Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby cheeseaholic » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:55 pm

ftl wrote:
Newt wrote:Hey everybody,

First post, and I'm going to use it with a tinfoil hat. :mrgreen:
Well, sorta. It adds up to me, and it does answer some questions, timing lines up etc. Here goes.

The man she loves is Charlie. Love is the loyalty which overcomes thinkamancy. She's the leak.


Why would Don King be swearing at Charlie?


Because he thinks Charlie is working with Stanley.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Balerion » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:17 am

I don't think I agree with this gloomy assessment for Transylvito and the coalition. Sure, they lost Spacerock, and Slately is dead; neither is a good thing. But in return for that, they wiped out GK's archons (their main source of dwagon replacement) and a pretty significant chunk of their dwagons as well, not to mention their infantry column and capturing their chief warlord (and killing a few other powerful units, like heavy hobgobwin knights and a few warlords).In return, they lost a ruler who wasn't exactly a major asset to their side (his sons did a lot of the work, lossing Ossomer is probably a bigger blow), their own chief warlord, a few other warlords, and some infantry. Haggar, an uncertain ally at best, also lost a lot of combat power which is a good thing from the coalition's perspective. Certainly not a victory, but in terms of combat power lost a pretty reasonable exchange. I wouldn't really call this a victory for GK either, or more of a pyrrhic one, given the casualties and how little they got to decrypt out of it (they then moved the best of those units into the MK, essentially removing them from play). Plus, their capital (and thus their entire treasury) is now in a pretty vulnerable position. And for all that, the side they came to end the threat of is still up and running, and GK doesn't have the forces in position to finish them off.

Then to look at it just from Transylvito's perspective, Transylvito lost none of their investment (Jillian didn't lose a single unit, and even the bats got out okay), and they now have a powerful airforce running around the enemy's backyard and recouping some of that investment. The problem is, instead of leading and trying to paint the strategic picture, Don is reacting emotionally to Slateley's death, which makes the entire issue emotional rather than an actual evaluation of their strategic position. Don had also wanted to push this forward as an ultimate, overwhelming victory, and when it failed to become one he let Ceasar run the room. Don is in trouble not because of how the battle went, but because he hasn't been the one managing to set the tone on how that outcome is interpreted.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lipkin » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:38 am

Don is trouble because there is a secret conspiracy involving pretty much all Thinkomancers, and his rebellious heir is sleeping with one of them.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Beeskee » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:39 am

Excellent points, but for a good portion of those, Transylvito will have no idea it happened.

Even if Charlie calls them 5 seconds from now and explains it all for free, they won't have a particular reason to believe he's telling the truth.

For example, Transylvito will know GK lost Archons, but to know they lost all of them would require more intel than TV has been shown to have. Same with the dwagons. For changing city capitals, unless that's announced or broadcast somehow, no one will know it.


GK's victory here is definitely pyrrhic, but considering that they were facing "lose all your units, including Wanda, with no chance of survival" - they did pretty good. :)
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lipkin » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:52 am

So far, parson has specialized in pulling Gobwin Knob's ass out of immediate danger, only to leave them in a very serious position. In book 1 he save the side, but it took the Deus Ex Machina of Wanda and the Pliers to rebuild it. Parson helped them recover from King World, then came up with the idea to switch capitals to save the city. But now the capital is exposed, and Parson, all the casters, and the majority of their field force is holed up in the Magic Kingdom.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Balerion » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:27 am

Beeskee wrote:Excellent points, but for a good portion of those, Transylvito will have no idea it happened.

Even if Charlie calls them 5 seconds from now and explains it all for free, they won't have a particular reason to believe he's telling the truth.

For example, Transylvito will know GK lost Archons, but to know they lost all of them would require more intel than TV has been shown to have. Same with the dwagons. For changing city capitals, unless that's announced or broadcast somehow, no one will know it.


GK's victory here is definitely pyrrhic, but considering that they were facing "lose all your units, including Wanda, with no chance of survival" - they did pretty good. :)


I guess I am giving the bats credit for managing to see a lot of the action :). Exactly how much they did see is a fair question. Even without the archons and the capital move being known though, the most likely ones to have missed, there is a fair amount you can sell to paint this as an even fight; and it was Jillian's spell and the presence of her forces that made it an even fight rather than a resounding defeat, which Don should be playing up as proof she worked resoundingly well as an investment.

Lipkin wrote:So far, parson has specialized in pulling Gobwin Knob's ass out of immediate danger, only to leave them in a very serious position. In book 1 he save the side, but it took the Deus Ex Machina of Wanda and the Pliers to rebuild it. Parson helped them recover from King World, then came up with the idea to switch capitals to save the city. But now the capital is exposed, and Parson, all the casters, and the majority of their field force is holed up in the Magic Kingdom.


