Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:07 am

No one in particular wrote:And I just want to jump back in with my DEFENSE of Betsy, in that she's a Healomancer, used to fixing the body and not the mind or spirit, she thought she was honestly doing good, she wasn't trying to hurt or harm Jillian, and Charlie made no effort to correct or control her. Betsy really, really, REALLY thought she was making Jillian a better person by doing this. Charlie just didn't care.
Regardless of her intention however (which honestly I still find debateable but that's opinion based on how you read it in context, not something that gets clearly stated) what she did is still cruel and unethical. She may have had the best intentions based on her own moral code, but forcibly applying that code to someone else without their understanding, and in fact directly contrary to what their obvious wishes and past tendancies are, is evil.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Finwe » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:47 am

0beron wrote:
No one in particular wrote:And I just want to jump back in with my DEFENSE of Betsy, in that she's a Healomancer, used to fixing the body and not the mind or spirit, she thought she was honestly doing good, she wasn't trying to hurt or harm Jillian, and Charlie made no effort to correct or control her. Betsy really, really, REALLY thought she was making Jillian a better person by doing this. Charlie just didn't care.
Regardless of her intention however (which honestly I still find debateable but that's opinion based on how you read it in context, not something that gets clearly stated) what she did is still cruel and unethical. She may have had the best intentions based on her own moral code, but forcibly applying that code to someone else without their understanding, and in fact directly contrary to what their obvious wishes and past tendancies are, is evil.


Precisely. Jillian's predicament is like checking yourself into drug re-hab, and then being forcefully given a lobotomy because the administrators thought your non-drug related behavior was immoral. Or going in for an appendectomy, and then waking up to find out that the surgeons also performed SRS.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lamech » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:36 am

elddonnemar wrote:
Mrtyuh wrote: While Book 0 may not continue without Xin, I think the original plan was for it to go almost pretty much up until Stanley became Overlord.


Hi, I just want to say that the reason that I'm not doing the main comic is because of time restraints, but since the Book 0 illustrations take much less time than the comic, I will be illustrating them until the end.

So yeah, Book 0 won't continue without me, because it will continue with me. ;)
Yyyyeeeesssss... Your artwork has been amazing!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby ManaCaster » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:13 pm

Lilwik wrote:Jillian's Duty probably isn't a tool of Fate either, though I doubt that Fate is Charlie's enemy. It seems clear to me that the jester probably isn't any natural part of Jillian and some sort of Thinkamancy put him in her head as a tool to push her toward something.

And Thinkamancy is Fate magic. If the theory about Fate being a subtle influence the Titans have over Erfworld is true, than it MUST have some means of subtly influencing Erfworlder's actions.

Lilwik wrote:Why would Fate be Charlie's enemy? People talk about fighting Fate often enough, but that doesn't necessarily make Fate an enemy, and we've seen no evidence that I can think of suggesting that Charlie has anything against Fate. On the contrary, Carnymancy is Fate magic and considering what Jojo did to Sylvia it seems that Fate serves Carnymancy like a tool. It seems like Charlie and Fate ought to be buddies, and even if Charlie has some personal problem with Fate, he seems to be saying that this enemy is also Betsy's enemy and everyone's enemy. I notice that Charlie's direction in life changed suddenly upon attuning to the dish (both Olive and Wanda agreed about that much), which suggests to me that Thinkamancy is what made Charlie aware of the only enemy worth fighting, and in turn that suggests that the only enemy worth fighting is a unit or a group of units who think and are subject to Thinkamancy. Also, I notice that the only actual enemy of Charlie that we know about aside from Gobwin Knob is The Great Minds that Think Alike. It seems like either The Great Minds themselves are the only enemy worth fighting, or else they are trying to stop Charlie from destroying the only enemy worth fighting, which is actually some third thing that is somehow connected to Thinkamancy.

Sure, but Carnymancers aren't the only ones who practice Fate magic. Everyone, including the Predictamancers, suggest that the Titans influence it too. Also, it was said that Wanda had a very big Fate debt that needed to be paid. Maybe Charlie has one of those too, and it wants to be paid by croaking him. Wanda did say that he paid a terrible price to preserve his life, and it would seem that his desires changed at about the time that Olive poisoned him. That would be a good explanation for why Charlie doesn't have a Chief Warlord or any personal casters save himself, even though both are incredibly useful; He is preventing Fate from having any conventional means of getting at him, such as by giving his commanders a personality that is hostile to him.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Ditto » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:35 pm

Lilwik, I think some of your points actually lend themselves to the argument that Charlie is fighting Fate. Fate as an active force, making things happen, that is. Carnymancers like *using* fate, as a tool. A real carnie likes rigging his game to make him win and you lose, but that doesn't mean he is a fan of rigging games per se. Carnies can only function because everyone EXPECTS games to be fair.

