Epilogue 21 – Vinny

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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Roketter » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:20 pm

Nargrakhan wrote:Something that's been bothering me... At what point or under what circumstances can a unit disobey a disband command from his ruler? I mean, it seems easy enough for a ruler to kill his would be usurper with a simple thought... and that sorta makes insurrections difficult to pull off unless it's a behind the scene assassination. Still, if the kill isn't instantaneous enough, a ruler's last thought could be to disband the most likely traitor. By the same token, how does one break Duty to their ruler for betrayal? It's one thing to disobey instructions for the good of the king, but an entirely different thing to disobey instructions that allow you to kill the king.


In most strategy games, once a unit goes "Rebel" you cannot control it or disband it until you either make him come back to your side by raising his loyalty stat, capture, or kill it. Worst part is in many games they still get their upkeep paid by your own treasury.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Surfal » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:24 pm

0beron wrote:
Mrtyuh wrote:[Haffaton's origin story suggests permission may not be needed to spin off]
Hmm that's a fair point I had forgotten that. It's possible he was sent across the sea specifically TO split because his home side had gotten too big, so he could have been given permission in advance. However what I was actually thinking of was a more concrete example, where Jillian seems very fixated on the idea of getting permission from Banhammer to spin off in Book 0.
Mrtyuh wrote:That isn't quite right. Gobwin Knob never fell...It [was] reduced from a Level 5 to a Level 0, but it wasn't the same as raising it.
I disagree. A "Level 0 City" is a destroyed city, regardless of whether the damage was self inflicted or whether it was formally razed. City hexes are level 0 when they haven't been built on, so regardless of how it's made that way, it holds the same status. Perhaps if some RCC troops had survived then the site would need to be cleared of them before it could be rebuilt, so there was uncontested control, but there really isn't anything for the uncroaked/golems to have been holding since it was a 0.
And actually as I write this a side issue arrises to give me pause. The Uncroaked should have disbanded when the city was destroyed because losing your last city should trigger "Side Falls" conditions, leaving only the units in the MK, and Stanely's stack. So I'm a little confused by that. Can anyone recall whether we got confirmation that GK's Treasury survived/didn't survive the blast? Cus that would be the real ultimate proof.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F133.jpg

Level ONE city, not level 0.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Mrtyuh » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:25 pm

0beron wrote:Hmm that's a fair point I had forgotten that. It's possible he was sent across the sea specifically TO split because his home side had gotten too big, so he could have been given permission in advance. However what I was actually thinking of was a more concrete example, where Jillian seems very fixated on the idea of getting permission from Banhammer to spin off in Book 0.

True, but that was also a unique situation. Charlie's deal required everyone to agree to it, including Jillian. Jillian refusing the Deal of a Lifetime and founding her own side would have had serious negative consequences for her former side. Despite Jillian's opinion of the Court of Faq, she still felt Duty towards her side and didn't want to damage it. That's how her seeking permission seemed to me. She felt compelled to ask for permission since she knew it would be bad for her side. Of course, that's just my interpretation. I can certainly see it going either way.

0beron wrote:I disagree. A "Level 0 City" is a destroyed city, regardless of whether the damage was self inflicted or whether it was formally razed. City hexes are level 0 when they haven't been built on, so regardless of how it's made that way, it holds the same status. Perhaps if some RCC troops had survived then the site would need to be cleared of them before it could be rebuilt, so there was uncontested control, but there really isn't anything for the uncroaked/golems to have been holding since it was a 0.
And actually as I write this a side issue arrises to give me pause. The Uncroaked should have disbanded when the city was destroyed because losing your last city should trigger "Side Falls" conditions, leaving only the units in the MK, and Stanely's stack. So I'm a little confused by that. Can anyone recall whether we got confirmation that GK's Treasury survived/didn't survive the blast? Cus that would be the real ultimate proof.

Actually, I misremembered that. I thought Sizemore had said, "we are effectively a Level 0 city," but he that they were a Level 1 (thanks Surfal). Still, what happened there was a different mechanic than razing a city. When a side razes a city, they must first control it, then they make it stop being a city in exchange for schmuckers. It ceases being a city and become a city site. Gobwin Knob received no schmuckers for what they did to their own capital. It was a defensive action designed to croak enemy units. Their capital never ceased being a city.

