Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby nargbop » Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:45 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:
Useful for a change, Rusty Trombone designed and directed the implementation of an interlocking array of spells that would draw on some of the magical disciplines they had to work from.
Was anyone else super interested in what this meant?


We know that the Wand of Suckage and several kinds of cloaks can nullify individual blasts of Shockamancy. Maybe there's a strength threshold for these one-off items, because Wanda survived multiple Archon blasts at the beginning.
I propose that when a proper Shockamancer spells up the tower, all of the effects are at full power, and as effective as if they were directed.

I'm worried about this line : "They played some kind of music as they drifted in from above; she didn’t know why. Maybe they were trying not to startle her."
They have Flower Power! In previous episodes, she didn't know that she was bound by Hippiemancy until she was told or tried to strike. These Archons probably have Flower Power through an item, or a unique power of those Archons, or a tweak from Charlie's Carnymancy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Lilwik » Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:41 pm

nargbop wrote:I'm worried about this line : "They played some kind of music as they drifted in from above; she didn’t know why. Maybe they were trying not to startle her."
I'd really like to know what kind of music it is. I feel like that line has some amazing hidden meaning that I am missing.

nargbop wrote:They have Flower Power! In previous episodes, she didn't know that she was bound by Hippiemancy until she was told or tried to strike.
Traditionally music has been Rhyme-o-mancy (discussed in the most detail in Book 0, Episode 18) which can be used to boost anything the Archons happen to be attempting, not just Flower Power. It probably can't be Rhyme-o-mancy without lyrics, but it's not clear whether "some kind of music" includes lyrics.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Lipkin » Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:23 pm

Lilwik wrote:
nargbop wrote:I'm worried about this line : "They played some kind of music as they drifted in from above; she didn’t know why. Maybe they were trying not to startle her."
I'd really like to know what kind of music it is. I feel like that line has some amazing hidden meaning that I am missing.

nargbop wrote:They have Flower Power! In previous episodes, she didn't know that she was bound by Hippiemancy until she was told or tried to strike.
Traditionally music has been Rhyme-o-mancy (discussed in the most detail in Book 0, Episode 18) which can be used to boost anything the Archons happen to be attempting, not just Flower Power. It probably can't be Rhyme-o-mancy without lyrics, but it's not clear whether "some kind of music" includes lyrics.

So you are claiming that the music played by Olive, that kept people from being able to fight (an ability displayed by Janis and described as "simple flower power"), is Rhyme-o-mancy, not flower power?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Lilwik » Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:34 pm

Lipkin wrote:So you are claiming that the music played by Olive, that kept people from being able to fight (an ability displayed by Janis and described as "simple flower power"), is Rhyme-o-mancy, not flower power?
No, I expect that it is Flower Power boosted by Rhyme-o-mancy, much like how Wanda boosted her Croakamancy when uncroaking Tommy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Lipkin » Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:05 pm

If the Parley spell wasn't created by the music, simply boosted by it, Olive wouldn't have needed her chillaxe to cast, and she wouldn't have been screwed by Jack stealing it. I seem to remember it being stated that music is thought to be linked to rhyme-o-mancy, but it's not explicitly so.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Lilwik » Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:37 pm

Lipkin wrote:If the Parley spell wasn't created by the music, simply boosted by it, Olive wouldn't have needed her chillaxe to cast, and she wouldn't have been screwed by Jack stealing it.
I find it hard to believe that Olive couldn't cast. Surely she is still a Florist even without the axe and she could have blocked engagements one unit at a time like we saw Janis do.

Even as I think that I see your point: if Olive could do that, why didn't she do it to Jillian? Stopping Jillian from engaging seems like it would have instantly resolved the situation in Olive's favor, even if all the rest of Faq could still engage. I can only guess that it's because of some subtlety of Flower Power that is beyond our knowledge. Perhaps it's not as easy to cast that sort of spell on a high level warlord as it is to cast it on Jojo, even for a high level Florist. Olive might have needed to actually touch Jillian much like Orwell needed to touch Jillian, and I can certainly understand Olive not wanting to try that.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby twhitt » Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:57 pm

We don't know how spell selection works, do we? Wild speculation: it could be that Olive simply didn't know how to do that, having focused on the more esoteric forms of flower power. It may have been that she didn't know the chill out spell, and only gained use of it through the Chillaxe. There's no strong textual support for this that I can see; it's a complete guess on my part to explain her behavior.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby 0beron » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:03 pm

Casters seem to know what is possible with their disciplines and there doesn't seem to be a limit on their learning, simply the breadth of how they can apply it based on their Novice/Adept/Master designation. For example, Wanda knew in full detail what she would be capable of as a level 1 Croakamancer, and she even knew that as a Novice she couldn't make her Fellows Dance-fight but at Master class she would be able to.

