Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby CelebrenIthil » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:47 pm

They are tryin to hack her brain.
It's not the Arkenhammer the Jester wields, it's the

Image

As for who's the Jester:
Image

:mrgreen:
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby multilis » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:48 pm

Amado wrote: this topic hasn't yet come up: why does Charlie manifest as a swarm of insects?!?

I did not see that as unusual, Great Minds that Think Alike have explained why they don't like Charlie. He is like big brother, able to look almost everywhere and manipulate things, to a degree like a borg queen trying to turn world into his borg/pawns.

Or like having a spy agency in stupid world that can listen in on any phone call, has informers in every neighborhood, and ability to brainwash people who disagree. He could probe into every part of Jillian's mind and manipulated Betsy to help him brainwash Jill so she didn't even remember that she was brainwashed.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby programancer » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:56 pm

Lecan wrote:For me, it seems certain (obvious may be too strong a word) that the jester was Jillian's will, her independence that allowed her to resist Wanda's interrogations, defy Orders and wrest victory from defeat. These are all things Jillian is unable to do in Books 1 and 2.


You mean that the fact that Jillian stopped being a protagonist (by the time of Book 1 and 2) was justified in-universe too?

Then again, I agree with your way of analysis. If this brain surgery thing has consequences on Jiliian's actions and behaviour, then we need to identify the differences between Jillian in Book 0 and Jillian in Book1&2. If Rob is good (and he is), then there exist differences we can spot. As you have pointed out, a blatant one is that Jillian gave in to Wanda's torture. The question is which differences can be reasonably blamed on the brain surgery thing.

(edits are for typos)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby IronBear » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:58 pm

Ditto wrote:Being free of Duty gives you *completely* free will. Being free of Free Will makes you a mindless golem, which is not what Jillian is in anyway.

Jester represents her Duty. It's consistent with every past appearance in Jillian's mind, and we can put together a reason that Charlie is anti-Duty. Also, Duty is an unbearably strong compulsion, just like the buds are. Ripping out the strongest compulsion leaves a gap for Charlie to pave over, making the next-strongest compulsion (buds) easier to ferret out therefrom.


Eliminating the sense of Duty makes a little sense (more than her ability to use the arkenhammer), but the reason does not. But what is the motivation?

Charlie is under contract to reduce or eliminate her addiction to flower power. Eliminating the sense of Duty would leave her more open to Flower Power by your own admission.

I get the sense that you guys don't understand how Charlie's mind works. Charlie always keeps his deals. But give Charlie a mouse sized loophole and he will set up a conveyer belt to carry tank parts through it and assemble it on the other side.

I still think mechanism of Fate makes the most sense. The mechanism of Fate is not protected the contract since its behavior is unknown. Since its usefulness in fighting flower power is not a clear positive (in the future it may try to persuade Jillian to submit to Flower Power), its removal is allowed under the contract. Duty is a clear and demostrated positive in the fighting of flower power. Destroying it would be clear violation of the contract.

Finally, why would Betty help Charlie destroy Jillian's sense of Duty? For that to happen we have to assume that she did not identify it. Possible, but not likely.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby multilis » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:02 pm

IronBear wrote:Finally, why would Betty help Charlie destroy Jillian's sense of Duty? For that to happen we have to assume that she did not identify it. Possible, but not likely.

Betty did not know what she helped eliminate...


From the story:

"Come on, Warlord! No, the idea of the warlord. The champion. The fighter. It filled her mind. It took a shape." Charlie does not have warlords in Charliecom.

“What is it?” asked the Betsy concept - Betsy does not know what she helps eliminate “Don’t ever find out. Trussst me.” - she probably does not find out.

..

Parson is "the ultimate warlord" and he is an enemy of Charlie. What does Parson have? (I think other warlords have what Parson has to lesser degree, and current ruler of Jetstone is the leading example. He is not a pawn like his father but wanted to also talk to Parson.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Althernai » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:08 pm

Every once in a while this comic gets really disturbing in a bizarre way. This is perhaps the strongest of them. A few thoughts...

First, Betsy is not so much a monster as in way, way over her head. Charlie has clearly either studied minds before or has an innate understanding due to the Arkendish. Betsy has practically no idea what is going on and probably couldn't stop him even if she wanted to. My impression is that she wanted to tone down Jillian's aggression, but this is beyond her (it would require remaking the entire personality) and Charlie won't help with it. The contract is a blank check (read the last line and note that it has nothing to do with the addiction). Jillian trusted Betsy to protect her -- big mistake.

Second, this update finally explains her subsequent interactions with Charlie: unlike Jack and company, she's not merely prohibited from speaking, she literally doesn't remember anymore. It also makes his actions in the summer updates and Book 2 creepier.