What I really want to know is what enemy Charlie was talking about. I see people making a lot of guesses about what the jester represented, but since the jester is a tool of the enemy that really makes a lot of things highly unlikely. The jester may talk like he is Jillian's Duty, but he can't be because there's no way that Jillian's Duty to Faq could be a tool of any enemy of Charlie's. Charlie doesn't care about Faq. Jillian's Duty probably isn't a tool of Fate either, though I doubt that Fate is Charlie's enemy. It seems clear to me that the jester probably isn't any natural part of Jillian and some sort of Thinkamancy put him in her head as a tool to push her toward something.

If Charlie considers the force of Fate to be his enemy, then any unit's Duty is a tool Fate can use to compel that person. That's pretty straightforward. It's not that Jillian's duty specifically is against Charlie, but any unit's Duty can be a threat of Fate chooses to tweak it.

Why would Fate be Charlie's enemy? People talk about fighting Fate often enough, but that doesn't necessarily make Fate an enemy, and we've seen no evidence that I can think of suggesting that Charlie has anything against Fate. On the contrary, Carnymancy is Fate magic and considering what Jojo did to Sylvia it seems that Fate serves Carnymancy like a tool. It seems like Charlie and Fate ought to be buddies, and even if Charlie has some personal problem with Fate, he seems to be saying that this enemy is also Betsy's enemy and everyone's enemy. I notice that Charlie's direction in life changed suddenly upon attuning to the dish (both Olive and Wanda agreed about that much), which suggests to me that Thinkamancy is what made Charlie aware of the only enemy worth fighting, and in turn that suggests that the only enemy worth fighting is a unit or a group of units who think and are subject to Thinkamancy. Also, I notice that the only actual enemy of Charlie that we know about aside from Gobwin Knob is The Great Minds that Think Alike. It seems like either The Great Minds themselves are the only enemy worth fighting, or else they are trying to stop Charlie from destroying the only enemy worth fighting, which is actually some third thing that is somehow connected to Thinkamancy.

Since becoming attuned to the dish, Charlie understands a LOT more about Thinkamancy, including the many flavors it comes in and the idea that Duty is not as straightforward as some make it out to be. He knows that it's one more uninvited fellow riding copilot in the back of his brain, and occasionally it would want to step in and drive, and that's very unacceptable to him. Especially following his experience with flower power addiction, since he understands the insidious nature of its links to every part of his psyche. (It may be that it was merely the flower power using a perfectly Good network of duty, but decides they're both equally nosy and thus equally bad.) It really is quite consistent.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lamech » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:37 pm

On the flower power, and loopholes. Okay, if we saw the contract and it said: "Charlie must destroy everything on flower power he has", I would say: "So he has five back up gardens in the hands of spun off puppet side." But the fact that we have an expert saying "that's ironclad", makes me think he is trustworthy on this. Labeler spotted the loophole. He says the other part is loophole free. I believe him. I would be less annoyed if a High Elf kept a seed packet, than if Charlie kept a High Elf with a seed packet. Indeed, I would not be remotely surprised if Olive had showed off all her cool toys to her fellows in the MK, and one of them had copies of everything. But I would be hella annoyed if Charlie was allowed to hire one of them to replant his garden.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Thoke » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:31 pm

Like many others in this thread, I too think the jester is a manifestation of Duty, and like Ditto mentioned, it might even be a big tool of Fate (but not necessarily).

Just think what part Duty played in case Olive & Charlie. Olive probably did permanent damage to Charlie and only because Olive has a Duty for her side... and thought Charlie wasn't doing any good for it. And Charlie thought Olive as her daughter (as she was), and they might've had a close relationship, or at least Charlie might've cared about Olive due to that. The killing attempt probably had a huge emotional effect on Charlie too.

