Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Denar » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:45 am

0beron wrote:
Denar wrote:I saw someone made this connection because the jester "is like Banhammer", but that was entirely forum speculation in the past....
The jester does not care about Banhammer OR the side, it only cares about Jillian's self preservation.
Wrong and wrong. When the Garden burned, the Banhammer "became" the Jester, that was what Jillian saw as her father's form just like Betsy was the statue, Jack the bird, ect. So there IS in-comic basis for a connection between Banhammer and the Jester. Note however that I say "connection", because it could be something besides her Duty and still draw on her thoughts of Banhammer. As for the Jester's motivations, it urged her not to turn because Banhammer was still alive. Giving up and turning would have saved her life and pain, but it told her not to because her ruler was still alive.


Ummmmm... right. OK.

She saw the jester instead of Banhammer. That was the point. All the other Casters became inversions of themselves... but they were still themselves.

It seems ridiculous that I have to point this out, but we know the jester isn't Banhammer... because Jillian was seeing the jester for a long time before Banhammer and co. arrived at efbaum. Unless you're arguing that Banhammer was dancing in front of Jillian every time she had a dream of the jester? And the jester refers to the king later - "Magic Kingdom! Magic Kingdom! Get the King high! Get yourself high!"

The "connection" -the point- is that the jester is in the position of authority now, not the king, and is bossing around Jillian and Jack (the only other person who can "see" the jester). Hell, jack even says that he thinks the jester is a part of Jillian.

It urged Jillian not to turn because that would be stupid and a trap. Jillian should've known straight away that Banhammer wasn't dead because she didn't become a ruler. So they know Olive was lying to her. Why would she outright lie? Well... Olive states that the first thing that she would do (in her plan of merging FAQ and haffaton, and being the overlady) is disband jillian. Jillian willingly turning herself over to that is stupid.
Last edited by Denar on Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:48 am

No one in particular wrote:Can we argue instead on whether Betsy would recognize anything in Jillian's mind without Charlie explaining it to her? That seems to me a better reason for her to not knowing what the Jester was.
I would guess yes, because Charlie invited her to rip out anything she didn't like, rather than asking her what types of things she was looking for. That phrasing suggests she was perfectly capable of understanding what she saw, presumably because of the link passively granting her understanding of Thinkamancy, and/or seeing the Signamancy Jillian's own mind created to represent her memories/thoughts. So not knowing what the Jester was might be because it was more complex, or was indeed the work of an outside party.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby bladestorm » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:32 am

Denar wrote:
0beron wrote:
Denar wrote:I saw someone made this connection because the jester "is like Banhammer", but that was entirely forum speculation in the past....
The jester does not care about Banhammer OR the side, it only cares about Jillian's self preservation.
Wrong and wrong. When the Garden burned, the Banhammer "became" the Jester, that was what Jillian saw as her father's form just like Betsy was the statue, Jack the bird, ect. So there IS in-comic basis for a connection between Banhammer and the Jester. Note however that I say "connection", because it could be something besides her Duty and still draw on her thoughts of Banhammer. As for the Jester's motivations, it urged her not to turn because Banhammer was still alive. Giving up and turning would have saved her life and pain, but it told her not to because her ruler was still alive.


Ummmmm... right. OK.

She saw the jester instead of Banhammer. That was the point. All the other Casters became inversions of themselves... but they were still themselves.

It seems ridiculous that I have to point this out, but we know the jester isn't Banhammer... because Jillian was seeing the jester for a long time before Banhammer and co. arrived at efbaum. Unless you're arguing that Banhammer was dancing in front of Jillian every time she had a dream of the jester? And the jester refers to the king later - "Magic Kingdom! Magic Kingdom! Get the King high! Get yourself high!"

The "connection" -the point- is that the jester is in the position of authority now, not the king, and is bossing around Jillian and Jack (the only other person who can "see" the jester). Hell, jack even says that he thinks the jester is a part of Jillian.

It urged Jillian not to turn because that would be stupid and a trap. Jillian should've known straight away that Banhammer wasn't dead because she didn't become a ruler. So they know Olive was lying to her. Why would she outright lie? Well... Olive states that the first thing that she would do (in her plan of merging FAQ and haffaton, and being the overlady) is disband jillian. Jillian willingly turning herself over to that is stupid.