Third, the jester: it's not obvious what he is from this update. He could be a representation of Fate or maybe some external force periodically manipulating Erfworld the way we manipulate strategy games. He could also be some aspect of Jillian's personality, except that Jillian in Parts 1 and 2 of Book 0 is not obviously different from Jillian in Books 1 and 2 so either this is not the case or Jillian gets him back somehow. It'll probably become more clear once we learn more about Charlie and what he is really fighting against.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby IronBear » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:11 pm

multilis wrote:Charlie has no warlords in Charliecom, it is possible he sees the enemy as something that naturally exists in warlords, a part of free will. Possible that removing it has consequences, that the Jillian today is damaged and that also ironically hurts Charlie. Perhaps Jillian's jester would have made Jillian stay at Jetstone fight, and his way of trying to prevent fate is actually helping fate fight him.


After this update I have come to the conculsion that Fate is not all powerful. It works through the epic exercise of Thinkmancy, Luckamancy, and Lookamancy.

All commanders and only commander have Duty, which is a natural thinkamancy that lets you override orders for the sake of your side. If I was Fate with epic control over Thinkamancy, this would be a weakness I could exploit to no end. By using non commanders guided only by a complex series of orders in the form of "Charlie's Rules", I simulate the positives of Duty, while reducing Fate's ability to manipulate my side.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby multilis » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:15 pm

IronBear wrote:
multilis wrote:Charlie has no warlords in Charliecom, it is possible he sees the enemy as something that naturally exists in warlords, a part of free will. Possible that removing it has consequences, that the Jillian today is damaged and that also ironically hurts Charlie. Perhaps Jillian's jester would have made Jillian stay at Jetstone fight, and his way of trying to prevent fate is actually helping fate fight him.


After this update I have come to the conculsion that Fate is not all powerful. It works through the epic exercise of Thinkmancy, Luckamancy, and Lookamancy.

All commanders and only commander have Duty, which is a natural thinkamancy that lets you override orders for the sake of your side. If I was Fate with epic control over Thinkamancy, this would be a weakness I could exploit to no end. By using non commanders guided only by a complex series of orders in the form of "Charlie's Rules", I simulate the positives of Duty, while reducing Fate's ability to manipulate my side.

Some of the positives of Duty... Every unit has duty, even a stabber who is just happy to stab and doesn't care why. But a warlord is more likely to think about why. That can be an asset as well as a risk, an army that is all top down tends to lose to an army where each 20 person squad may show local initiative. A much bigger persian army lost to a small elite greek army that had more free will.

Parson has more trouble winning battles when guys like Ansom do counter strategies. Without Ansom, Jetstone would have lost easier. Charliecom has no Ansom. Ansom can't rebel against Charlie, but he also can't help Charlie win. Charlie with powers of his dish to be everywhere himself and 600 archons has less need for that.
And even when Ansom made the wrong decisions, the warlords under Ansom often had a "jester like" sense that Ansom was doing the wrong thing.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:17 pm

A hammer you say?

What concerns me is that Betsy can't believe that a person with a conscience would cause physical harm, and thus doesn't think that blocking Jillian's aggression would actually remove her conscience. In book 0, Jillian shows concern for making people suffer, even enemies at times. In book 1 and 2, she is a borderline serial killer who seems to derive an almost sexual pleasure from decapitating people. Makes me think Betsy may have booped up a little. Just a tiny bit. A smidgen. We're all going to die.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby No one in particular » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:18 pm

I feel like it should be pointed out that Betsy has almost NO idea what she's doing. She only identifies things after Charlie points them out to her. She's a Healomancer, a caster of the Body, not the Mind.

Hmm... actually, concerning "Charlie as a swarm" and "Jillian regaining some will" (or whatever it is that the Jester may or may not have represented)... perhaps this is less "mental renovating" and more "mental landscaping."

After all, the mind is an organic, shifting thing. It's not static; it changes, it grows. Charlie, as the swarm of locusts, blanket everything and devour what he wants removed. Betsy, novice that she is, wants to weed, to prune, to uproot mental aspects she disapproves up. Jillian may be a stripped, burnt field now, but they didn't salt the place. What they took from her may simply grow back in a few hundred turns.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby hehehe426 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:21 pm

AAAAAHGHHH
SCREAMING
DYING
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE CHARLIE
WHAT DID YOU DO???!!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby multilis » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:25 pm

No one in particular wrote:What they took from her may simply grow back in a few hundred turns.