Removing unit's Duty is removing one of unit's huge constraints in a sense. It's close to total freedom when that's removed: an (commander) unit must find their own purpose in life, instead of it being automatically your side's well-being. I think that's very much demonstrated by Jillian's actions in Book 1 and 2: Being a barbarian queen, leader of a side without a capital, she didn't even think once about going back to the her side's former Capital site and reform her side, but instead something (or rather someone) other drawed her attention: Wanda (& Ansom). No Duty, but Love. Then in book 2, she again doesn't show much interest towards her side, but she is again drawn by Wanda & Ansom. A good page: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-20.png

If Jillian's without Duty, it would seem it causes an amount of disinterest to side's well-being to be formed, but probably not total. They just don't have to be interested, they needn't to.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby IronBear » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:39 pm

This my quirky theory on Carnymancy & Charlie.

Step 1: Caster spends juice and casts spell
Step 2: Player of the Caster starts talking to the Storyteller and tries to make a deal.
-------During these negotiations the Player of the Caster is trying get something to happen that is out of the norm. The Storyteller wants to tell a good story. If the Player of the Caster can provide the ST with a good justification or good trade off that leads to a better story, the ST changes the game as negotiated.
-------Those who have played roleplaying games for a long time we have experienced it. A good ST is willing to make such changes
Step 3: The Storyteller changes his story/plans for the game. This is interperted in Erfworld as a change in Fate or magical effects brought about by a magical spell.

The typical caster is of course only vaguely aware of this negotiation. But as the caster in develops an awareness of what Fate wants he get ever more impressive changes to world in much the same way that a player experienced with his ST knows how him to get perks and custom stuff out of him better.

My hypothesis is that when Charlie coupled with the Arkendish, he basically cut out the middle man and found him self negotiating with the Storyteller directly. Think how disturbing that would be. The Creator and Maintainer of your world is only interested in the story. Individual lives are meanless to him. Their deaths, challenges, and suffering are entertainment for him and his divine allies and create a stage for heroics. And worst of all, this God wants a big flashy climax to his story. He wants to wrap things on and move on to his next Creation. And when he is done, only oblivion awaits you and your world. Would you not do what Charlie is doing? Try to keep the conflict going and try to keep the story interesting for the Creator (Note that Charlie consistently likes novelty though out the series, where as most other characters are disturbed by it). But you know that if this Creator realizes the character has subsumbed the player, he will do . . . something.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby bladestorm » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:42 pm

Althernai wrote:
bladestorm wrote:It helps explain why she thought of herself as Jillian Zamussels instead of Jillian Banhammer. The Banhammer aspect had been removed.

She was Jillian Zamussels from the very first Book 0 entry we encounter her in.

She introduced herself as an alternate name so as not to give away her actual side or identity. When presented before her father, she was known as Banhammer. Those who knew her from Faq knew she was Banhammer. She even formally introduced herself as Banhammer under interrogation. In Book 0 she was Jillian Banhammer masquerading as Jillian Zamussels. In Book 1, she was Jillian Zamussels, no masquerade. Any time she was forced or coerced to give her real name in Book 0, it was as Banhammer. There was no such compulsion throughout Book 1. Even when she was hired by Jetstone, her stats indicated Zamussels. Even her trophy boyfriend referred to her as Commander Zamussels, and he had to have some sort of natural thinkamancy going on to indicate who he was talking to. Hiding your name and stats from an opponent or someone from a different Side is one thing, but it's a little difficult to alter your own identity to a competent leader that is enough in your chain of command to issue you orders. Her love for Ansom made her do all sorts of things for him (breaking Wanda's suggestion, leaping from Gwiffon back, rushing into combat to save him, nearly attacking Caesar for mentioning he was dead, etc), but at no point did it make her mention her real surname was Banhammer.

Either Rob made a huge mistake all throughout Book 1 or at the beginning of Book 0 and never retconjured it, or he was foreshadowing that something was going to happen to Jillian's identity that would cause the switch. I personally do not think Rob would be that sloppy... especially considering how he had to have an entire page redone because of which wall got broken down and how important that would be several panels later.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:45 pm

IronBear wrote:This my quirky theory on Carnymancy & Charlie.
That's a very interesting theory. I actually quite like it in theory. It makes the assumption that behind every caster at least, if not every single unit, there is a "player"...which isn't something we see any hint of. But that issue aside, I still like it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby bladestorm » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:36 pm

No one in particular wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Faq, as a Side, shouldn't have fallen since it had an heir at the time the Ruler croaked. Jillian should have auto-promoted to Ruler and she should have been able to re-found the cities within Faq and rebuilt them. Something about her heir mechanism broke. She remembers Faq units, knows Wanda and Jack by name, so she didn't get a complete mind wipe of her association with Faq. She still retained her Royal status, and the Summer Updates showed us that she still retained her etiquette, though she loathed using it.
Point of order: Faq fell for the same reason Goodminton fell while Wanda was in the field, and Faq fell when Jillian was in the Garden. A side with a Ruler but without cities has fallen. The Ruler and the units in their stack become Barbarians.