This reasoning complies with my concept that the jester represent some sort of familial bond or some sort of influence Banhammer has over Jillian. Even when he is not present, the influence is still there. Once the Jester was removed, she no longer felt tied to Banhammer, or even to the current Faq. By Book 1 she didn't have the duality of Jillian Zamussels in the field and Jillian Banhammer at court. She was set free and could become who she wanted to be. Not the good little princess hoping to convince daddy to let her spin off a new side that she could run her way and defend Faq as an ally, just a barbarian that answered to no one. Psychologically, Jillian Banhammer was removed from her psyche, leaving her to fully become Jillian Zamussels, and that persona filling in all of the blanks left by this surgery. The memory of her father may have remained, but his influence on her was no longer there. She went from being able to perform tea ceremony down to the smallest detail, to identifying forks by which one plucks out eyeballs. Later when she reluctantly becomes Queen, she relearns some of these skills, and forgotten memories drift back to her.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:39 am

Denar wrote:It seems ridiculous that I have to point this out, but we know the jester isn't Banhammer...
No, what is rediculous is that you ignore what I say, and take everything so literally despite my clear statement that I did NOT mean it literally. Nobody is claiming the Jester is literally Banhammer, but nice try on the strawman. People are arguing that there is some analogy/connection/mental basis behind the Jester that uses Banhammer as it's inspiration/source. Whether that's her Duty personified, her familial bond to him, her perception/wish for what he would be like on the inside, etc. the point is that there is comic content that allows for this hypothesis.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Denar » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:48 am

bladestorm wrote:This reasoning complies with my concept that the jester represent some sort of familial bond or some sort of influence Banhammer has over Jillian. Even when he is not present, the influence is still there. Once the Jester was removed, she no longer felt tied to Banhammer, or even to the current Faq. By Book 1 she didn't have the duality of Jillian Zamussels in the field and Jillian Banhammer at court. She was set free and could become who she wanted to be. Not the good little princess hoping to convince daddy to let her spin off a new side that she could run her way and defend Faq as an ally, just a barbarian that answered to no one. Psychologically, Jillian Banhammer was removed from her psyche, leaving her to fully become Jillian Zamussels, and that persona filling in all of the blanks left by this surgery. The memory of her father may have remained, but his influence on her was no longer there. She went from being able to perform tea ceremony down to the smallest detail, to identifying forks by which one plucks out eyeballs. Later when she reluctantly becomes Queen, she relearns some of these skills, and forgotten memories drift back to her.


I don't know, none of that seems based on anything in the comic. No one is addressing the point that the jester told jillian outright to leave the king and everyone to perish, and start her own side. And I can't really remember the part where she is a "good little princess hoping to convince daddy to let her spin off a new side"... I don't think she was ever happy about the tea ceremony either (which I don't think is as complicated as you've made it out to be).

And, supposing any of that is true anyway, why would a "familial bond" to her father be a "Tool of the enemy"? Why would Charlie warn Betsy to never try and find out what it was?

The flowers are supposed to show the inner signamancy based on character's feelings for each other - not their own. That's why Wanda is surprised that Jillian sees her as a beautiful lady, rather than a horrible monster. Because Jillian has feelings for Wanda. Do we think that Jillian thinks of her father as being this angry, crazy, bloodthirsty jester? She is horrified whenever he raises his voice and looks angry, because she explicitly says how he is gentle and reserved.

I think this is really underselling the significance of the jester, by passing it off as being Banhammer.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:53 am

Denar wrote:Why would a "familial bond" to her father be a "Tool of the enemy"? Why would Charlie warn Betsy to never try and find out what it was?
I think this is really underselling the significance of the jester, by passing it off as being Banhammer.
Hmmm, why would Charlie warn against the dangers from one's own family? Maybe because he was nearly killed by his own daughter?
As for underselling, you're failing to appreciate the complexity of the ideas people are proposing, and oversimplying by claiming they think the Jester merely is literally Banhammer.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Denar » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:54 am

0beron wrote:
Denar wrote:It seems ridiculous that I have to point this out, but we know the jester isn't Banhammer...
No, what is rediculous is that you ignore what I say, and take everything so literally despite my clear statement that I did NOT mean it literally. Nobody is claiming the Jester is literally Banhammer, but nice try on the strawman. People are arguing that there is some analogy/connection/mental basis behind the Jester that uses Banhammer as it's inspiration/source. Whether that's her Duty personified, her familial bond to him, her perception/wish for what he would be like on the inside, etc. the point is that there is comic content that allows for this hypothesis.


