Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lilwik » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:43 pm

MonteCristo wrote:As for Charlie and fate; i can easily see why he would see fate itself as an enemy. In controls you.
Charlie loves control, setting up the no-lose situation, especially if he gets paid to do it. Every time Charlie manipulates events to make a certain outcome inevitable he's making Fate. Perhaps he doesn't like to be controlled himself, but I expect he's more concerned with coming out on top than he is with freedom. He surely doesn't want chaos where everyone just does whatever they want, but isn't that what he would get if he actually won a war against Fate?

MonteCristo wrote:Really, having a fate is only good if it's actually something you want. Charlie might have been(presumably) fated to attune to the dish, but he has little more to gain from having a good fate; he has everything he wants... however should fate turn against him, it will attempt to take everything from him.
Charlie wants shmuckers. If it's his Fate to get shmuckers then it would be madness for him to fight Fate. Maybe he happens to know that his Fate is bad, but if he's really talking about Fate then it sounds like he's saying that everyone should fight their Fate, never give in to being controlled. Not very Charlie-like, in my opinion, and it wouldn't explain why he warned Betsy not to discover the enemy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lamech » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:02 pm

Lilwik wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:As for Charlie and fate; i can easily see why he would see fate itself as an enemy. In controls you.
Charlie loves control, setting up the no-lose situation, especially if he gets paid to do it. Every time Charlie manipulates events to make a certain outcome inevitable he's making Fate. Perhaps he doesn't like to be controlled himself, but I expect he's more concerned with coming out on top than he is with freedom. He surely doesn't want chaos where everyone just does whatever they want, but isn't that what he would get if he actually won a war against Fate?

MonteCristo wrote:Really, having a fate is only good if it's actually something you want. Charlie might have been(presumably) fated to attune to the dish, but he has little more to gain from having a good fate; he has everything he wants... however should fate turn against him, it will attempt to take everything from him.
Charlie wants shmuckers. If it's his Fate to get shmuckers then it would be madness for him to fight Fate. Maybe he happens to know that his Fate is bad, but if he's really talking about Fate then it sounds like he's saying that everyone should fight their Fate, never give in to being controlled. Not very Charlie-like, in my opinion, and it wouldn't explain why he warned Betsy not to discover the enemy.

Trying to fight fate generally ends poorly. Ignorance is bliss. Also his fate is almost certainly not "good" if he wants to rule the world. Fates like "Bob founds a new side" is contrary to that. Or it could be added to at any moment. Nothing sucks like "Charlie dies at the end". The more I think, the more I think Charlie is fighting Fate.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby ManaCaster » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:08 pm

Lilwik wrote:Maybe he happens to know that his Fate is bad...

The Thinkamancers and Parson believe that it's Parson's Fate to defeat him, and from the way Charlie behaves, it would seem that he believes as much as well.

Lilwik wrote:...but if he's really talking about Fate then it sounds like he's saying that everyone should fight their Fate, never give in to being controlled. Not very Charlie-like, in my opinion, and it wouldn't explain why he warned Betsy not to discover the enemy.

He just said that the jester was a tool of the enemy. He wasn't necessarily saying that it's Betsy's enemy, and if it isn't Betsy's enemy, then it would be to Charlie's advantage for her to not understand what she has done.

If it is Charlies Fate to croak, then its probably someone else's Fate to croak him. As such, I would expect Charlie to encourage people to reject Fate. He's already tried to do so to Parson via Jojo after all.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby No one in particular » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:22 pm

BakaGrappler wrote:Well, it's really too bad that Betsy and Olive never really got a chance to bond. They would have become such good buddies.

I think the real lesson we have learned from this is that the scariest people in Erfworld are the ones that are pursuing peace.
Makes you even more worried about Janis & Marie, doesn't it? :D
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lilwik » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:07 am

ManaCaster wrote:He just said that the jester was a tool of the enemy. He wasn't necessarily saying that it's Betsy's enemy, and if it isn't Betsy's enemy, then it would be to Charlie's advantage for her to not understand what she has done.
But it's the only enemy worth fighting, so how could it not be Betsy's enemy too? There are no other enemies, and any enemy that is so great and terrible as to make all others insignificant must surely be an enemy of all Erfworld.

