Epilogue 21 – Vinny

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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby DoctorJest » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:07 pm

crex90 wrote:I can't tell if the note is saying: "Get me an inventory of the units, because I plan to conquer FAQ" or "Get me 1) an inventory of the units and 2) a plan to conquer FAQ".

If the latter, it could be a just-in-case scenario.


He didn't ask about units. He asked about assets. Cash. Dinero. Clams. Stuff worth things. So, for example, if it were sacked, how many schmuckers could we maybe get to refill the treasury since we're now broke from propping this loony lady up in the first place?

Units aren't assets because they cost upkeep, which makes them expenses. Assets are things of intrinsic value. Expenses are things of use that you pay for.

I don't think Caesar is planning to betray TV, but is rather acting out of Duty to do what he thinks as CW is best for his (now bankrupt) side, and he doesn't want Don to know because he doesn't trust that Don will let him, and as we know commanders can defy their leaders if it aligns with their sense of Duty to the side.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Sir Shadow » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:14 pm

Guys, I think you are looking at this the wrong way. Who said Caesar was going to spin off his own side? He likes TV.

I think Caesar is planning a coup to dispose of Don and his first move after becoming ruler is to take back the previous ruler's 'investment' in FAQ.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Jabberwocky » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:29 pm

ManaCaster wrote:Doesn't sound like Vinny and Jillian's relationship is all that healthy right now. He likes her just slightly more than a hat! Not to mention that she just left him to get back her ex-boyfriend.


In all fairness, that is an awesome hat.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby MonteCristo » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:35 pm

ManaCaster wrote:Doesn't sound like Vinny and Jillian's relationship is all that healthy right now. He likes her just slightly more than a hat!

Nah, you got it backwards. He REALLY likes that hat
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:45 pm

DoctorJest wrote:Units aren't assets because they cost upkeep, which makes them expenses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_asset

ManaCaster wrote:I do wonder how he's going to handle a 3-way conflict in Loyalty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTs6oQx1WJY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi7gwX7rjOw

Did anyone else notice that the town is actually Mos Eisley? Is it a hint of things to come, like when Maggie designed Gobwin Knob with Bavarian architecture?
Last edited by Shai_hulud on Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby name lips » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:45 pm

In all fairness, it's a pretty awesome hat.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby ftl » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:34 pm

Man, that just sounds like a bad move by Caesar.

Yes, FAQ was a terrible investment. But sacking it won't get your investment back. Better to sack Carpool or Metro cities, and get FAQ's help to do it. Just don't give them any *more* money.

(Obviously, it makes sense to sack FAQ if that *would* get more of the investment back. But I don't think it does? The money's been spent, FAQ has an airforce, why would TV want to fight it...)

Oh hey! I have a new idea! Caesar allies with GK and helps *Stanley* sack FAQ. Again. :twisted: Jillian would just *love* that, I'm sure! :lol:
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Sir Shadow » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:52 pm

I doubt he'd sack FAQ. It's in a highly defensible position near TV and it gives the side another capital. It's better to rake the income from them.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Lipkin » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:01 pm

It's an interesting twist of loyalty to Vinny. If he's loyal to Don, he'll report Caesar. If he's loyal to Caesar, he'll give Caesar the info. If he's loyal to Jillian he'll give false information. How hurt is he going to be being set aside for Ansom, who Vinny doesn't even know can be turned? If Ansom were to be turned, how would Vinny react? Is he the jealous type?

I can tell you one thing. Charlie would love to get his hooks into Vinny.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby CelebrenIthil » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:30 pm

Everyone also seems to be forgetting that Jillian is expecting.

I don't feel like archive-digging but I'm fairly certain Vinny knows about the fact FAQ is trying to pop a royal heir. Conquering it, even if it's done in one fell swoop while Jillian is still away, will prevent Jillian's son or daughter from popping (as far as I know).

Add that to the jumbled mess Vinny has to deal with.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby zbeeblebrox » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:31 pm

Ah, and here it is. The main thrust of book three (if you will). Transylvito vs. Transylvito vs. Faq. Now we finally get to see whether Jillian's long experience as a warlord and barbarian have paid off, or if her best strategies are only worth a damn if she's already captured.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby drachefly » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:31 pm

Hoo boy.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby ftl » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:33 pm

If I had to guess, Vinny's loyalty to Jillian is pretty low.