When Faq fell for the second time, Jillian DID become the Queen. While far away from home. And then the other two cities fell. So she became a barbarian. With no interest in reclaiming the cities. Jillian was HAPPY as a barbarian, with her freedom and no Duty.

bladestorm wrote:If anything the Jester could represent the concept of family, or the influence family has on personality. Regular units don't have parents and no familial identity, so there'd be no way for Betsy to know what that was, though Charlie definitely would know.
Nooooot quite. I point you to the Sagittari siblings. Mary, Carrie, Terry, Jerry, Perry, Harry, Gary, and Rudolfo... brothers and sisters. Family, without parents.

Counterpoint of Order: Wanda is a caster, and numerous casters outlive their sides by not being in the last city for their side that falls. The Magick Kingdom is full of such individuals. Bad comparison. Stanley would be a more accurate comparison, since they were both warlords and heirs, and both out of the city when the Ruler was croaked. He still retook the city on the next turn, Plaid Tribe and Side still intact. Was that Duty compelling him, since it definitely was not a family bond? And was he instantly promoted to Overlord, or did that not happen until after he retook the city? And just how big was his purse if he was able to support a flight of dragons and some casters through the change of a turn while they had no treasury.

Second counterpoint: Jillian was a Princess all through Book 1. It wasn't until the city of Faq was rebuilt that she became Queen, and her signmancy started changing. There was a transition period there wherein she did everything in her power to not become Queen.

Third counterpoint: The Sagittari siblings, if they were indeed a familial unit and not simply called sibling because they were popped at the same time as a stack of 8, would be an exception, not the general rule. Otherwise, Wanda's inference that Jillian was an heir when the latter mentioned being lectured by her father would have been completely unfounded. That revelation came at the turning point of the relationship between Jillian and Wanda, so I give that considerable more weight on canon than the term used for a stack of archers all popped in the same garrison wall on the same turn.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:44 pm

0beron wrote:
No one in particular wrote:And I just want to jump back in with my DEFENSE of Betsy, in that she's a Healomancer, used to fixing the body and not the mind or spirit, she thought she was honestly doing good, she wasn't trying to hurt or harm Jillian, and Charlie made no effort to correct or control her. Betsy really, really, REALLY thought she was making Jillian a better person by doing this. Charlie just didn't care.
Regardless of her intention however (which honestly I still find debateable but that's opinion based on how you read it in context, not something that gets clearly stated) what she did is still cruel and unethical. She may have had the best intentions based on her own moral code, but forcibly applying that code to someone else without their understanding, and in fact directly contrary to what their obvious wishes and past tendancies are, is evil.


By stupidworld standards perhaps (last time I checked there's at least one country out there willing to enforce their own codes on others even if it means killing hundreds of thousands of innocent bystandders as "collateral damage", while calling themselves champions of good and justice).

But this is Erfworld we're talking about. Where everybody is born hardwired to serve some higher dude. And said dude is allowed to wish you out of existence with a single command if you displease him too much.

Or you can just get overrun by your neighbours if you fall too much into internal conflict. Or die a dog's death to some lucky crit or diplomacy backstabbing.

Betsy has witnessed Jillian's atrittion with her father. That's no good for Jillian, who may be disbanded if she pushes the king too much. That's no good for the side either, that needs her chief warlord with insane luck stat to keep bringing in money. Betsy has plenty of reasons to do whatever she can to reign in the rebel child.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:46 pm

Point of Chill Out:
There are several different verisons of what could be called "fallen" for a side. A Side without cities clearly ceases to exist as a side in the way we know it. However, whether by convention or mechanic, some vestiges remain (FAQ's Court still feels and obey's Banhammer's Natural Thinkamancy.) So in all the examples you are both citing, the side mechanically ended as a Capital Side. However, metaphorically speaking, some of them "didn't fall" because they were quickly reformed by claiming a capital. So basically, both No One and Blade are correct.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby arkerpay » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:49 pm

Betsy is from the Government and she is here to help.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lilwik » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:53 pm