Instead, it makes more sense to assume that Charlie is warning Betsy not to discover the enemy because it's a Thinkamancy-based enemy, the sort of enemy that reaches into people's heads and implants its tools there, the sort of enemy that would know if Betsy knew of its existence because it can read her mind, the sort of enemy that only Charlie can defend himself against thanks to the power of the dish. Perhaps one of the Great Minds is secretly more dangerous then we know and is controlling all the others. Or perhaps the dish itself is the enemy, somehow. When Maggie first explained Thinkamancy to Parson, Parson called Thinkamancy "incredibly scary" in Klog #10, and now we have this thing happening to Jillian. Perhaps even yet we haven't seen how dangerous Thinkamancy can be.

ManaCaster wrote:If it is Charlies Fate to croak, then its probably someone else's Fate to croak him. As such, I would expect Charlie to encourage people to reject Fate. He's already tried to do so to Parson via Jojo after all.
In that case, since Charlie has just passed up a natural opportunity to encourage people to reject Fate you should conclude that he's not trying to fight Fate. Instead of telling Betsy about Fate being the enemy, Charlie has done the opposite and warned her to not even think about it, thereby failing to live up to your expectations.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby ManaCaster » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:44 am

Lilwik wrote:But it's the only enemy worth fighting, so how could it not be Betsy's enemy too? There are no other enemies, and any enemy that is so great and terrible as to make all others insignificant must surely be an enemy of all Erfworld.

Is Betsy in a struggle for her life against the Titans? And if the Titans did want to croak her, would she resist her Fate like Charlie, or accept it like King Banhammer? It is probably "the only enemy worth fighting" for Charlie.

Lilwik wrote:Instead, it makes more sense to assume that Charlie is warning Betsy not to discover the enemy because it's a Thinkamancy-based enemy, the sort of enemy that reaches into people's heads and implants its tools there, the sort of enemy that would know if Betsy knew of its existence because it can read her mind, the sort of enemy that only Charlie can defend himself against thanks to the power of the dish. Perhaps one of the Great Minds is secretly more dangerous then we know and is controlling all the others. Or perhaps the dish itself is the enemy, somehow.

I suppose your dish theory is plausible, but we haven't seen much indication that the Tools have minds of their own, let alone minds hostile to their masters.

I very much doubt any Great Mind has anywhere near the necessary power level. Thinkamancy really does seem to be one of the most useful disciplines, but the disciplines are surely intended to be balanced on some level, and that sort of power would be game breaking. The creativity needed to get around that is not an intrinsic trait to Erfworlders.

The Titans are the only known entities that could reasonably fit this profile.

Lilwik wrote:In that case, since Charlie has just passed up a natural opportunity to encourage people to reject Fate you should conclude that he's not trying to fight Fate. Instead of telling Betsy about Fate being the enemy, Charlie has done the opposite and warned her to not even think about it, thereby failing to live up to your expectations.

And for what reason do you expect Betsy to see things the way Charlie does? Erfworlders view Fate and the Titans quite religiously. "Oh, Fate wants to croak you? That's too bad. Wish I could help, but I'm sure the Titans have their reasons."

And really, Betsy is pretty irrelevant in the scheme of things.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby bladestorm » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:18 am

No one in particular wrote:So far, the only Casters we've heard about who survived the fall of their side did so by being sent through to the Magic Kingdom. We have not heard of any casters who were simply out in the field or anything; every instance has been "the Ruler ordered them through the side at the last moment". Wanda, a Caster & an Heir, was out in the field and the only caster we've seen in that situation. We also have a vivid description of her experiencing the shift from Caster to Ruler to Barbarian, in IPTSF 26.

Stanley had the casters from GK with him when Saline was croaked, which added to the notion that Stanley was the one who orchestrated the overthrow.
Wanda and Jack both survived the croaking of Banhammer. Wanda was in the city of Faq, and Jack was in one of the smaller cities.
Orwell survived the fall of Haffaton while in the same city where his Overlady croaked.


No one in particular wrote:As for Stanley, there were several differences between him & Jillian.
  • Stanley was close to the Capital when Saline IV was croaked.
    We don't know where Jillian was.
  • Stanley had an interest in reclaiming his Side.
    Jillian never wanted to Rule.
  • When Saline was croaked, there were still cities belonging to GK
    When Jillian got back to Faq, all of the cities were conquered
{/quote]
You can also add in there that Stanley had to retake his city, and was supporting multiple casters, while all Jillian had to do was find a Capital site and rebuild it. The City of Gobwin Knob fell, but the Side didn't. Whatever happened with Faq is not typical. When Faq was conquered the first time, the casters were still identified as Faq units, still answered to summons and orders from Banhammer, and still identified with the Side. When Faq fell the second time, something broke, and I think whatever broke happened in this Episode. Marie no longer identifies as a Faq unit, otherwise she could have been recalled from the Magick Kingdom. A caster popped by the Side and an caster hired on someone else's Rand would be better than just the hired caster. It's like Jillian lost her connection to the Side, so when the King croaked, the Side ended despite having an heir.