I still disagree heavily with the decision to move the decrypted force into the MK, but we'll just have to wait and see.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Beeskee » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:41 am

Yeah I agree the bats would have seen everything, or close to it, that was happening in Jetstone. I was thinking of the entire side, though. TV wouldn't have much, if any, intel on the rest of GK, unless they have directly observed it or indirectly been told what was going on. They might know most or all of the Archons in the city were lost, but not ALL of GK's Archons, everywhere. Same with the dwagons, unless someone gets close enough to count them, they won't know how many GK has left. And those are huge differences, "all archons lost in the city" is "okay, neat" but not much else - "all archons lost on the side" is "okay, actionable intelligence, time to step up the spying and foolamancy"

This is all "unless someone told them" of course - but from what we've seen, allies don't seem to share a lot of intel. Don didn't tell Jillian about Ansom being decrypted which he learned from Queen Bea, for example, Charlie had to go tell her. (Edit: I could be mis-remembering the order these events happened in.) Allies do share troops, but even that seems more like "here's a few thousand troops and some warlords, send whatever survives back home and let me know how it goes" :D

I do also agree that Jillian kept this from being a complete massacre for Jetstone. Her stalling tactic, and then Kingworld which she helped enable by ferrying the turnamancer to the battle, is the reason why Jetstone survived this turn at all. Jillian then left because she thought the battle was in the bag. Flying units with no move trapped in a city hex full of archers and casters? Don't let a corpse fall on your head and you'll be fine, right? :D Her chief warlord couldn't even imagine how Jetstone could lose that.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby mortissimus » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:05 am

From what we know GK's position is pretty crap, but is not the RCC2's crappier?

Jetstone has lost its field army, and former capitol with its defenses and garrison. Unaroyal is annihilated. Haggar has lost its field army. So is there anyone but TV and FAQ left of the RCC2 with a decent field army?

Sure, they could throw everything they've got - garrisons and all - at GK now. It might even be correct to do so. Hiowever, they have no way of knowing that, and given history any GK weakness they can spot must look like a trap.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Althernai » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:58 am

Balerion wrote:Then to look at it just from Transylvito's perspective, Transylvito lost none of their investment (Jillian didn't lose a single unit, and even the bats got out okay), and they now have a powerful airforce running around the enemy's backyard and recouping some of that investment.

But that's the thing: FAQ might not have lost any units, but now all of Transylvito knows their "investment" is not as much "theirs" as they thought it was. Jillian has shown beyond the shadow of any doubt that she is not a reliable agent. Transylvito has sacrificed a great deal to build up FAQ (80% of their schmuckers, a few cities and several warlords like Broadway Tony). What they got in return is a formidable force... but one that fled from the battle thus turning a certain victory (as far as they knew, anyway) into a defeat. I agree with you that it is a much more ambiguous defeat than Don believes it to be, but this is small consolation to people who had hoped to end the threat of the Arkenpliers once and for all.

And no, they're not recouping any of that investment. Jillian might be earning money by sacking cities, but she needs all of it and isn't likely to share with Transylvito.

EDIT: Caesar is a little more precise about Transylvito's losses here: they lost 3 cities and 7 warlords. Only 19 warlords are left so those 7 amount to losses of more than 25%.
Last edited by Althernai on Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Mikalyaran » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:10 am

Lor wrote:
GrandReaper wrote:Holy crap, the Don has a nose. And a nice nose. Overall, the Don is really well done. But I do totally agree that Bunny has been Maggie-fied. You win some, you lose some.


Yeah, previous version had her looking younger, less self-assured, perhaps even afraid.
The current -- she looks more certain of things. Angular, and maybe even a bit of a schemer.

Unsure if this is just a difference in the artist, or a subtle bit of Signamancy.

Find out next episode, same Erf-time, same Erf-channel!


She looks to me like someone in an uncomfortable position. As one would expect of someone who is listening to her King rant and tail against her lover.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lamech » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:16 am

TV is doomed. Jillian has abandoned them. Jetstone is in shambles, their forces shattered. Hagar is in shambles there forces shattered. Or worse, there forces are intact. Even though GK might not be striking TV now, Carpool is. They were losing the battle against Carpool. The plan was GK would be defeated and then their allies could bail them out. Their allies lost. No one is coming to save them. They burned their resources to stop GK and save their friends, but now they have no one to save them.

Worst off all they didn't stop GK. They hurt GK true. But guess what? GK is in a stronger position than they were after the volcano. Barring stupidity on GK's part all those gems they mined out are still gems. They can still do dragon harvesting since anti-foolamancy items can presumably be made by Jack+Ace. They have more cities for income. They have more troops. They have an extra caster. To say nothing of the fact that they now can call upon their allies in the MK.