1) Even though he likes her, she's just barely above a spiffy hat.
2) When Jillian gives him a misleadingly brief response, he finds it "suspicious" - he doesn't trust her. And he doesn't ask *her* for clarification, he gets in touch with Bunny.
3) ...even if he had a bunch of loyalty before, she did just bring back her ex, to turn him. That would have shaken it.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby ftl » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:34 pm

He'll definitely have to choose between Caesar and Don.

Everyone in TV will.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Thecommander236 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:17 pm

Well... shit. That's disturbing...
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby No one in particular » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:42 pm

zbeeblebrox wrote:Ah, and here it is. The main thrust of book three (if you will). Transylvito vs. Transylvito vs. Faq. Now we finally get to see whether Jillian's long experience as a warlord and barbarian have paid off, or if her best strategies are only worth a damn if she's already captured.

You know... if that meant we got to see Parson take off the Warlord hat and put on the Diplomat hat... that would be totally AWESOME.

On the one level, it's the fighting going on between TV & TV & Faq... on another level, it's REALLY a fight between Parson & Tramennis, as they talk & manipulate OTHER sides into either hamstringing themselves, or each other, or allying, or... whoo. That could be GOOD, in a non-fighty sort of way.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby 0beron » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:03 pm

CelebrenIthil wrote:FAQ is trying to pop a royal heir. Conquering it, even if it's done in one fell swoop while Jillian is still away, will prevent Jillian's son or daughter from popping (as far as I know). Add that to the jumbled mess Vinny has to deal with.
Yes and no. Cities sites seem to hold a memory of the progress they had made towards popping a unit when they fall. GK City was razed, and as soon as it was rebuilt, it popped the Dwagon that was due that turn. So if FAQ City is captured or razed/rebuilt, it will presumably continue producing it's Heir. However, this situation would invoke a few more questions (and presumably answer most of them)
  • Is the unit itself still the same? In other words, would the individual who would have been Jillain's child still pop, just as a TV unit instead? Or would it be someone different, Cesear's child.
  • Would the unit be a Royal still? This ties into a larger question of what Ceasar's spin-off side would be. He's Noble, but not "Royal", and we still don't know whether the distinction between these two is mechanical or purely social/convention. If he becomes a King instead of Overlord, it would have interesting implications, as would it if he becomes Overlord but the unit pops as a Royal prince/princess.
This also depends on whether Overlord sides can pop Heirs in the first place. Because they can have normal children, I think we have to assume it is indeed possible, and that Royalty is just the whole connection to the Titans thing.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Mrtyuh » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:37 pm

Nargrakhan wrote:Something that's been bothering me... At what point or under what circumstances can a unit disobey a disband command from his ruler? I mean, it seems easy enough for a ruler to kill his would be usurper with a simple thought... and that sorta makes insurrections difficult to pull off unless it's a behind the scene assassination. Still, if the kill isn't instantaneous enough, a ruler's last thought could be to disband the most likely traitor. By the same token, how does one break Duty to their ruler for betrayal? It's one thing to disobey instructions for the good of the king, but an entirely different thing to disobey instructions that allow you to kill the king.

I guess it depends if it's Duty to a side, a ruler or both. We know that Duty can compel a unit to disobey an order if they feel it's not in the best interests of the ruler/side. We know that Caesar loves Transylvito. It pained him to watch part of it burning. So, he still has high Loyalty and/or Duty to his side. His Loyalty to Don has been evaporating for some time now. So, theoretically, Caesar could disobey the disband order from Don if he felt it wasn't in Transylvito's best interests. In that case, Transylvito would no longer pay his upkeep, so he'd either need to go barbarian or usurp the throne. Since his Duty is to Transylvito, it would compel him to remove a ruler that is doing the side harm. That's all wild speculation of course.

0beron wrote:As always, Rob manages to surprise us. All this talk about what Ceasar would do within TV (with some debate about TV as a whole going after FAQ perhaps) but never once did we consider Ceasar spinning off, IIRC.
This miiiiight give us more insight into spinning off, because if that is indeed what Ceasar plans, it suggests you do not need Ruler consent as we previously suspected. But once again it's an heir(designate) doing it, so we ave yet to see suggestion that it can be just anyone.