Just a few Episodes ago, she was considering spinning off her own Side to run things her way. By Book 1, she wanted nothing to do with ruling, or being a part of a Side, or Duty, or anything else associated with Royalty. Something happened.

No one in particular wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Second counterpoint: Jillian was a Princess all through Book 1. It wasn't until the city of Faq was rebuilt that she became Queen, and her signmancy started changing. There was a transition period there wherein she did everything in her power to not become Queen.
Again, I point to Wanda's experience IPTSF 26. Unit of side > Ruler for 5 seconds > Barbarian.
Except most of that description was her new senses that she received from being promoted, at great expense, as one of the last things Overlord Firebaugh did before he was croaked, the Capital Site conquered and the Side ended. There was probably something similar going on when Bea promoted all of her units, sent them into the field, and then ended the Side. We just weren't made aware of that. The only account we have of Jillian when the fall of Faq finally happened at Stanley's hands was her own recounting of it, and nowhere in there did she mention becoming Queen for a split second before becoming Barbarian.

bladestorm wrote:Third counterpoint: The Sagittari siblings, if they were indeed a familial unit and not simply called sibling because they were popped at the same time as a stack of 8, would be an exception, not the general rule. Otherwise, Wanda's inference that Jillian was an heir when the latter mentioned being lectured by her father would have been completely unfounded. That revelation came at the turning point of the relationship between Jillian and Wanda, so I give that considerable more weight on canon than the term used for a stack of archers all popped in the same garrison wall on the same turn.
Whether or not they were family isn't really the point. The point is they called themselves that and knew what it meant. They considered themselves more than just fellow units; they were connected.

Most units we've seen the viewpoints of have either been popped singularly, or been shuffled and redeployed and are no longer in touch with the units they popped with, or haven't had reason to think of those they consider family while we're looking at them.
Actually that IS the point since the previous reference was to a familial connection. Units popped that don't have that identification would not know that connection. If the Jester represents Jillian's familial connection and the influence her Father is able to exert over her, Charlie would be able to recognize it since he popped multiple heirs with that identification -- he would know that connection. Betsy, popped as a singular unit, would not know that connection or identification would be like. It would be a foreign to her as a desire to stick a sword into perfectly healthy bodies. By killing the familial connection, family bond, or whatever it is, Charlie-bugs dissociated Jillian to the point that it broke some other fundamental mechanic of being an heir. That may tie into Duty, but I don't see Charlie's beef with Duty. Charlie's beef with family, I can easily see. Entire ruling classes determined by a parent-child relationship in a system where everyone pops fully formed as an adult -- not such a good idea. Add in the Royal Mandate, the gumps stuck up their boopholes, and several major personal setbacks, and I can definitely understand why Charlie would want to eradicate that notion.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Jabberwocky » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:56 am

As a random tangent..

Now that Parson has Ace, he can finally get the folding chair he was wanting all the way back in the 2009 summer updates.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Tonot » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:36 am

Now that was astonishing. A million quadrillion posts in short order commenting on this update, I would not have guessed.

I ain't reading all that, I get a headache just looking at it all. :P So, sorry if I am just repeating many other posters posts . . .

Charlie is referring to person who wrote the Computer Programme that is Erfworld. He won't come out with it because he is afraid people will just think "HE WANTS TO FIGHT THE HOLY TITANS ! ! ! ".

He wants to fight his maker, because they didn't ask him before they made him.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lilwik » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:35 am

ManaCaster wrote:Is Betsy in a struggle for her life against the Titans? And if the Titans did want to croak her, would she resist her Fate like Charlie, or accept it like King Banhammer? It is probably "the only enemy worth fighting" for Charlie.
I can't believe that it's anything so simple as Charlie being Fated to croak and fighting for his own existence. If he were Fated to croak then naturally as a Carnymancer he would fight that and he'd have the magic to do it effectively, at least for a while, and we have no way of knowing what form that battle might take or if vast amounts of shmuckers might be involved, so that fits quite well, but the way he talks in this episode just doesn't fit. He would have no reason to make grand, sweeping statements about Fate being the only enemy worth fighting. No, Charlie, Fate is just trying to kill you; other people have other enemies and perfectly good reasons to fight them. And he'd have no reason to be mysterious about it with Betsy. He'd either encourage Betsy to fight Fate as part of a plan to derail Fate in one place to help delay it in another, or else he'd just not tell her for the sake of keeping secrets, but there would be no reason to act like Betsy would be harmed by knowing. So Charlie is fighting Fate; how could that be dangerous knowledge to anyone? It's just weird that he would talk this way about his own personal fight with Fate. There has to be more to it.