What did I ignore? I actually just took offense to your tone, "Wrong and wrong" - without addressing my extract from the comic (more than what you provided) so I turned it around. Not so friendly or nice, is it? But I didn't ignore anything

the Banhammer "became" the Jester, that was what Jillian saw as her father's form just like Betsy was the statue, Jack the bird, ect.


those are literally your words mate. Betsy WAS the statue, jack WAS the bird. So... you're saying Banhammer WAS the jester - "JUST LIKE" them. Those are your words.

Or do you mean something else? You're caught in your own rhetoric here. You know you didn't mean that. I know you didn't mean that. But you still said it, because the argument doesn't work otherwise. We all know he ISN'T the jester. At all. You had to say it, otherwise you'd be agreeing with me.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Denar » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:55 am

0beron wrote:
Denar wrote:Why would a "familial bond" to her father be a "Tool of the enemy"? Why would Charlie warn Betsy to never try and find out what it was?
I think this is really underselling the significance of the jester, by passing it off as being Banhammer.
Hmmm, why would Charlie warn against the dangers from one's own family? Maybe because he was nearly killed by his own daughter?
As for underselling, you're failing to appreciate the complexity of the ideas people are proposing, and oversimplying by claiming they think the Jester merely is literally Banhammer.


What
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:11 pm

Denar wrote:Completely ignores my entire point, and once again oversimplifies the entire discussion.
You need to learn how to read things in context and understand the nuances of language required to discuss what is basically psychology and philosphy in the comic. But let me elabroate for you as best I can and address every single point.
  • I Ignored your other points because they were fine, i only bothered addressing with my "wrong and wrong" what you were actually wrong about. You claimed that there was no basis for people stating the "Jester was like Banhammer" when there was in fact a clear example to the contrary. So I corrected you. If you have a problem with it, check your facts before you contradict people.
  • You do ignore things, namely the fact that to the best of my recollection, nobody has ever said the Jester LITERALLY IS Banhammer, yet you keep trying to fight this notion. I have now tried to point this out to you twice, only to have you continue along that line of debate.
  • Last point is a failure to grasp the ideas being discussed. Let me try to rephrase, and see if I can finally put you on the right track of debate. The flower visions are not reality. They mirror reality in some ways, but it is all Jillian's perceptions. She sees Betsy as a statue, Jack as bird, and etc because that is her percpetion of their personalities. The point I was making is that because she sees the Jester instead of the real Banhammer (the same way she sees a statue and bird instead of the real casters), that shows us there is some form of connection between what the Jester is, and how she percieves Banhammer. This fact does nothing to tell us specifically what the Jester is, but it shows us that in Jillian's mind at least, the two are alike (ie, it is "like Banhammer", the statement you initially tried to refute). Is this more direct and clear?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Zeku » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:52 pm

Aggression and willfulness are only necessary to protect oneself against enemies.

If a perfect universe existed, that could not be entered from any external point, and had no destructive concepts or entities, then discarding aggression and willfulness would be ideal. Everyone would be pretty girly and passive, but it would still be a pleasant existence.

On the subject of the jester, I'm inclined to believe that it's an agent of "Fate," but I'd like to throw another remote possibility into the ring:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imp_of_the_Perverse
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Denar » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:17 pm