Haffaton was founded by a warlord that crossed the sea, conquered a barbarian capital site and split from his side to found his own. Now, we know he was an Overlord, so he wasn't royal or noble. Still, he could have been an heir to another Overlord, and he may have had permission to do so, but the impression I got from the story was that he had a capital site and just decided to do it. As always, though, I may be wrong.

Noigel wrote:I think he wants to leverage FAQ to conquer TV. Not conquer FAQ.

Caesar despises Jillian. There is no way he'd ever work with her, especially against his own side. Caesar loves Transylvito, even if he is becoming disillusioned with its ruler.

Sir Shadow wrote:Guys, I think you are looking at this the wrong way. Who said Caesar was going to spin off his own side? He likes TV.

I think Caesar is planning a coup to dispose of Don and his first move after becoming ruler is to take back the previous ruler's 'investment' in FAQ.

That seems to be one of the three most likely things Caesar is planning....

  1. ...to stage a coup d'état and then attack Faq
  2. ...to conquer Faq, found his own side and then attack Transylvito
  3. ...to conquer Faq and hope Don accepts the fait accompli

Of course, just because that is what Caesar may be planning, I can see events unfolding very differently. Personally, from a narrative standpoint, I can't see Faq falling again anytime soon. There is the drama of Jillian trying to turn Ansom. If she was a barbarian again, it would be difficult for her to pay both of their upkeeps. In connection with that, there is the irony of her becoming a queen, since she felt that is what he would have wanted, only to have it now be an obstacle between them. There is also the love-hate relationship between Jillian and Wanda, which requires them to be on different sides for the time being. There is also the friendly relationship between Jillian and Jetstone's new King. While Tramennis was willing to negotiate with Gobwin Knob from a position of strength and was even toying with the idea of an alliance against Charlie, I feel he won't be entertaining those notions after the fall of Spacerock and the death of his father. While I can foresee him eventually allying with Gobwin Knob, it won't be in the near term. Then you have Transylvito. Thematically, they're natural allies to Gobwin Knob. Parson and the Great Minds are planning on contacting sides with Thinkamancers to attempt to gather allies. Transylvito has a Thinkamancer, Bunny, who has grown disillusioned with her ruler's Royalist Crusade and is in love with his soon to be displaced heir. The most likely scenario, to me, is that Vinny informs Don of Caesar's intentions towards Faq. This causes a confrontation between the two that leads to Caesar deposing Don. Caesar attacks Faq and fails, and he ends up allying with Gobwin Knob to oppose their mutual foe. Of course, I'm wrong a lot.

ftl wrote:Man, that just sounds like a bad move by Caesar.

Yes, FAQ was a terrible investment. But sacking it won't get your investment back. Better to sack Carpool or Metro cities, and get FAQ's help to do it. Just don't give them any *more* money.

(Obviously, it makes sense to sack FAQ if that *would* get more of the investment back. But I don't think it does? The money's been spent, FAQ has an airforce, why would TV want to fight it...)

Oh hey! I have a new idea! Caesar allies with GK and helps *Stanley* sack FAQ. Again. :twisted: Jillian would just *love* that, I'm sure! :lol:

Transylvito is almost broke. Sometimes it's better to cut your loses and take a loss on the investment. It's better to some of the money back than to lose it all. Also, the war with Carpool is going poorly. Their cities are theoretically too well defended for Caesar to take with the forces he has available. Faq, on the other hand, has three cities that are virtually undefended, with the entire Faq armada five turns away. Sounds like a better risk-reward scenario to me. Jillian can't maintain her current task force for multiple turns on her purse alone. If Caesar can conquer Faq quickly enough, he would only have to fight a fraction of her current might.

CelebrenIthil wrote:Everyone also seems to be forgetting that Jillian is expecting.

I don't feel like archive-digging but I'm fairly certain Vinny knows about the fact FAQ is trying to pop a royal heir. Conquering it, even if it's done in one fell swoop while Jillian is still away, will prevent Jillian's son or daughter from popping (as far as I know).

Add that to the jumbled mess Vinny has to deal with.

Vinny was the one who passed on Don's demand that she begin popping an heir. In a way, he knew she was expecting before she did.

No one in particular wrote:
zbeeblebrox wrote:Ah, and here it is. The main thrust of book three (if you will). Transylvito vs. Transylvito vs. Faq. Now we finally get to see whether Jillian's long experience as a warlord and barbarian have paid off, or if her best strategies are only worth a damn if she's already captured.