Yeah, GK had a set back. But it wasn't enough. The royals played their best cards after the battle for GK. When the dust settled the royals were shattered, and GK was even stronger.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Althernai » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:49 am

Lamech wrote:TV is doomed. Jillian has abandoned them. Jetstone is in shambles, their forces shattered. Hagar is in shambles there forces shattered. Or worse, there forces are intact. Even though GK might not be striking TV now, Carpool is. They were losing the battle against Carpool. The plan was GK would be defeated and then their allies could bail them out. Their allies lost. No one is coming to save them. They burned their resources to stop GK and save their friends, but now they have no one to save them.

I don't think TV is doomed. They're in bad shape, but it's not too late to turn things around. At the very least, they won't be bleeding any more resources to FAQ. If they focus exclusively on Carpool, they can hold them off long enough for something to change. For example, if Parson goes through with his plan of contacting Thinkamancers, Bunny is the most likely candidate. If she can persuade Caesar to overthrow Don, they can then ally with Gobwin Knob.

Don King does look doomed to me though. I'm not sure if it will be the betrayal I outlined above or something else, but the guy has made too many mistakes and alienated too many followers. Stanley got away with worse, but Don is a man with neither "cognitive limitations" nor an Arkenhammer.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lamech » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:31 am

Althernai wrote:I don't think TV is doomed. They're in bad shape, but it's not too late to turn things around. At the very least, they won't be bleeding any more resources to FAQ. If they focus exclusively on Carpool, they can hold them off long enough for something to change. For example, if Parson goes through with his plan of contacting Thinkamancers, Bunny is the most likely candidate. If she can persuade Caesar to overthrow Don, they can then ally with Gobwin Knob.

Don King does look doomed to me though. I'm not sure if it will be the betrayal I outlined above or something else, but the guy has made too many mistakes and alienated too many followers. Stanley got away with worse, but Don is a man with neither "cognitive limitations" nor an Arkenhammer.

Yeah, if they get bailed out things might change. But Don King's current plan for change is replace the high level expert chief warlord with the newbie heir. You remember how the TV style tactics work? Perhaps I should rephrase: Don King is doomed. Either he gets overthrown (or mind controlled, or whatever). TV is facing collapse against Carpool, and Don wants to make it worse. If Don stops being so foolish someone could save them. GK looks like it might be a good candidate for that, especially if Bunny decides to turn "traitor".

Actually Don King might even make it out alive and with free will. If Carpool doesn't push it, clever political dealings might get them a truce with GK. He'll need to encounter character development, but its possible. Sure they will be crippled, and not a major player, but they've been there before.

However, Don King, as the head of a major side, is doomed. T.V. is basically a non-issue other than as a possible front for Charlie.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Urf » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:26 pm

Don King's only hope is to ally with Goblin Knob.

Also: Are doombats mindless stealth golems?
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Althernai » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:34 pm

Urf wrote:Also: Are doombats mindless stealth golems?

No. They respond to Thinkamancy and we even have a short paragraph from a bat's perspective where it is considering something.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby twhitt » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:38 pm

The archon search for Dwagons may be over right now, but in principle it should work just as well with a Dwagon relay, Jack, and perhaps a screening stack. Sure, it needs an unfortunate amount of troops back at GK proper this way, but it should still work. And Stanley feeling like he's contributing is a big deal.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Mikalyaran » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:42 pm

It occurred to me that TV caster's are good at Rhym-o-mancy. I wonder if they have a Rhyme-o-mancer who taught them? Otherwise it seems to me like Rhyme-o-mancy is a somewhat more easily accessed discipline. Wanda sure picks it up quickly as a means of enhancing her Croakamancy.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby ftl » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:39 pm

It does seem pretty accessible.

I bet in part that's for narrative reasons - because poems are cool and it's fun to make characters have an in-comic reason for writing poetry and singing.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lilwik » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:Otherwise it seems to me like Rhyme-o-mancy is a somewhat more easily accessed discipline. Wanda sure picks it up quickly as a means of enhancing her Croakamancy.
Wanda was probably doing no more sophisticated Rhyme-o-mancy than any ordinary unit could have done, plus getting a bit lucky that the rhymes worked out. We have never met a true Rhyme-o-mancer and I expect if we did then we'd discover what professional Rhyme-o-mancy can do. I expect there's more to it than poetry that sounds nice; there would also be controlling the exact magical effect that the poetry creates.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Not Me » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:23 pm

I know things have changed quite a bit since this happened.
But even if the Charlie issue hadn't arised I would have expected Parson and GK going after FAQ before worrying about TV.
And also, after what Parson found from Jack and what we might learn the next few updates of Book 0, he might be really interested in having a talk with Jillian about Charlie.
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