ManaCaster wrote:I very much doubt any Great Mind has anywhere near the necessary power level. Thinkamancy really does seem to be one of the most useful disciplines, but the disciplines are surely intended to be balanced on some level, and that sort of power would be game breaking. The creativity needed to get around that is not an intrinsic trait to Erfworlders.
We're not talking about the everyday usual sort of enemy. This is the biggest enemy, the ultimate enemy, and that makes it extraordinary. Maybe one of the Great Minds somehow found an exploit that has made Thinkamancy far more powerful than the Titans probably intended and all that power is threatening to destroy Erfworld somehow. Or perhaps Thinkamancy itself has generated some sort of emergent collective intelligence that is threatening everything.

I have no real clue who the enemy might be, but I think we really shouldn't jump to the conclusion that it's Fate with such weak evidence. We don't even know that Charlie is Fated to croak.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lipkin » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:30 am

Issac said Parson was summoned to defeat Charlie. He said that that was the reason the Thinkamancers allowed the Summon Perfect Warlord spell to be created, but other parties had other interests. Parson follows that up by asking how many prophesies he was fulfilling, and Issac said 4. People have taken this to mean that Parson is fated to defeat Charlie. Not confirmed, but implied.

But the real issue is that Charlie has already saved himself from death once. We presume with Carnymancy, because we know that that is within Carnymancy's powers. But when it was used to save Sylvia from dying in a fire, Sylvia ended up imperiled by fire repeatedly from then on, eventually being croaked by it.

Charlie's death was manipulated into being by a Hippymancer, at the hands of a summoned perfect warlord. Judy said she was meant to kill The Wizard, but she purposely let him go. This makes it sound like she knew she was fated to croak Charlie, but decided to fight fate. And then she ended up a junkie.

Now there is a new summoned perfect warlord, being directed by a Hippymancer. Interesting, no?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lilwik » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:18 am

Lipkin wrote:Issac said Parson was summoned to defeat Charlie. He said that that was the reason the Thinkamancers allowed the Summon Perfect Warlord spell to be created, but other parties had other interests. Parson follows that up by asking how many prophesies he was fulfilling, and Issac said 4. People have taken this to mean that Parson is fated to defeat Charlie. Not confirmed, but implied.
It's not really implied either. All that it says is that Parson is Fated to do some stuff, and some people hope that some of the things Parson is Fated to do will help them deal with Charlie. The fact that the Predictamancers are so eager to help Parson says to me that many important outcomes are still in doubt. Marie seemed intent on putting herself between Parson and those who might attack him, but that would be just foolish if Parson is Fated to succeed totally.

Lipkin wrote:But the real issue is that Charlie has already saved himself from death once. We presume with Carnymancy, because we know that that is within Carnymancy's powers. But when it was used to save Sylvia from dying in a fire, Sylvia ended up imperiled by fire repeatedly from then on, eventually being croaked by it.
That's an excellent point. Wanda said exactly: "He survived by means of Carnymancy, buying back his life at a terrible cost." It's so frustrating that she would say something like that without giving even a hint about what the cost was. We really don't know enough about Carnymancy to be inferring things at this point.

Lipkin wrote:Charlie's death was manipulated into being by a Hippymancer, at the hands of a summoned perfect warlord. Judy said she was meant to kill The Wizard, but she purposely let him go. This makes it sound like she knew she was fated to croak Charlie, but decided to fight fate. And then she ended up a junkie.
Judy says that in Episode 51, but not exactly. What she really says is: "I didn’t kill him when we took the city. I let him go." She doesn't say who might have wanted her to kill Charlie, and certainly doesn't say that she was Fated to kill Charlie. She certainly wasn't summoned to kill Charlie; Charlie is the one who ordered Judy summoned according to Episode 66: "By means that are now obscure, The Wizard used some or all of those casters in an attempt to summon a warlord capable of defeating Bell and Blair." I'm sure that Olive wanted Judy to kill Charlie, and it was Olive who seemed to be punishing Judy for failing to kill Charlie. I don't see any evidence that Fate was involved in that at all.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Oberon » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:19 am

[url=http://www.erfworld.com/]“What was it?” asked Betsy. “A tool of what enemy?”