The great minds that think alike do brain surgery and they think it is permanent.

another option: Decryption might fix this then something else fix decryption like with Ossomer. (Eg, ansom may save her after she saves him)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby IronBear » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:25 pm

multilis wrote:
IronBear wrote:Finally, why would Betty help Charlie destroy Jillian's sense of Duty? For that to happen we have to assume that she did not identify it. Possible, but not likely.

Betty did not know what she helped eliminate...



That is what gives your theory some validity in my eyes. Charlie is clearly better than Betty at identifying things. But I think that Betty's first instinct was to try to identify the Jester. It is only when she can't after a reflexive evaluation that she trusts Charlie's judgement.

It is possible that Charlie took advantage of Betty's lack of experience, but I think something like Duty would be relatively easy to identify compared to foriegn Thinkamancy.

Here is what I need to consider your explaination more valid:
1) A motive that does not break the contract. (Duty has clearly demostrated the ability to fight flower power, and there is no feasible reason it would not do so in the future. A foriegn, unknown Thinkamancy would have an unknown objective that just happened to be in line with resisting flower power in the past.)
2) Clear example of Jillian lacking Duty to Faq after this event.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Beeskee » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:27 pm

I had a feeling Charlie was not the Biggest of the Bads.

But no proof or even a canon hint at such a thing, until now.

Wait for it, Parson will be about to wipe Charlie out and he'll be like "Wait, I may not be good, but I am doing it all to keep THIS THING in check." and pull back the curtain to reveal Cthulhu or something.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:29 pm

Amado wrote: this topic hasn't yet come up: why does Charlie manifest as a swarm of insects?!?
I thought Charlie was a swarm of bugs like this. I also thought those memory orbs were the thought bubbles that Maggie mentions here.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby multilis » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:29 pm

IronBear wrote:
multilis wrote:
IronBear wrote:Finally, why would Betty help Charlie destroy Jillian's sense of Duty? For that to happen we have to assume that she did not identify it. Possible, but not likely.

Betty did not know what she helped eliminate...



That is what gives your theory some validity in my eyes. Charlie is clearly better than Betty at identifying things. But I think that Betty's first instinct was to try to identify the Jester. It is only when she can't after a reflexive evaluation that she trusts Charlie's judgement.

It is possible that Charlie took advantage of Betty's lack of experience, but I think something like Duty would be relatively easy to identify compared to foriegn Thinkamancy.

Here is what I need to consider your explaination more valid:
1) A motive that does not break the contract. (Duty has clearly demostrated the ability to fight flower power, and there is no feasible reason it would not do so in the future. A foriegn, unknown Thinkamancy would have an unknown objective that just happened to be in line with resisting flower power in the past.)
2) Clear example of Jillian lacking Duty to Faq after this event.

What is Duty? A stabber has duty, but is not a warlord. Lowest stabber is just so happy to stab for his side before he dies, and only sad if he didn't stab. (We had an update from viewpoint of stabber) I think Jillian lost something else. When Ansom sends Jillian out to scout in book 1, there is no jester telling Jillian she is being reckless and might get captured.

Parson being perfect warlord is not about loyalty to Stanley.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby ftl » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:34 pm

Hah, so Jillian gets mind-wiped after all.

Though if the contract does successfully get Charlie to destroy the buds, then I suppose the deal accomplished what she wanted. She and Wanda are now free from the buds, forever.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby multilis » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:43 pm

Beeskee wrote:I had a feeling Charlie was not the Biggest of the Bads.

But no proof or even a canon hint at such a thing, until now.

Wait for it, Parson will be about to wipe Charlie out and he'll be like "Wait, I may not be good, but I am doing it all to keep THIS THING in check." and pull back the curtain to reveal Cthulhu or something.

Babylon 5 has superpower shadows and vorlons fighting. In end both are told to go away, "we don't want to be your pawns"

Book 1 ending here hints at similar. We have example of Charlie doing brain surgery and Great Minds wanting to do brain surgery. The buds were a form of brain surgery, and so was sword of ruthlessness.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby frei » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:53 pm

(name here) wrote:Huh, so apparently the Jester was external.

I wonder if Charlie made Jillian stop being a player character.


I strongly agree that the Jester was a manifestation of fate, and I also think this lends some support to the idea that fate is somehow external -- player characters, or the audience, or something like that.

Very nice note to end Inner Peace on. The ending definitely makes me like the rest of the book better, which is a rare occurrence. Thanks, Rob!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby cheeseaholic » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:04 pm

I see a lot of people saying that Charlie is fighting Duty or Fate. If this is so, then I think it's less to put forth free will and more to either be permanently free of those things himself (or for carnies in general) or to become the new GM as it were. He rules over golems and crazy loyal archons, manipulates everyone, and is a carney - whose magic is "fixing the game".
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