Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lamech » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:47 pm

I think the difference between a real rhyme-o-mancer and what Wanda did is the difference between Sizemore and a guy with a shovel. A guy with a shovel can dig a whole. A song can make you a bit better. Sizemore level a city. A rhyme-o-mancer can make a whole city a lot better? Something like that.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:48 pm

Wanda presumably is more proficient with Rhymes than other units because she has out-of-discipline casting talent. But based on the fact that even non-casters can engage in Natural Rhyme-o-mancy, it's probably available to all casters if they wish to attempt it's basic level. It does however raise the question of where the line is between Natural Rhyme-o-mancy of making words simply Rhyme for entertainment, and it being an actual spell, if there is such a line. Or put more precisely, what can a full Rhyme-o-mancer do that another caster or even Warlord couldn't?
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lamech » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:15 pm

0beron wrote:Wanda presumably is more proficient with Rhymes than other units because she has out-of-discipline casting talent. But based on the fact that even non-casters can engage in Natural Rhyme-o-mancy, it's probably available to all casters if they wish to attempt it's basic level. It does however raise the question of where the line is between Natural Rhyme-o-mancy of making words simply Rhyme for entertainment, and it being an actual spell, if there is such a line. Or put more precisely, what can a full Rhyme-o-mancer do that another caster or even Warlord couldn't?

Like I said. Anyone can dig a hole. Sizemore does this. I assume Rhyme-o-mancy is similar. Instead of giving Wanda a bonus on her spot check, it gives a massive bonus to your whole side or something.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Jabberwocky » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:10 pm

I'd expect a full on Rhyme-o-Mancer can Rock Out and lead every allied unit in the hex in boosted dance fighting, as well as applying massive buffs or debuffs. Perhaps they can even boost other casters similar to a two person Think-a-mancer link(see Maggie/Sizemore).

I'm also convinced that they can Rock Out hard enough to make someone's head explode. Because such is the power of Rock.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Arky » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:01 pm

Not Me wrote:I know things have changed quite a bit since this happened.
But even if the Charlie issue hadn't arised I would have expected Parson and GK going after FAQ before worrying about TV.
And also, after what Parson found from Jack and what we might learn the next few updates of Book 0, he might be really interested in having a talk with Jillian about Charlie.


So, so, so much time has been put into Jillian as well as into our Protag Onist that it would almost be unimaginable to go through the whole story without Parson interacting directly with Jillian at some point. That point might yet be a long way away, but with what we now know it seems very likely that their interaction will involve Charlie.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby MonteCristo » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:56 pm

Jabberwocky wrote:I'd expect a full on Rhyme-o-Mancer can Rock Out and lead every allied unit in the hex in boosted dance fighting, as well as applying massive buffs or debuffs. Perhaps they can even boost other casters similar to a two person Think-a-mancer link(see Maggie/Sizemore).


I agree, Dance fighting is a mechanic in erfworld and it seems only natural that rhyme-o-mancers would find their calling their. We have seen some examples of warlords and Casters leading dance fights, but their could be a lot of limitations. The transylvito vampires could dance fight, but they couldn't rock out like stanely could... It may be possible that a rhymomancer might be able to lead ANYONE in a dance fight in any style of dance assuming he's got the juice and the level of expertise.

Also in most rpg's a bard's usually act as support by buffing and debuffing. Music does have a way of effecting a person's emotion... give them something heavy, epic and driving and you can excite them into action; Give them something inspiration and you can boost a person's morale; Give them something slow and sweet and you could instead relax them. in a way, you could say the difference between Natural ryhme-o-mancy and the Ryhme-o-mancers is the difference between you and me singing a tune, and an actual musician singing something. The average joe might be able to come up with a catchy tune, but only a true musician could come up with something truly brilliant.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:59 pm

I'd like to see how Don King would respond to the argument that Jetstone had been used as a proxy by Charlie, and that TV should not allow itself to be used the same way. Parson could even ask him to contact Trammenis (by hat) to get Trammenis's view of Charlie's involvement, and Trammenis wouldn't have anything to say that would contradict that framing. Is Carpool between GK and TV? GK would benefit by doing the decryption steamroller on Carpool to get its units, and it could offer some of the cities to TV.


mortissimus wrote:From what we know GK's position is pretty crap, but is not the RCC2's crappier?

Jetstone has lost its field army, and former capitol with its defenses and garrison. Unaroyal is annihilated. Haggar has lost its field army. So is there anyone but TV and FAQ left of the RCC2 with a decent field army?

Sure, they could throw everything they've got - garrisons and all - at GK now. It might even be correct to do so. Hiowever, they have no way of knowing that, and given history any GK weakness they can spot must look like a trap.

I think describing Jetstone and Haggar's field armies as "lost" is an exaggeration. It was implied that Haggar lost less than half of the force that attacked Ansom, given that Jillian expected that someone would need to make excuses to Charlie for them retreating after Sammy was croaked. Meanwhile, Jetstone lost more units, but the number of units they just evacuated from Spacerock is still almost 10 times as many as GK has there now. However, a big difference between those two sides and GK is that they have more territory in the area, including multiple cities, to defend versus each other. From the point of view of a friend of Jetstone, Haggar being in decent shape is not such a positive.