You know... if that meant we got to see Parson take off the Warlord hat and put on the Diplomat hat... that would be totally AWESOME.

On the one level, it's the fighting going on between TV & TV & Faq... on another level, it's REALLY a fight between Parson & Tramennis, as they talk & manipulate OTHER sides into either hamstringing themselves, or each other, or allying, or... whoo. That could be GOOD, in a non-fighty sort of way.

I agree. It would be very interesting to watch. I think that's the direction in which the story is moving, but, as I said above, I think Tramennis may not be willing to negotiate immediately after recent events.

0beron wrote:
CelebrenIthil wrote:FAQ is trying to pop a royal heir. Conquering it, even if it's done in one fell swoop while Jillian is still away, will prevent Jillian's son or daughter from popping (as far as I know). Add that to the jumbled mess Vinny has to deal with.
Yes and no. Cities sites seem to hold a memory of the progress they had made towards popping a unit when they fall. GK City was razed, and as soon as it was rebuilt, it popped the Dwagon that was due that turn. So if FAQ City is captured or razed/rebuilt, it will presumably continue producing it's Heir. However, this situation would invoke a few more questions (and presumably answer most of them)

That isn't quite right. Gobwin Knob never fell. The damage to the city was self inflicted by Sizemore collapsing the tunnels and buildings. It reduced the city from a Level 5 to a Level 0, but it wasn't the same as raising it. When the Battle of Gobwin Knob ended, there were still golems and uncroaked holding the garrison for Gobwin Knob, while all members of the RCC perished. So the city remained the capital of Gobwin Knob the entire time, and there was no interruption in the production, although the production was probably reduced and it still managed to produce a dwagon, which is usually can only be produced by Level 3+ cities. The RCC never claimed and razed the city. So, we have no evidence that a razed city "remember" production. All that scenario proves is that a city can continue to produce a unit even after the city's level has dropped below the threshold usually required to produce that unit.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby 0beron » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:52 pm

Mrtyuh wrote:[Haffaton's origin story suggests permission may not be needed to spin off]
Hmm that's a fair point I had forgotten that. It's possible he was sent across the sea specifically TO split because his home side had gotten too big, so he could have been given permission in advance. However what I was actually thinking of was a more concrete example, where Jillian seems very fixated on the idea of getting permission from Banhammer to spin off in Book 0.
Mrtyuh wrote:That isn't quite right. Gobwin Knob never fell...It [was] reduced from a Level 5 to a Level 0, but it wasn't the same as raising it.
I disagree. A "Level 0 City" is a destroyed city, regardless of whether the damage was self inflicted or whether it was formally razed. City hexes are level 0 when they haven't been built on, so regardless of how it's made that way, it holds the same status. Perhaps if some RCC troops had survived then the site would need to be cleared of them before it could be rebuilt, so there was uncontested control, but there really isn't anything for the uncroaked/golems to have been holding since it was a 0.
And actually as I write this a side issue arrises to give me pause. The Uncroaked should have disbanded when the city was destroyed because losing your last city should trigger "Side Falls" conditions, leaving only the units in the MK, and Stanely's stack. So I'm a little confused by that. Can anyone recall whether we got confirmation that GK's Treasury survived/didn't survive the blast? Cus that would be the real ultimate proof.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby No one in particular » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:07 pm

Mrtyuh wrote:
No one in particular wrote:You know... if that meant we got to see Parson take off the Warlord hat and put on the Diplomat hat... that would be totally AWESOME.

On the one level, it's the fighting going on between TV & TV & Faq... on another level, it's REALLY a fight between Parson & Tramennis, as they talk & manipulate OTHER sides into either hamstringing themselves, or each other, or allying, or... whoo. That could be GOOD, in a non-fighty sort of way.

I agree. It would be very interesting to watch. I think that's the direction in which the story is moving, but, as I said above, I think Tramennis may not be willing to negotiate immediately after recent events.
Fair 'nough; Jetstone's been dealt a heavy blow, emotionally & financially.

However! Tramennis the Diplomat doesn't have to necessarily build any alliances to still fight Gobwin Knob here. Less "Join me in a grand alliance!" manipulation and more "GK's a more dangerous threat than the Side you've been feuding with for 100s of Turns. Maybe focus on the bigger threat?"

After all, REAL diplomacy is getting two other guys to fight FOR you. :D
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