“The only one worth fighting,” said the insects. “Don’t ever find out. Trussst me.”[/url]

This is rather disturbing
Last edited by Oberon on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lipkin » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:01 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Issac said Parson was summoned to defeat Charlie. He said that that was the reason the Thinkamancers allowed the Summon Perfect Warlord spell to be created, but other parties had other interests. Parson follows that up by asking how many prophesies he was fulfilling, and Issac said 4. People have taken this to mean that Parson is fated to defeat Charlie. Not confirmed, but implied.
It's not really implied either. All that it says is that Parson is Fated to do some stuff, and some people hope that some of the things Parson is Fated to do will help them deal with Charlie. The fact that the Predictamancers are so eager to help Parson says to me that many important outcomes are still in doubt. Marie seemed intent on putting herself between Parson and those who might attack him, but that would be just foolish if Parson is Fated to succeed totally.

Lipkin wrote:But the real issue is that Charlie has already saved himself from death once. We presume with Carnymancy, because we know that that is within Carnymancy's powers. But when it was used to save Sylvia from dying in a fire, Sylvia ended up imperiled by fire repeatedly from then on, eventually being croaked by it.
That's an excellent point. Wanda said exactly: "He survived by means of Carnymancy, buying back his life at a terrible cost." It's so frustrating that she would say something like that without giving even a hint about what the cost was. We really don't know enough about Carnymancy to be inferring things at this point.

Lipkin wrote:Charlie's death was manipulated into being by a Hippymancer, at the hands of a summoned perfect warlord. Judy said she was meant to kill The Wizard, but she purposely let him go. This makes it sound like she knew she was fated to croak Charlie, but decided to fight fate. And then she ended up a junkie.
Judy says that in Episode 51, but not exactly. What she really says is: "I didn’t kill him when we took the city. I let him go." She doesn't say who might have wanted her to kill Charlie, and certainly doesn't say that she was Fated to kill Charlie. She certainly wasn't summoned to kill Charlie; Charlie is the one who ordered Judy summoned according to Episode 66: "By means that are now obscure, The Wizard used some or all of those casters in an attempt to summon a warlord capable of defeating Bell and Blair." I'm sure that Olive wanted Judy to kill Charlie, and it was Olive who seemed to be punishing Judy for failing to kill Charlie. I don't see any evidence that Fate was involved in that at all.

You have a habit of going "It doesn't say that!" and shooting down any ideas floated across.

No, it doesn't say these things. But it doesn't rule them out. Parson is asking about why he was brought to Erf, and Issac says the Thinkamancers let the spell be made so he could beat Charlie, and that other groups had other interests that Parson's summoning also served. This leads Parson to ask how many prophesies he is fulfilling (fulfilling, not supposed to be fulfilling. He's the chosen one.), and Issac says 4. Parson did not indicate a change of topic by using the word "and."

"Great. And how many prophesies am I fulfilling?"

That would indicate he was moving onto something unrelated. But he didn't say that. He asked about the reasons he was on Erf, and then asked about the prophesies, making the connection that the reason he was on Erf was because he was fated to do things. This is how context works. Something clearly you have a hard time understanding, judging by how often you cut apart other people's posts and only respond to a couple sentences.


Anyway, yeah, obviously it could have been Olive that wanted Judy to kill Charlie. But Judy didn't say that, and Judy knew Jillian had met Olive, so why wouldn't she say "Olive wanted me to kill Charlie?" But if there was a prediction that said a summoned perfect warlord was fated to defeat Charlie, and Judy choose not to do so, it would make a lot of sense based on everything that we know. Judy went against fate, and her life got terrible. Charlie protected himself against dying, but now a summoned warlord, supported by a Hippymancer, is coming after him again. Clearly the prediction would have been made after Judy's summoning, because why would Charlie summon someone he knew was predicted to defeat him, and why would someone predict something happening that no one had ever even imagined before? Charlie invented the spell. Kinda hard for a predictamancer to say that Charlie would be defeated by a warlord summoned from another word when doing so had never crossed anyone's mind before, let alone known to be possible. My proposed timeline is this.

