning crows and frogs into Units, that could be handy.
What "other types of magic"? Is there really more than one, or are you just talking about Turnamancy? The "croak" in Croakamancy pretty clearly refers to death and there's no real connection between the two senses of "croaking" so I seriously doubt that Croakamancy has any connection to the other one, unless I wanted to believe that the powers of Erfworld magic were governed by words. The only place that I'm aware we've seen anything like that is Turnamancy and the two senses of "turn" which might just be a coincidence since the two senses of "turn" can be connected in other ways than through the word.

I will remind you that Turnamancy extends to the creation of self propelled vehicles. And that Signamancy covers both the concept of 'signs' relating to appearance and to the signing of contracts.

I will further point out that people must croak before a Croakamancer can turn them into fresh soldiers. Frogs, toads, ravens and crows croak all the time, ergo...
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Re: Epilogue 15 – Parson and the Great Minds 2

Postby Lilwik » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:59 pm

Whispri wrote:I will remind you that Turnamancy extends to the creation of self propelled vehicles.
I don't see how the creation of self-propelled vehicles is relevant to this.

Whispri wrote:And that Signamancy covers both the concept of 'signs' relating to appearance and to the signing of contracts.
Maybe. Labeler was involved in the creating of the contract. We don't know that Signamancy has any part in the actual signing, but even if it is a form of Natural Signamancy that any unit can do that would still be a long way from proving word-based magic because it so easy to connect appearances and contracts. It's all symbolic; the appearance of a person is symbolic of the person's inner nature, at least the way Signamancy is used in Erfworld, and the contract is a symbol of a commitment. Who better to read a contract and know what exactly it represents than a Signamancer?

Whispri wrote:I will further point out that people must croak before a Croakamancer can turn them into fresh soldiers. Frogs, toads, ravens and crows croak all the time, ergo...
But it's entirely different kind of croaking! They are two completely separate meanings of the word that have no practical connection with each other.
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Re: Epilogue 15 – Parson and the Great Minds 2

Postby 0beron » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:45 pm

[Insert standard "shut up Lilwik, you're wrong but clearly don't care regardless of clear contradictory evidence" response here]
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 15 – Parson and the Great Minds 2

Postby Whispri » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:03 pm

Lilwik wrote:I don't see how the creation of self-propelled vehicles is relevant to this.

Maybe. Labeler was involved in the creating of the contract. We don't know that Signamancy has any part in the actual signing, but even if it is a form of Natural Signamancy that any unit can do that would still be a long way from proving word-based magic because it so easy to connect appearances and contracts. It's all symbolic; the appearance of a person is symbolic of the person's inner nature, at least the way Signamancy is used in Erfworld, and the contract is a symbol of a commitment. Who better to read a contract and know what exactly it represents than a Signamancer?

But it's entirely different kind of croaking! They are two completely separate meanings of the word that have no practical connection with each other.

It's a rather simple premise. Turnamancy applies to turning things. Turning prisoners to your own Side and the creation of self-powered vehicles (with wheels that turn on their own) are two examples of Turnamancy. Examples that are utterly unrelated, save by the use of the word 'turn'.

And who better to relate to things that croak than a Croakamancer?

Well, yes. I don't see a problem with that. Even if it were a problem, it's not like crows and ravens aren't associated with death.
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Re: Epilogue 15 – Parson and the Great Minds 2

Postby Lilwik » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:01 pm

Whispri wrote:Turnamancy applies to turning things.
Or perhaps it applies to moving things. Turnamancy is Spookism which is the class that is all about the Motion element. Remember that Dirtamancy isn't actually entirely about dirt. Dirt is what they do most of their work in, but as Stuffamancers Dirtamancers can create other stuff too, so why should Turnamancy be all about turning?

Whispri wrote:Turning prisoners to your own Side
Another way of saying it would be moving the prisoners from one side to another.

Whispri wrote:and the creation of self-powered vehicles (with wheels that turn on their own)
Is Turnamancy required because the vehicles have wheels that turn, or is it because the vehicles move? It's hard to be sure.