However, the counterpoint is Tisha. In her backstory we learned that Tisha specializes in links and unraveling them. So perhaps practice leads to areas of excellence as a Master class. No doubt Tisha can do everything else a Thinkamancer can, she just is better than average with Links.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Shai_hulud » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:47 pm

0beron wrote:Casters seem to know what is possible with their disciplines and there doesn't seem to be a limit on their learning, simply the breadth of how they can apply it based on their Novice/Adept/Master designation. For example, Wanda knew in full detail what she would be capable of as a level 1 Croakamancer, and she even knew that as a Novice she couldn't make her Fellows Dance-fight but at Master class she would be able to.

Actually I don't think she knew any of this until after her visit to the magic kingdom.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Lamech » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:51 pm

I don't think casters are popped knowing everything possible with their magic. Which is why there is experimentation. I think they know the broad strokes, but not the fine details.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby 0beron » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:00 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Actually I don't think she knew any of this until after her visit to the magic kingdom.
IIRC, she didn't visit the MK until after she had leveled? The point I'm referring to is when she was a level 1 out in the field.
Lamech wrote:I don't think casters are popped knowing everything possible with their magic. Which is why there is experimentation. I think they know the broad strokes, but not the fine details.
I agree, they know the broad concepts that are available to them later. But Wanda knew her exact capacities as a level 1, without having any study. And take Ace for example, he is the only reliable case I can think of where we have 2 casters of the same type that we can compare evenly. He popped with the ability to do both the kind of work Holly did, as well as his own style. That definitely suggests casters learn every "spell" that is available to casters of their level/class power.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Lamech » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:16 pm

0beron wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:Actually I don't think she knew any of this until after her visit to the magic kingdom.
IIRC, she didn't visit the MK until after she had leveled? The point I'm referring to is when she was a level 1 out in the field.
Lamech wrote:I don't think casters are popped knowing everything possible with their magic. Which is why there is experimentation. I think they know the broad strokes, but not the fine details.
I agree, they know the broad concepts that are available to them later. But Wanda knew her exact capacities as a level 1, without having any study. And take Ace for example, he is the only reliable case I can think of where we have 2 casters of the same type that we can compare evenly. He popped with the ability to do both the kind of work Holly did, as well as his own style. That definitely suggests casters learn every "spell" that is available to casters of their level/class power.

I truly doubt he popped with the same abilities as Holly had, seeing as how he popped as a level 1 novice. He was able to mimic, at least superficially, her work but it wasn't identical when he first popped. Maybe it did become identical after a period of leveling and learning, but that isn't popping with the abilities. I agree that there are similarities between casters, both Janice and Olive have battle stopping spells, but the details of the spell were very different.

To wit, I point to when he remade the slain Holly doll (the one the king had stored), it came out looking different. Whatever spell he used it was different than Holly's. That points to there being multiple animate doll spells with subtle differences. We have examples with other casters too, such as the thinkamancer that specializes in links. Or Janice and Olive's comparative competence with anti-engage spells.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby 0beron » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:25 pm

Yeah that's kinda what I meant with Ace...he popped knowing the same BRANCH of spells, as well as all the other things he does. Obviously power and detail increase with level and class, that's why I specifically said "casters learn every "spell" that is available to casters of their level/class power." And I also already mentioned Tisha specializing in Links and my thoughts on that.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Lamech » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:38 pm

0beron wrote:Yeah that's kinda what I meant with Ace...he popped knowing the same BRANCH of spells, as well as all the other things he does. Obviously power and detail increase with level and class, that's why I specifically said "casters learn every "spell" that is available to casters of their level/class power." And I also already mentioned Tisha specializing in Links and my thoughts on that.
See I don't think that's the case. Sure maybe every croakamancer gets some version of "mass animate", "group animate", and "single animate" when they pop, but I think it could very well be possible for one croakamancer to also get "enduring single animate" and another gets "strong single animate", or that such a spell could be developed. I don't have time to find it right now but I think it was mentioned "most" casters pop knowing haboken. That would imply there are some differences in spell selection.