ManaCaster wrote:Also, it was said that Wanda had a very big Fate debt that needed to be paid. Maybe Charlie has one of those too, and it wants to be paid by croaking him. Wanda did say that he paid a terrible price to preserve his life, and it would seem that his desires changed at about the time that Olive poisoned him.
Maybe Fate has Charlie's croaking in the pipeline; we can only guess about that, but that wouldn't explain why Charlie would call it the only enemy worth fighting. Erfworld is full of countless enemies and not everyone is due to be killed by Fate. Some people surely have wonderful Fates and much better enemies to fight. Also, Olive poisoning Charlie was a response to his change, not the cause of it (Book 0, Episode 68), so it seems he discovered his enemy before he paid the terrible price.

IronBear wrote:Step 2: Player of the Caster starts talking to the Storyteller and tries to make a deal.
-------During these negotiations the Player of the Caster is trying get something to happen that is out of the norm. The Storyteller wants to tell a good story. If the Player of the Caster can provide the ST with a good justification or good trade off that leads to a better story, the ST changes the game as negotiated.
That doesn't seem right at all. Just look at Sylvia and the way an arrow that would have killed her was deflected by a random bit of flying debris. That doesn't seem like the sort of thing that the Storyteller would agree to. For the justification to be good it should require that the better story not need to have those sorts of contrived coincidences.

I think you've misread the relationship between the Carnymancer and Fate. It makes so much more sense if the Carnymancer is using his juice to bully Fate around, to force things upon Fate. It seems clear that the arrow was deflected because of Jojo: he rigged Sylvia's Fate far in advance so that certain events would play out in a certain way that would be obviously contrary to good storytelling if we didn't know there was magic at work.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Ditto » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:08 pm

Also, Olive poisoning Charlie was a response to his change, not the cause of it (Book 0, Episode 68), so it seems he discovered his enemy before he paid the terrible price.

The two needn't be wholly unrelated. Charlie attunes, learns about what's going on under the hood in people's brains, and decides he should go up into his tower to muse on the matter more because he doesn't like it very much. Needs some perspective to stare at it better.

Olive climbs up the tower and gives him a push needed to get down from there. Unfortunately, that push ends up being out a window. Charlie learned a lot about forces acting on him in a way he doesn't like, (namely gravity in this metaphor), and he's even more touched in the head for it than he originally was.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby ManaCaster » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:40 pm

You know, overall, Charlie fits the Devil archetype quite well.

* He runs a faction of "angels".
* He opposes the Titans and might even have sympathetic reasons for doing so, but is ultimately still an antagonist.
* He is the Titans' greatest enemy, and yet is ultimately still their pawn, the Adversary Erfworld must overcome to attain Enlightenment and accomplish the Titans' plan.

I am totally expecting Gobwin Knob to acquire Daemons as natural allies at some point.

Lilwik wrote:...but that wouldn't explain why Charlie would call it the only enemy worth fighting. Erfworld is full of countless enemies and not everyone is due to be killed by Fate.

That's because Charlie effectively transcended the standard game when he acquired the Arkendish and destroyed the only 2 sides to threaten him. Aside from Parson & Charlie himself, are you aware of any Erfworlder with any level of creativity? Isaac outright says that Parson is the only person in Erfworld capable of beating him. Parson is Charlie's only worthy mortal adversary. As far as Charlie is concerned, all other mortals are just pawns or nuiscances. It's Fate that actually poses a threat.

That would be a perfect explanation for the absolutely bizzare and apparently detrimental strategy of his side. Charlie doesn't go to war with man. Charlie is fighting forces of nature, the very Erf itself.

Lilwik wrote:Some people surely have wonderful Fates...

I'm sure some people do have wonderful Fates. They probably don't have a massive Fate debt, and they certainly aren't Charlie. We already know Parson is Fated to defeat Charlie after all.

Lilwik wrote:...and much better enemies to fight.

Which seems like a "much better" enemy to fight to you, one's fellow Erfworlders, or the gods themselves?

Lilwik wrote:Also, Olive poisoning Charlie was a response to his change, not the cause of it (Book 0, Episode 68), so it seems he discovered his enemy before he paid the terrible price.