And I agree that nobody in the RCC2 probably knows that GK has so few units and so many schmuckers sitting in Spacerock. On top of that, Haggar is probably in better shape to take Spacerock without making its capital vulnerable to Jetstone than vice versa - not to mention that Trammenis might not feel comfortable attacking Haggar to grab the GK treasury if Haggar showed them "good will" by giving back Spacerock - but Haggar seems to have access to the least intelligence. For Jetstone to turn around and confidently re-take Spacerock would probably involve the participation of Trammenis's air group, which would mean that Jetstone's Ruler would be separated from his capital by a few turns, resulting in all of Jetstone's heavy-hitters sitting in Spacerock or in the field while GK's tasty looted treasury sits in the under-defended Jetstone City.

I think that someone could surmise GK's situation by combining information from TV's bat (most significantly, the fact that most of the units GK gained from almost-taking the garrison were dusted by Jetstone's counterattack and resulting inferno and explosion) with information from the Magic Kingdom (most significantly, the capital switch and the irreversible transfer of most of the forces gained from Jetstone's counterattack). However, only Charlie, Bunny and Don King have all the bat data. Charlie isn't going to tip off the RCC2 when he could grab the GK treasury for himself. Meanwhile, Bunny and Don King don't know what's happened in the Magic Kingdom and so would currently be presuming that the decrypted Jetstone counterattack force is now defending Spacerock.

Also, between the GMTTA being pro-Parson, and Charlie being able to block thinkagrams, there may not be any thinkagrams going out to the RCC2 from Royalists in the MK right now, and Jetstone isn't going to be in a position to send anyone into the MK for a couple of turns.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Tonot » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:22 am

Lamech wrote:
0beron wrote:Wanda presumably is more proficient with Rhymes than other units because she has out-of-discipline casting talent. But based on the fact that even non-casters can engage in Natural Rhyme-o-mancy, it's probably available to all casters if they wish to attempt it's basic level. It does however raise the question of where the line is between Natural Rhyme-o-mancy of making words simply Rhyme for entertainment, and it being an actual spell, if there is such a line. Or put more precisely, what can a full Rhyme-o-mancer do that another caster or even Warlord couldn't?

Like I said. Anyone can dig a hole. Sizemore does this. I assume Rhyme-o-mancy is similar. Instead of giving Wanda a bonus on her spot check, it gives a massive bonus to your whole side or something.



Yep. Imagine a high level Rhyme-o-mancer writing a battle song . . . a Battle Hymn for the Side in fact. It seems reasonable that it would grow in potency the more it was used, like a sympathetic magic does through belief being imbued and then burnished repeatedly. Massive buff for Charisma of the Hymn leader ( everyone is listening intently to him obediently and singing his tune ), and Morale for the singers.
A proper one says all sorts of things about the people singing it, a short circuit to the People they believe themselves to be. In the "real world" a proper Poem of Empire is a schooling in thought, a geas laid on a whole people, as anyone who read the history of the British Empire, or the French Republic knows full well.

And the possibilities for the Hippie mancy use of it seem quite good too. A poem that has skilfully chosen word that "speak" to the listeners, persuasive and emotive. Poetic Propaganda in fact.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lipkin » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:55 am

Songs seem like Date-a-mancy to me. Not all music has words or rhymes, after all.

Arky wrote:
Not Me wrote:I know things have changed quite a bit since this happened.
But even if the Charlie issue hadn't arised I would have expected Parson and GK going after FAQ before worrying about TV.
And also, after what Parson found from Jack and what we might learn the next few updates of Book 0, he might be really interested in having a talk with Jillian about Charlie.


So, so, so much time has been put into Jillian as well as into our Protag Onist that it would almost be unimaginable to go through the whole story without Parson interacting directly with Jillian at some point. That point might yet be a long way away, but with what we now know it seems very likely that their interaction will involve Charlie.

Best plan would be for Caesar as CW of TV to send a force out into the field to meet with Faq on it's raids. When the two forces meet, Caesar offs Don, becoming Ruler. He promotes the highest level warlord in the force to Chief, breaks alliance, and surprise attacks Faq.

If that is the way things went down, I expect it would be because GK would offer Caesar their support in exchange for the return of Ansom. During the fight, Ansom would probably end up having a chance to escape before being told that this was a rescue mission. Instead of escaping, he would see Jillian about to be croaked, and save her, turning Barbarian in the progress. He'll still believe in Toolism as the titanic mandate, but he'll say damn it all in favor of Jillian.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Althernai » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:46 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:And I agree that nobody in the RCC2 probably knows that GK has so few units and so many schmuckers sitting in Spacerock.