Also, for a side to capture a city, there can be no defending units left in any of the garrison zones. This can be accomplished by destroying the garrison, e.g. burning it to the ground, having the defenders evacuate the garrison or having an attacker croak or capture every defending unit. The attacker must control all three garrison zones. This never happened with Gobwin Knob. The RCC never had uncontested control of the dungeon; there were always golems and uncroaked in that zone, both during and after the volcano's eruption. Since Gobwin Knob occupation of the dungeon was uninterrupted and all attacking units were croaked, they maintained possession of the city the entire time, even if most of the zones were overrun by the enemy. While I'm usually very willing to admit that I may be wrong, but the rules regarding this were pretty explicitly spelled out in one of Parson's Klogs, so I'm almost positive I'm right here, at least on the whole capturing a city thing. The razing a city mechanics are certainly still open to interpretation.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Roketter » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:29 pm

I think we'r going to finally see the gang reunited in the third book, Jillian, Vinnie and Ansom vs the World. Also, now the big baddies will be PArson and Charlie, competing over supremacy. TRansilvito is likely to enter civil war, or the Don might give in to Caesar a and let him run the side after being humiliated like this. TRamenis will likely be attempting to as many of his people as he possibly can.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby 0beron » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:30 pm

Problem is solved by it being a Level 1. I still argue that if it HAD become a full Level 0, regardless of how, the same mechanic would apply, because we have no evidence to the contrary. Rather than assuming special circumstances and exceptions, you have to go with what is given, and that would be all level 0s being treated the same.
However, GK city did not fall to 0, therefor we have no idea what happens to uncompleted production when this occurs, so moot point really.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Beeskee » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:01 am

The bat undies really made this update for me. <3 <3 <3

The only other things I would add have already been said.

I think Caesar is asking for an inventory AND a plan, but it's hard to tell. And he's drunk. :D Makes sense tho, Vinny is an inside man and would be the best one to come up with a plan on how to conquer FAQ.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby No one in particular » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:20 am

Plan to conquer Faq:
  1. Wait for Jill to get back
  2. Propose a special night
  3. SUCK SUCK SUCK
  4. Profit!
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"Not at all. I saved it for my last battle."
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Gregoriownd » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:33 am

Considering that Parson is planning to actively look for thinkamancers of other sides, esp. enemy sides, to work with GK, and that Parson wants to off FAQ to remove it as a threat... this could be a HUGE break for Parson. Get into a conversation w/ Ceaser via Bunny about their now mutual foe in FAQ (after finding out somehow... likely via working w/ the great minds) and then use the strike at FAQ to either:

A) effectively flip Trans. to GK's side by having Ceaser seize control in a coup
or
B) Split Trans. by spinning off a new side in FAQ.

Either way, this gains GK an ally, at least in terms of dealing with standard sides, perhaps in the infowar w/ Charlie as well, esp. if that continues to move more into the open. Presuming Parson does catch wind of this via his attempts to recruit off-side thinkamancers, I doubt he would pass up an opportunity like this. Of course, knowing Parson, there may very well be a C) option in there that no one will think of until he pulls it out and waves it around.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:51 am

I would argue that FAQ City is actually the most valuable known capital site. Sure GK City has the gems and is a "theoretical level 8", but FAQ's valley is totally cut off and allows you to control what units come to attack you. So having that site fall under their control (either directly or through Alliance) should definitely be high on Parson's list of priorities
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby MonteCristo » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:12 am

Y'know i'm glad we finally get a pic of the new Faq capitol. I remember reading the description in the text, but had so much trouble picturing it in my head

ftl wrote:If I had to guess, Vinny's loyalty to Jillian is pretty low.

1) Even though he likes her, she's just barely above a spiffy hat.
2) When Jillian gives him a misleadingly brief response, he finds it "suspicious" - he doesn't trust her. And he doesn't ask *her* for clarification, he gets in touch with Bunny.
3) ...even if he had a bunch of loyalty before, she did just bring back her ex, to turn him. That would have shaken it.