I think its fully possible Ace popped with a better selection of item making spells than Holly, and Holly got a better set of doll animating spells. And its also possible that Holly can make some golems that Ace can't and visa versa, or at least not with sufficient study on Ace's/Holly's part.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Xarx » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:45 pm

Lilwik wrote:Even as I think that I see your point: if Olive could do that, why didn't she do it to Jillian? Stopping Jillian from engaging seems like it would have instantly resolved the situation in Olive's favor, even if all the rest of Faq could still engage.


I'm pretty sure Olive didn't cast a time-out or something similar on Jillian because she was still technically a prisoner. If prisoners were able to cast, she would have done so before that point.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby 0beron » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:00 pm

Lamech wrote:I think it was mentioned "most" casters pop knowing haboken. That would imply there are some differences in spell selection.
Ah now THAT is a concrete reference that helps us, one I had forgotten about but now that you remind me of it you are definitely correct. IIRC it was Wanda who said it, referring to herself. I don't know where it was said, but it definitely was.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Lilwik » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:04 pm

Xarx wrote:I'm pretty sure Olive didn't cast a time-out or something similar on Jillian because she was still technically a prisoner.
I should have made the context of my question more clear. I was actually wondering why Olive didn't cast in Episode 63, before Olive was ever Faq's prisoner. Jillian is even worried that Olive might cast and makes plans about how to prepare for that. Those plans seem to make casting a dangerous tactic for Olive, but when Jillian is blinded it seems like she loses all ability to counter-attack against a spell from Olive.

On the other hand, perhaps Jillian still could have responded if Olive tried to cast. Jillian is the sort of warlord who can take whole cities single-handed. Perhaps if Olive had said "Give me love" (the way Janis said it in Book 2, Page 64) then Jillian would have used the sound to guide her in throwing her sword straight through Olive's chest before the spell could be finished.

0beron wrote:Ah now THAT is a concrete reference that helps us, one I had forgotten about but now that you remind me of it you are definitely correct. IIRC it was Wanda who said it, referring to herself. I don't know where it was said, but it definitely was.
You're thinking of Book 0, Episode 5.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby 0beron » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:11 pm

Thanks Lilwik, quick find!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Arky » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:37 pm

Ah, so this is the price that gets Jillian to bend knee and almost certainly not only sign Charlie's deal but agree to a little extra twist that sees some of her memories erased. I can't see Jillian happily working with Charlie in the future if she still remembered all of this.

I agree that:

- The cure must be total so that Wanda is not dependent on some kind of medicine supply in the future;
- Charlie may maintain a supply of the buds so that he can use them as Olive did, and not because he is still a junkie (although it's clear that Olive must have junkie'd him at some stage)
- The Court's distate of Croakamancy is weird given that it means less need for soldiering by the living. Or at least by the living on the same side as the uncroaked. Living soldiers forced to fight against uncroaked would disagree. It may just be an extension of their dislike of war and powers only useful for war.
- The Court's distate for Wanda, who helped sack their pocket kingdom, is easier to explain. Heck, we saw the disdain Olive Branch had for croakamancy. I can't imagine a real life croakamancer in our world would be widely popular either.
- The ability of the heroine buds to do long lasting, eventually lethal damage over multiple turns could potentially be system-breaking in this world, although I can't see Parson engaging in biological or chemical warfare.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Arky » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:51 pm

MonteCristo wrote:
warriortribble wrote:Must admit, it's strange to see Wanda slowly dying when there's a Healomancer in their hex. It does make you wonder about the limitations of what sounds like an all-purpose healing class. Some possibilities are:

1. Besty is simply not skilled or high enough to help. Definitely possible since she rarely sees combat and Faq is hardly an ideal place to learn medicine.

2. She doesn't want to help Wanda. Considering the contempt the court is showing the Croakamancer, it's possible she doesn't want to go out of her way to research and cure an ailment that's most certainly new to her. She'll heal any combat injuries Wanda gets, but otherwise, she's content in letting Wanda wither away.

3. Kind of related to 1, Healomancy is simply insufficient in repairing the damage done to Wanda. I suppose Wanda is so close to death that she'll need other forms of magic (like life extending Carnymancy) in order for any long term solutions to be attempted on her.


From a Signamancy point of view it is kind of amusing that the healomancer presumably named for the Betty Ford Clinic isn't the source of the cure for Wanda's addiction.

Unless, of course, Charlie's cure has to be administered by a healomancer...
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