They only have few units in Spacerock for one turn. Next Gobwin Knob turn, Wanda can take a dwagon out to the Expository Bridge and decrypt Sammy et al (they won't decay until the RCC2's next turn which comes later). After that, any attack will be up against the usual tidal wave of decryption. The attack would have to be with overwhelming force, particularly since both Wanda and the Chief Warlord are in the hex so the decrypted get large bonuses. On top of that, there are four other casters in the city (not counting Parson since he doesn't cast yet). If anybody is thinking of attacking Spacerock, they should do it now. I can't think of who would do it though -- the only people who are in range are running away.

By the way, all this talk of Jillian has made me curious to see her reaction to Spacerock's fall. Hopefully one of these updates will show the news being delivered to her with Ansom nearby.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby ManaCaster » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:18 am

Althernai wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:And I agree that nobody in the RCC2 probably knows that GK has so few units and so many schmuckers sitting in Spacerock.

They only have few units in Spacerock for one turn. Next Gobwin Knob turn, Wanda can take a dwagon out to the Expository Bridge and decrypt Sammy et al (they won't decay until the RCC2's next turn which comes later). After that, any attack will be up against the usual tidal wave of decryption. The attack would have to be with overwhelming force, particularly since both Wanda and the Chief Warlord are in the hex so the decrypted get large bonuses. On top of that, there are four other casters in the city (not counting Parson since he doesn't cast yet). If anybody is thinking of attacking Spacerock, they should do it now. I can't think of who would do it though -- the only people who are in range are running away.

It has already been a turn since then, so if she did decrypt any corpses outside the city, then it happened off-panel. It might not have, since Gobwin Knob now requires troops to move anywhere about the Magic Kingdom.

I do agree overall though that Spacerock should be pretty hard to hit, since they have access to a whole lot of casters.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Althernai » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:13 am

ManaCaster wrote:It has already been a turn since then, so if she did decrypt any corpses outside the city, then it happened off-panel. It might not have, since Gobwin Knob now requires troops to move anywhere about the Magic Kingdom.

You are right, it has been a turn. I would be surprised if they didn't try for the decrypted -- it's a pretty large and valuable group -- but I guess it's possible. Also, the sound effect at Sammy's death (HSAS) suggests that he'll be back.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby wih » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:25 am

Althernai wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:It has already been a turn since then, so if she did decrypt any corpses outside the city, then it happened off-panel. It might not have, since Gobwin Knob now requires troops to move anywhere about the Magic Kingdom.
Also, the sound effect at Sammy's death (HSAS) suggests that he'll be back.


How so? Is that a reference I didn't understand?
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Althernai » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:48 am

wih wrote:How so? Is that a reference I didn't understand?

Sammy Hagar (the rock musician from Earth, not the Erfworld prince) was part of a group called HSAS. It didn't last very long, but he moved on to other things shortly.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Finwe » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:29 am

Tonot wrote:Yep. Imagine a high level Rhyme-o-mancer writing a battle song . . . a Battle Hymn for the Side in fact. It seems reasonable that it would grow in potency the more it was used, like a sympathetic magic does through belief being imbued and then burnished repeatedly. Massive buff for Charisma of the Hymn leader ( everyone is listening intently to him obediently and singing his tune ), and Morale for the singers.


It would probably look something like this.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Morni » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:52 am

Althernai wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:It has already been a turn since then, so if she did decrypt any corpses outside the city, then it happened off-panel. It might not have, since Gobwin Knob now requires troops to move anywhere about the Magic Kingdom.

You are right, it has been a turn. I would be surprised if they didn't try for the decrypted -- it's a pretty large and valuable group -- but I guess it's possible. Also, the sound effect at Sammy's death (HSAS) suggests that he'll be back.


I don't think it's been a turn yet.

Hagar attack the force of GK during the RCC2 turn which come after GK... and GK attack spacerock during the RCC2 turn.

Epilogue 17 is the first night since then.

Parson wants to try new golem creation when the next turn starts.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:07 am

Think it's because it got written on the wiki that about 3 days have passed. Not sure where that claim comes from exactly though.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Althernai » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:00 pm

Morni wrote:I don't think it's been a turn yet.

Hagar attack the force of GK during the RCC2 turn which come after GK... and GK attack spacerock during the RCC2 turn.

Epilogue 17 is the first night since then.

Parson wants to try new golem creation when the next turn starts.

You may be right. I was speaking based on the wiki here, but it is possible that the wiki is wrong. I assumes that the Lilith and Pierce epilogue is the first night (the text says that the sun is setting) and the subsequent epilogues are the next day, but this doesn't have to be the case. Time is relative in Erfworld: it could be the end of the day for Jetstone (which has moved across multiple hexes) and only an hour or two gone for Parson and company. Hmm...
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby drachefly » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:24 pm

Or it could just be narration going out of order.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby MadZuri » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:31 pm

Judging by the shadow length in all the comics involving Parson's side, I would say they haven't started their next turn yet. The campfire was their first night since the battle. The wiki is clearly wrong.
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