Charlie helps summon Judy to defeat the witches.
Judy gives Dish to Charlie, Charlie attunes.
Perfect Warlord is predicted to defeat Charlie.
Olive attempts to use Judy to defeat her father.
Judy lets Charlie go.
Olive makes Judy's life hell.
The events of the prequel happen.
Judy leaves Erf.
Olive is croaked.
Charlie thinks he's beaten fate and is safe; builds his business unhindered.
Parson is summoned.
Charlie finds out where Parson comes from.
Charlie shits himself.

The only other character we know that escaped doom for a time was Sylvia, and it was the same doom that did her in as what she escaped. Charlie escaped a summoned warlord being backed by a Hippymancer. Now here is Parson, a summoned warlord, backed by Janis. Is it confirmed fate? No. But the similarities are there to be seen.




tl;dr? Yes, it's implied that Parson (or at least someone who was summoned like Parson was) is fated to defeat Charlie, and Parson has a lot in common with Judy in relation to Charlie.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lilwik » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:23 am

Lipkin wrote:Parson did not indicate a change of topic by using the word "and." "Great. And how many prophesies am I fulfilling?"
All that is doing is picking apart Parson's words to determine their true meaning. You might be right about what Parson meant, but that's irrelevant because Parson doesn't know what he's talking about. He's learning about these prophecies for the first time on that very page. (Book 2, Page 87). If we want to figure out some deeper truth about Parson's prophecies then we should be picking apart Isaac's words.

Lipkin wrote:That would indicate he was moving onto something unrelated. But he didn't say that. He asked about the reasons he was on Erf, and then asked about the prophesies, making the connection that the reason he was on Erf was because he was fated to do things.
I don't see how we can learn anything from that, since Parson has no way of knowing what is connected to what.

Lipkin wrote:Anyway, yeah, obviously it could have been Olive that wanted Judy to kill Charlie. But Judy didn't say that, and Judy knew Jillian had met Olive, so why wouldn't she say "Olive wanted me to kill Charlie?"
Before we find an answer to that question we'd have to know why Judy is telling Jillian any of this. I don't know. Perhaps Judy is just making conversation. If so, there's no sense wondering why she mentions certain details and leaves others out.

Lipkin wrote:The only other character we know that escaped doom for a time was Sylvia, and it was the same doom that did her in as what she escaped. Charlie escaped a summoned warlord being backed by a Hippiemancer. Now here is Parson, a summoned warlord, backed by Janis. Is it confirmed fate? No. But the similarities are there to be seen.
It is a good point that we have a summoned warlord and a Hippiemancer again, but Parson's connection to Janis a bit flimsy, and the poison is missing. Poison is what was directly going to kill Charlie before he worked his Carnymancy, so if your theory is correct we have to expect that Charlie will finally die by poison, or at least be poisoned before being killed by Parson, otherwise it doesn't match Sylvia's pattern. Until we see signs of poisoning Charlie I'm going to be very doubtful of this line of thinking, but if we ever do see some poison then I'll be 100% behind this theory, especially if Janis gets a bigger part in the story in the future.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby spriteless » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:10 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:That would indicate he was moving onto something unrelated. But he didn't say that. He asked about the reasons he was on Erf, and then asked about the prophesies, making the connection that the reason he was on Erf was because he was fated to do things.
I don't see how we can learn anything from that, since Parson has no way of knowing what is connected to what.

Yes he does. Issac says he was summoned because he will do do stuff in the future that benefits the groups that allowed him to be summoned by forging the spell. Parson asks what prophecies he is meant to fulfill. They are related, because prophecy means stuff done in the future you know about. Parson may not know if the prophecies are hopeful planning or iron clad Predictamancy, but he knows they are related. Because prophecy and future plans are related concepts.

The answer is 3 I mean 4. Maybe he was summoned for 3 and the fourth has been predicted since his summoning, or perhaps Issac is more familiar with 3 of them than the last, or perhaps 3 of them are Predictamancy and the 4th is a more mundane plan.

This is metadiscussion on Litwik's style, and meant as advice, not backseat modding or anything: Please say 'I disagree with _' or 'I don't buy into _' or 'I don't see enough info to speculate on _' instead of 'you can't say_' or 'there is no reason to say _.' You will come off as less bossy and cause less arguments. We are brainstorming and coming up with lots of bad ideas as well as good. We are supposed to say a ton of wrong things for every plausible one. That is how brainstorming creates lots of creative ideas.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Denar » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:20 am

I don't see how the jester can be "duty", I see a lot of people are saying that the jester is this. I saw someone made this connection because the jester "is like Banhammer", but that was entirely forum speculation in the past.