According to Wanda's story, Charlie's original change was for the better. He became a pacifist. The change I am referring to is the fact that he now runs a ruthless mercenary side.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby No one in particular » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:37 pm

bladestorm wrote:Counterpoint of Order: Wanda is a caster, and numerous casters outlive their sides by not being in the last city for their side that falls. The Magick Kingdom is full of such individuals. Bad comparison. Stanley would be a more accurate comparison, since they were both warlords and heirs, and both out of the city when the Ruler was croaked. He still retook the city on the next turn, Plaid Tribe and Side still intact. Was that Duty compelling him, since it definitely was not a family bond? And was he instantly promoted to Overlord, or did that not happen until after he retook the city? And just how big was his purse if he was able to support a flight of dragons and some casters through the change of a turn while they had no treasury.
So far, the only Casters we've heard about who survived the fall of their side did so by being sent through to the Magic Kingdom. We have not heard of any casters who were simply out in the field or anything; every instance has been "the Ruler ordered them through the side at the last moment". Wanda, a Caster & an Heir, was out in the field and the only caster we've seen in that situation. We also have a vivid description of her experiencing the shift from Caster to Ruler to Barbarian, in IPTSF 26.

As for Stanley, there were several differences between him & Jillian.
  • Stanley was close to the Capital when Saline IV was croaked.
    We don't know where Jillian was.
  • Stanley had an interest in reclaiming his Side.
    Jillian never wanted to Rule.
  • When Saline was croaked, there were still cities belonging to GK
    When Jillian got back to Faq, all of the cities were conquered

bladestorm wrote:Second counterpoint: Jillian was a Princess all through Book 1. It wasn't until the city of Faq was rebuilt that she became Queen, and her signmancy started changing. There was a transition period there wherein she did everything in her power to not become Queen.
Again, I point to Wanda's experience IPTSF 26. Unit of side > Ruler for 5 seconds > Barbarian.

bladestorm wrote:Third counterpoint: The Sagittari siblings, if they were indeed a familial unit and not simply called sibling because they were popped at the same time as a stack of 8, would be an exception, not the general rule. Otherwise, Wanda's inference that Jillian was an heir when the latter mentioned being lectured by her father would have been completely unfounded. That revelation came at the turning point of the relationship between Jillian and Wanda, so I give that considerable more weight on canon than the term used for a stack of archers all popped in the same garrison wall on the same turn.
Whether or not they were family isn't really the point. The point is they called themselves that and knew what it meant. They considered themselves more than just fellow units; they were connected.

Most units we've seen the viewpoints of have either been popped singularly, or been shuffled and redeployed and are no longer in touch with the units they popped with, or haven't had reason to think of those they consider family while we're looking at them.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby MonteCristo » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:47 pm

Ah betsy... just a few pages ago i thought her desire to cure all of erfworld and jillian was an endearing trait; friend or foe all deserved to be saved. That is until we see that cure in action and it hits home what such "salvation" would entail. Quite horrifying. What i wonder is if Betsy will ever become aware of how much she truly harmed jillian and understand what Jillian has lost. I also wonder if Jack and wanda will noice the change and how they will react to it.


As for Charlie and fate; i can easily see why he would see fate itself as an enemy. In controls you.
I mean look at how wanda suffered by trying to fight fate. If an erfworlder has a fate then he has little choice but to follow it, since if he does not he WILL suffer for it. Really, having a fate is only good if it's actually something you want. Charlie might have been(presumably) fated to attune to the dish, but he has little more to gain from having a good fate; he has everything he wants... however should fate turn against him, it will attempt to take everything from him. Fate could be to his benefit or to his doom, but given how much he already has, he has no reason to risk following it. This could even be why Charlie has come to value secrets and security so much. If he is fighting fate itself, then he will have to be ready to take on everything fate throws at him. He knows that even if you manage to defy fate, fate will just send something worst to get the job done.

So ya, i could easily see Charlie be an enemy to fate. Ironically, Parson feels like Erfworld itself has been trying to push and influence him and doesn't like it. Really i have found it a bit strange how the narrative seems to have Parson following fate when it seems like he should be defying it... though i guess you could say that the story has only just begun, and there's no telling what twists we will see
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby BakaGrappler » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:19 pm

Well, it's really too bad that Betsy and Olive never really got a chance to bond. They would have become such good buddies.

I think the real lesson we have learned from this is that the scariest people in Erfworld are the ones that are pursuing peace.
Hey, have you read Shadows of the Evergreen? It's my ErfFic. People say it's pretty good over here, and who am I to argue? Check it out, and then tell me what you think of my hack writing.
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