Whispri wrote:And who better to relate to things that croak than a Croakamancer?
If you mean "croak" as in the sound, then you're probably talking about controlling animals. I can't see any clear most likely discipline for controlling animals but if I had to choose one I'd be tempted to think it might be Hippiemancy. Perhaps Flower Power can calm the animal or Date-a-mancy can make it your familiar. Perhaps Thinkamancy can be used on animals to control them.

I don't know which discipline would control animals, but I'd put Croakamancy somewhere near Mathamancy, Retconjuration, and the rest of the least likely disciplines.

Whispri wrote:Even if it were a problem, it's not like crows and ravens aren't associated with death.
That's a line of thinking that I can agree with. Perhaps if there really is a strong connection between crows and death in Erfworld then there's a chance that Croakamancers really can control crows. Unfortunately we've never seen any sign of it in the comic that I'm aware of. With all the endless death in the comic I can't think of any time we've seen even one crow.
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Re: Epilogue 15 – Parson and the Great Minds 2

Postby 0beron » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:40 pm

[Points out the fact that Lilwik just casually did a 180 in the middle of his argument and tried to pass it off as proof of his original point.]
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 15 – Parson and the Great Minds 2

Postby drachefly » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:57 pm

Points out that it's not a weakness to acknowledge that the other side may have at least one valid point even if it's not sufficient to establish their case - and that's what Lilwik just did.
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Re: Epilogue 15 – Parson and the Great Minds 2

Postby Oberon » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:27 am

rezby wrote:I can't help but distrust Roger. I don't know why, it seems illogical for it to be so, but I just get the feeling that Roger is indeed the Spy.
There was a bit of an aroma of "The lady doth protest too much" about his anti-carny outburst, wasn't there?

kefkakrazy wrote:[...] I don't know how many people really thought that Charlie wasn't behind the mass Gobwin exodus.
No one who is capable of connecting the dots of Charlies' support of the reborn FAQ under Jillian and the "mysterious" turning of the Western Giants, for certain.

kefkakrazy wrote:If Charlie had access to a major combat discipline, like Shockamancy or Croakamancy, it would be utterly terrifying.
He does, and in more ways than one. First, the Archons can have shockamancy powers. As well as powers from a three other disciplines, although croakamancy isn't one of them. Not only are they knight class units, but they have leadership and dance fighting as well. And it was explicitely stated that they can act as relays, just like your group of spearmen can act as relays for your leader in Master of Magic (which is available for something like $6 from Good Old Games, by the way). Additionally, Charlie hires casters from the MK. And we have the example of Vanessa and (*ptui!*) Kingworld to prove that they are not all just guests in his city while under contract. So field work is an established fact, and there's nothing much keeping Charlie from hiring a croakamancer or shockamancer if he chooses to do so.

RedNoBlue wrote:Could Charlie have linked through to his Spy and *technically* agreed to the NDA at the same as his spy, thus ensuring that he still had access within?
I like the way you think. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, I just appreciate the deviousness of your train of thought.

Tonot wrote:
Spot wrote:Chair-man is a thing.
I hope I am not the only one who thought this extremely witty. :shock:

It was an apt observation, but not particularly witty. Examples abound of hierarchies based on seating arrangements. Chairman is the only one I can think of which is actually named for it, but others have brought up thrones, and there is the 'head of the table', and the entire uniqueness of concept of Arthur's Round Table was to prevent the knights from fighting over seating arrangements based on supposed hierarchy. Hell, sometimes just being allowed to sit in the presence of a powerful person is considered to be a great courtesy by the person in the position of power, which echoes the absence of any spare chairs for the courtesy of guests to the Milquetoast Minds Temple. And who has failed to notice that the plebes sit in cramped cubicles at the workplace, while those in power have spacious offices with fancy desks and swingline staplers?

Lilwik wrote:[...] learning what Charlie knows would be best of all, but I assume that's not a possible Epilogue.
It's not at all impossible. It is a fairly a common writing style to include glimpses of "the mastermind in his fortress" as he contemplates the advancement of his plans. There's no particular reason we couldn't be given such a view into Charlies' world.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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