0beron wrote:
Denar wrote:Completely ignores my entire point, and once again oversimplifies the entire discussion.
You need to learn how to read things in context and understand the nuances of language required to discuss what is basically psychology and philosphy in the comic. But let me elabroate for you as best I can and address every single point.
  • I Ignored your other points because they were fine, i only bothered addressing with my "wrong and wrong" what you were actually wrong about. You claimed that there was no basis for people stating the "Jester was like Banhammer" when there was in fact a clear example to the contrary. So I corrected you. If you have a problem with it, check your facts before you contradict people.
  • You do ignore things, namely the fact that to the best of my recollection, nobody has ever said the Jester LITERALLY IS Banhammer, yet you keep trying to fight this notion. I have now tried to point this out to you twice, only to have you continue along that line of debate.
  • Last point is a failure to grasp the ideas being discussed. Let me try to rephrase, and see if I can finally put you on the right track of debate. The flower visions are not reality. They mirror reality in some ways, but it is all Jillian's perceptions. She sees Betsy as a statue, Jack as bird, and etc because that is her percpetion of their personalities. The point I was making is that because she sees the Jester instead of the real Banhammer (the same way she sees a statue and bird instead of the real casters), that shows us there is some form of connection between what the Jester is, and how she percieves Banhammer. This fact does nothing to tell us specifically what the Jester is, but it shows us that in Jillian's mind at least, the two are alike (ie, it is "like Banhammer", the statement you initially tried to refute). Is this more direct and clear?


Is this all a joke? Firstly, that aggressive line you've quoted as ME... those are your words, I never said that.

Secondly, all I've said is that I don't think the Jester is Jillian's sense of Duty. That is literally my first post. I said that I don't think there is a connection between the Jester and her father. In fact, the only person who has been talking about the jester LITERALLY being Banhammer was you... I'll repost my first post here

I don't see how the jester can be "duty", I see a lot of people are saying that the jester is this. I saw someone made this connection because the jester "is like Banhammer", but that was entirely forum speculation in the past.


then YOU said

, the Banhammer "became" the Jester, that was what Jillian saw as her father's form just like Betsy was the statue, Jack the bird, ect.


YOU.
YOU literally said "the Banhammer became the Jester".

Regardless of whatever you actually meant, that was you.

THEN

I said that it was more significant that the jester replaced her father. It is NOT the same as Betsy being represented as a statue - that statue WAS betsy. It is NOT the same as jack being a bird. That bird WAS jack.

YOU said that Banhammer becoming the Jester was "JUST LIKE" those characters "becoming" what jillian perceived them to be. By disagreeing, YOU are arguing that Banhammer was the Jester - that those were his words when he was screaming for Jillian and Jack to chase after Olive.

AND what I did, was use the in comic examples to show that the Jester does NOT represent her father, or the voice of her father, or Duty to her father and side... because it tells her to make decisions that are NOT good for FAQ, to make decisions that are NOT those of her father: it tells her to leave them all to perish and start her own side (screwing over FAQ), and it also tells her to just lop off Judy's head at the first opportunity (the whole "Cut off her arms, her head! Why are you even talking to her!") - which something that could NEVER be attributed to her father. The jester is visiting her before Banhammer even shows up, and she actually thinks he looks really impressive on the megagwiffon/gwiffon/whatever, and is THEN disappointed that he doesn't take any action. There is nothing in the jester that is attributable to Banhammer.

The jester is NOT her duty, NOT her father.

BUT if you want to ignore all this, and continue to think that the only flaws in your arguments must be ones that I've MADE UP, then please continue.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby WarFAN » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:25 pm

Lilwik wrote:Instead, it makes more sense to assume that Charlie is warning Betsy not to discover the enemy because it's a Thinkamancy-based enemy, the sort of enemy that reaches into people's heads and implants its tools there, the sort of enemy that would know if Betsy knew of its existence because it can read her mind, the sort of enemy that only Charlie can defend himself against thanks to the power of the dish. Perhaps one of the Great Minds is secretly more dangerous then we know and is controlling all the others. Or perhaps the dish itself is the enemy, somehow. When Maggie first explained Thinkamancy to Parson, Parson called Thinkamancy "incredibly scary" in Klog #10, and now we have this thing happening to Jillian. Perhaps even yet we haven't seen how dangerous Thinkamancy can be.


I do really like your point here. We know very little about TGMtTA, and we totally ignore *when* and *why* they were founded as a group. If they are a group of Thinkamancers devoted to fight against the influence of the Arkendish (which is itself a Tool of the Titans) in Erfworld maybe they exist well before Charlie's attunement and theirs current fight against Charlie is only the last chapter of a very long secret war, maybe one predating Bell and Blair...