The jester does not care about Banhammer OR the side, it only cares about Jillian's self preservation. If she needs to protect the King/Casters to keep her advantage, then that's what it screams at her to do. Have we all forgotten the update where Jack meets her for the first time in the dream world? The jester tells her to go find Olive and her father instead of wasting time and just kill her; when she replies that she won't do that, the jester bascially says "fine! screw the side, screw your dad, run away and start a new side, just don't stay here where you'll be croaked!"


EDIT: ta da
She found the screaming jester in a house of blades.

“Hey! What are you doing! You’ve got a sword and you’re free! Go croak her!” he yelled from a window in a tall turret. He didn’t make the wild gesticulations and acrobatics that she usually saw him perform. His outfit seemed to be hung up in the blades that poked out of every wall.

Jillian knew what he was talking about, but she couldn’t remember the details. She stood in a patch of emeralds and squinted up at him, dazzled by visions of sunshine on steel.

“Tried!” she said. “Can’t! Magic.” She shrugged.

“She’s poisoning them!” shrieked the bald, red-faced jester.

“I can’t stop it!” Jillian stomped her foot and crushed a little patch of emerald grass to shards.

“Then flee! Leave them to perish! Found a new side, far away! Go! Go now, Warlady! Go!”

“Can’t even...walk,” she muttered. Her dream-feet had taken root in the pile of green shards. Heroine buds sprouted around, just out of her reach.

“You don’t just do that, you crazy! You don’t just lose! You’re losing!” The jester pointed accusingly with a wagging finger, but his arm remained pinned to the wall.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:25 am

Denar wrote:I saw someone made this connection because the jester "is like Banhammer", but that was entirely forum speculation in the past....
The jester does not care about Banhammer OR the side, it only cares about Jillian's self preservation.
Wrong and wrong. When the Garden burned, the Banhammer "became" the Jester, that was what Jillian saw as her father's form just like Betsy was the statue, Jack the bird, ect. So there IS in-comic basis for a connection between Banhammer and the Jester. Note however that I say "connection", because it could be something besides her Duty and still draw on her thoughts of Banhammer. As for the Jester's motivations, it urged her not to turn because Banhammer was still alive. Giving up and turning would have saved her life and pain, but it told her not to because her ruler was still alive.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby IronBear » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:26 am

Lilwik wrote:[
IronBear wrote:Step 2: Player of the Caster starts talking to the Storyteller and tries to make a deal.
-------During these negotiations the Player of the Caster is trying get something to happen that is out of the norm. The Storyteller wants to tell a good story. If the Player of the Caster can provide the ST with a good justification or good trade off that leads to a better story, the ST changes the game as negotiated.
That doesn't seem right at all. Just look at Sylvia and the way an arrow that would have killed her was deflected by a random bit of flying debris. That doesn't seem like the sort of thing that the Storyteller would agree to. For the justification to be good it should require that the better story not need to have those sorts of contrived coincidences.

I think you've misread the relationship between the Carnymancer and Fate. It makes so much more sense if the Carnymancer is using his juice to bully Fate around, to force things upon Fate. It seems clear that the arrow was deflected because of Jojo: he rigged Sylvia's Fate far in advance so that certain events would play out in a certain way that would be obviously contrary to good storytelling if we didn't know there was magic at work.



*chuckle* Sylvia is my go to example if anyone asked.

Step 1: Jojo casts Carnymancy
Step 2:
--- Jojo's Player: "Hey ST, I know you are planning to do something wild with those archentools. So, have you considered using Sylvia in that plot?"
--- ST: "I am still fleshing out the plot. But why would I use Sylvia? She is just a stabber. She only has a name because she is your character's love interest."
--- Jojo's Player: "Exactly! Why promote a noname character to starring in that plot? If you use Sylvia then that whole plot will have a lot more meaning to my character."
--- ST: "You just want to save your love interest from death."
--- Jojo's Player: "I won't lie, I do want to save her. But that is the point of this class, I make deals with you. And no mater how you slice it, this makes for a better story."
--- ST: "You make sense, let me sleep on it and I will get back to you in a few days. Until I make my decision I we will put her in incapicitated status. Charge your character for the juice and your character has to stay with her. And I will not intercede for you if Bea's palyer decides to yank Jojo off bedside duty"
(A few turns later)
--- Jojo's Player: "What's your decision?"
--- ST: "I have some great ideas for her, consider it done. But there will be some requirements for this deal. For one she is going to have to take "Daredevil" flaw after this. Her brush with death is going to have a serious impact on her personality. Two, I don't want any complaints about what is coming to you, your side, and her. This deal is going to be a shit storm for your side. Your side is now Fated to fall in my plot. I need a side to be wiped out by my big bad and your side is now it."
--- Jojo's Player: "Hmmm, am I aware of this IC?"
--- ST: "Not really"
--- Jojo's Player: "Then my character would take the deal even though it means my character is going to die. I hate to boop over another player though."
--- ST: "Jojo will likely survive it. Ruler's usally send their casters to the Magic Kingdom if they lose a capital fight, and Uniroyal's fall is going to be very one-sided. As for Bea's player I am going to give her this really awesome Dollamancer concept I came up with. He is an agnsty and disgruntled bad ass. Great back story. And best of all she will likely end up working with Parson in my main plot."
--- Jojo's Player: "Awww, now I am kind of jealous."
--- ST: "No complaints! I have plans for you also. *Insert ST evil laughter*"
Step 3: Jojo finishes his magic, and Sylvia wakes up healed.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby No one in particular » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:32 am

Yeesh. The quotes are getting hard to type around. Lemme see if I can rejigger this discussion a bit.

Re: Wanda, Jack, Orwell
Wanda turned in the middle of Stanley's attack on Faq; she's inappropriate as an example here.
As for Jack and Orwell, I did forget about them. Mea culpa.
They were both singled out as high-value targets for capture & turning, though. Orwell, in particular, was already a prisoner when Judy was croaked. (IPTSF 64, "The King’s response seemed automatic, almost mindless. He touched Orwell’s shoulder, and steel manacles appeared on the fallen Lookamancer’s ankles and wrists."; Judy was croaked on IPTSF 72)

Re: GK not-falling vs Faq Falling
When Saline was croaked, the only one city under attack, the Capital; not every single city on the side.
When Faq was hit by Haffaton, they claimed all three cities of the side.
When Banhammer was croaked, all three cities were sacked in short order. Even though there was an heir in the field, there weren't any existing cities for her to return to. That's what triggered the "Faq has Fallen" action.

As for the Court still banding together & obeying Banhammer, there was nothing about it that wasn't consistent with a bunch of Loyal barbarians.

Re: Ruler Senses
Re: re: Stanley's storytime

You seem to be blending three separate events into one scene with Wanda's experiences. What Wanda felt happened in a very specific order, with very definite spaces between them.
She began to make plans for striking camp, but she had a sudden bizarre feeling in her head, as if she were being lifted upwards.
She clutched the reins and looked around, trying to understand what had happened. She had not be struck by anything. Was there a lurking enemy caster, or--
Her hat rattled. She took it from her head and waved her hand over it. A little green gem appeared inside. With it was a scrap of a note, torn from Father's blotter. It read:
spent treas. to prom. you -- live and avenge! love - F
All at once, completely new senses opened up in her head and she was flooded with information. She could see the distant lights of minds, know the numbers and locations and points of units.
She was Overlord of Goodminton! And... and there were almost no units to count. Fritz was gone. Clay was gone. Delphie was there in the tower, wounded.
In Wanda's head, Delphie's light went out as well. Gone.
Even as she struggled to comprehend, this brand new part of her mind calmly told her the score. The Garrison had seven Goodminton units left. Four.
"No," she said.
One.
She looked up, and had only the barest moment to see it. Except for her stack, every one of her hundreds of troops vanished without so much as a sound. Her mount bucked, then looked frantically side to side at the empty road.
Those new senses she'd been given went dark just as suddenly as they'd come to her, although she could now sense the upkeep of the units she was stacked with. These units were hers alone, now. In a horror of isolation and silence, Lady Wanda Firebaugh understood that she was a barbarian.
The only thing Wanda felt from the promotion to Heir was the feeling of being lifted. The Ruler senses came when her father croaked. The Ruler senses left when the only city Goodminton had left was conquered. They didn't happen simultaneously; they occurred in order, and after actions occurred that prompted them.

As for Stanley mentioning Jillian being Queen, that is almost explicitly mentioned.
LIAB 27 wrote:I mean they had an heir somewhere, but he was out in the field somewhere, out of the battlespace.


Re: Family
Just because you're born an only child, it doesn't mean you don't even have the CONCEPT of "brother".

Ach. I don't think either of us is going to convince the other to change their mind. Can we argue instead on whether Betsy would recognize anything in Jillian's mind without Charlie explaining it to her? That seems to me a better reason for her to not knowing what the Jester was.
"Are you always so pessimistic?"
"Not at all. I saved it for my last battle."
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