By the way, this explains why several Great Minds are afraid about Parson attuning to the Arkendish and being a force worst than Charlie...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:33 pm

Apologies Denar, when debates get going and huge walls of text build up, we sometimes "quote" each other with a (sometimes opinionated) paraphrasing of that the other person said, however in that case we usually use brackets, which I failed to do. Basically I was boiling down your post to it's core theme of [ignoring my point and oversimplifying], I wasn't attributing that sentence to you.

As for the actual topic of debate however; I rest my case, you cannot grasp what is being discussed here.You are repeatedly misunderstanding what I say despite my clear explanations. Perhaps English isn't your first language, so my apologies if that is the case, but for all our sakes just stop, this is getting rediculous.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Oberon » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:49 pm

Mwahahahahahahaha!!!!

That's all I have to say.

I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries. Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Ditto » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:07 pm

Denar - The jester is still consistent with Duty. In the passage you quoted from Jillian's flower dream, the Jester said 'Go save your people!' Jillian said 'I *can't*'. Not 'I don't want to, give me another way to spend my time.'. She said 'I *can't*'. Taking this as granted, the Jester gives her Plan B, which is the next best way to preserve her side - the function of Duty. If you cannot preserve your side through any other means, then it is logical (as an Heir) to escape yourself and let the side live on in you. Jack said it is a part of her, which, y'know, it is. Each person (or at least, each commander-level unit) has their own Duty guiding them toward the good of the side.

Zeroberon - Your first response to Denar was definitely harsh and confusing. 'Wrong and wrong. The Jester became Banhammer' is hard to misread, and if you intended it to mean something different than what it plainly says at face value, that went over a lot of people's heads. A few people DID claim the jester was literally Banhammer at one point (earlier in this thread, even), and it appeared from that sentence that you were one of them.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Denar » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:21 pm

0beron wrote:Apologies Denar, when debates get going and huge walls of text build up, we sometimes "quote" each other with a (sometimes opinionated) paraphrasing of that the other person said, however in that case we usually use brackets, which I failed to do. Basically I was boiling down your post to it's core theme of [ignoring my point and oversimplifying], I wasn't attributing that sentence to you.

As for the actual topic of debate however; I rest my case, you cannot grasp what is being discussed here.You are repeatedly misunderstanding what I say despite my clear explanations. Perhaps English isn't your first language, so my apologies if that is the case, but for all our sakes just stop, this is getting rediculous.


You are unclear in a lot of your posts as to what you actually mean. This is picked up by a lot of people. You seem to think my first post was talking directly to you, when indeed many people HAVE said that they think the jester IS banhammer, but you seem to think that - out of the blue - I must have been saying "Oberon thinks that this is LITERALLY this". You say I'm making a straw man out of your argument (whatever THAT is, because I've yet to see it), but then admit that you're in the habit of putting words into people's mouths. "Completely ignores my entire point, and once again oversimplifies the entire discussion." Just how big is your persecution complex, oberon? The poor communication is all on your end. You think a "clear explanation" is a wall of thinly veiled ad hominem, and you care more for the rhetoric of "I rest my case" and more, than any debate. Your last post screams nothing more than "I have nothing to say, except that I need the last word".

Ditto wrote:Denar - The jester is still consistent with Duty. In the passage you quoted from Jillian's flower dream, the Jester said 'Go save your people!' Jillian said 'I *can't*'. Not 'I don't want to, give me another way to spend my time.'. She said 'I *can't*'. Taking this as granted, the Jester gives her Plan B, which is the next best way to preserve her side - the function of Duty. If you cannot preserve your side through any other means, then it is logical (as an Heir) to escape yourself and let the side live on in you. Jack said it is a part of her, which, y'know, it is. Each person (or at least, each commander-level unit) has their own Duty guiding them toward the good of the side.


Yeah, I can see it as being that, I was just thrown a little by the fact he orders her to "found a new side!" - rather than something like "preserve the side", and also I really think there's a lot of significance behind Charlie's words, "Tool of the enemy". I dunno, is a warlord's inherent sense of duty really that? Because it sounds really grand.

But then again, the Thinkamancers all think that Charlie poses a huge threat to Thinkamancy as a whole, and aren't duty, loyalty and all that, a unit's inherent thinkamancy? That could be how it all ties together. But then, Thinkamancy is the "enemy"? Lots of puzzles.
Last edited by Denar on Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Thoke » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:23 pm

Denar wrote:I don't see how the jester can be "duty", I see a lot of people are saying that the jester is this. I saw someone made this connection because the jester "is like Banhammer", but that was entirely forum speculation in the past.

The jester does not care about Banhammer OR the side, it only cares about Jillian's self preservation. If she needs to protect the King/Casters to keep her advantage, then that's what it screams at her to do.

EDIT: ta da
[snip]


You quoted it yourself. From Duty's point of view there's two options.

Either abolish the threat to your side,
or if it's impossible and see no chance for the survival of your side: flee and start your side again. After all you're an heir and have an ability to do that.
Duty doesn't mean you should be stupid and ignore the reality of the situation, Duty means you do everything you can for your side, and if your side is still forwarding to certain doom, you abort and salvage what you can.

It's continuation that matters above everything else. And in this scenario, when you're an heir, you are the continuation.

...And Ditto beat me to it.

I do like your theory too though.

Now I'm going back to look all the past appearances of the jester.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Denar » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:29 pm

Thoke wrote:That matters above everything else. And in this scenario, when you're an heir, you are the continuation.

...And Ditto beat me to it.
I do like your theory too though.

Now I'm going back to look all the past appearances of the jester.


Haha, that's exactly what I did too. I think we really need an update where we can see Jillian back at home (wait, are we getting many more updates on this?), to see what = if any - long term effects the loss of the jester has caused (or is it really gone? was it just momentarily destroyed so that Charlie and Betsy could continue with their lobotomy unhindered?).

I'd like to know what a Jillian, who belongs to a side, is like without "Duty". She was apparently still the same enough to have the relationship with Wanda. And she hates Stanley with a passion for destroying FAQ, so she definitely still felt a "duty" (lowercase) to her side in matters of revenge.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:54 pm

Ok seriously, does nobody understand the meaning of putting quotes around a single word? I said Banhammer "became" the Jester, note the quotes. That is very different from actually saying he became the Jester, no quotes. It implies a figurative meaning of the word, because as previously stated we are dealing with drug-induced perceptions, not reality.

As for Denar, my last post merely means that I'm not going to teach you (or others) about basic English. You entire interpretation of this debate is wrong on so fundamental of a level I am acknowledging that I am powerless to correct you, and will no longer try. Although it's cute how you then proceed to try getting the last word yourself by making even less of a point than I did.

However for the sake of the general debate, allow me to remind folks of a quote that has not been brought up.
Inner Peace 70 wrote:She tried to turn to where her father had been standing.
The bald jester stood there now.
Banhammer is nowhere to be seen, and in his place is the Jester. This is what I mean by "became". Nobody has even been totally absent from Jillian's visions, so Banhammer has "become" the Jester. It's words may not be coming out of his mouth, but Jillian is pairing to two together in her perception. Whatever the Jester actually is, it is clearly tied to Banhammer at least in how it presents itself. That is my point, which is what Denar appeared to be refuting when he said "I saw someone made this connection because the jester "is like Banhammer", but that was entirely forum speculation in the past." This episode showed us that the Jester being "like Banhammer" is NOT forum speculation, but a demonstrated fact from this episode. We don't have to feel that the two are similar, but clearly Jillian does, and since it's her brain, that's what matters.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Denar » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:04 pm

0beron wrote:Jack became a bird. Betsy became the statue. Banhammer "became" the jester. SEE HOW THEY'RE ALL THE SAME?

Wait, what do you mean, he didn't actually become the jester? THAT'S WHY I PUT QUOTE MARKS AROUND IT. Because it's not like the others! Despite my original point being how it was like the others! Seriously guys, how come nobody knows what I mean? None of you can speak English!


wow i am getting good at your habit of boiling posts down to its core theme.

I'm going to go back to my point of "the jester is where Banhammer is, because Jillian is looking for banhammer, and instead finds something else now standing in the position of authority." That is the extent to how they are "like" each other. "How can this work?" Why, because she's in a drug addled hallucination, of course!

And suddenly, without any comic evidence to the contrary (not one person saying something like, "boy, the king SURE looked weird in that hallucination" or anything), THIS ALL becomes a moot point. Back to original point, jester =/= Banhammer for all the other reasons.
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