1) again, its the opposite. That's not indication about how little he likes Jillian, but how much he likes his hat. Heck i think the line about the skanks might even be an indication of how bad he has it for Jillian; Seems odd he would shrug him off considering how he loved the attention of the archons. I think he's got it bad enough for Jillian, that the skanks are boring him; its also why he's seems dissapointed that Jillian is bringing her ex home.
2) Vinny would know by now that getting info from Jillian can be difficult(especially by hat); Thinkagram to Bunny is MUCH faster and reliable
3) Eh, maybe... Could certain be enough to make him want to go back to TV. However he'd have to be a complete jerk to sell her out to Ceasar just because she picked her old boyfriend who also happens to be one of Vinny's closest friends. "You broke up with me, so i stole your stuff, burned your house down, and left you homeless." Ya that's the worst way to handle a break up... and this isn't even counting that Ceasar would want Jillian Croaked, not just homeless.

When it comes do duty... Vinny will be crossed between Ceasar and Don. Don has been leading the side to ruin, but unlike Ceasar, Vinny has been away from the court from a long time, hasn't seen Don all that much, and we have never heard him speak ill of Don. Ceasar may not be making a play against Don just yet, but Faq's is Don's investment and Vinny's duty may see it as a betrayl to Don to take Faq without his permission. So Vinny may not follow Ceasar on this endeavor, as his loyalty may still be to Don first. Also if i recall, Love can really mess with loyalty. Not only could Vinny rationalize protecting Faq as defending Don's investment, he could do it out of lingering feelings to Jillian... Simply put, i really don't see Vinny betraying Jillian. This whole sitaution will mess him up something bad as his loyalties and loves clash, but ultimately think he'll defend Jillian rather than betray her. Love messing with the dice.


Also while I am expecting things to end badly for Don, i'm wouldn't say the same for Faq. Jillian and Wanda are bound by fate, which is to say Jillian has an important role to play in this story. And while she can stay in the story as a barbarian, it seems a bit backwards to go through all the effort to give Jillian back her side, only for it to all be taken away right afterward. There's been A LOT of build up for the new faq,and it seems odd that it would end up falling after only one major battle; if Faq were to fall again, i would think it would be after Jillian got a lot more use of it. I mean if they were gonna take Faq away so quickly, why bother letting her rebuild it and turn her back into a barbarian; Jillian is back where she started; one step forward, one step back.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Beeskee » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:38 am

All these sideplots are great but I'm looking forward to getting back to Parson. :D
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:44 am

MonteCristo wrote:I mean if they were gonna take Faq away so quickly, why bother letting her rebuild it and turn her back into a barbarian; Jillian is back where she started; one step forward, one step back.
There is some sense to this...however we know that this is never what Jillian wanted. Even now, she's clearly grasping at straws in her conversation with decrypted Ansom, saying "here I am, the queen you always wanted, love me again so that I can tell myself the sacrifice was worth it." So while I think FAQ as a side has a crucial role to play in the future, I think Jillian will jump at any chance to stop being it's Queen. Be that transferring control to her Heir asap, or perhaps even willingly surrendering the side to Ceasar to control. Obviously she won't do it unless the move is smart, but part of her wants to escape the ball and chain of Rulership.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby MonteCristo » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:59 am

0beron wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:I mean if they were gonna take Faq away so quickly, why bother letting her rebuild it and turn her back into a barbarian; Jillian is back where she started; one step forward, one step back.
There is some sense to this...however we know that this is never what Jillian wanted. Even now, she's clearly grasping at straws in her conversation with decrypted Ansom, saying "here I am, the queen you always wanted, love me again so that I can tell myself the sacrifice was worth it." So while I think FAQ as a side has a crucial role to play in the future, I think Jillian will jump at any chance to stop being it's Queen. Be that transferring control to her Heir asap, or perhaps even willingly surrendering the side to Ceasar to control. Obviously she won't do it unless the move is smart, but part of her wants to escape the ball and chain of Rulership.


Actually i was speaking a bit more in terms of narrative... as in, why would Rob go through the trouble of rebuilding Faq and restoring Jillian to the throne, if he was just going to turn her back into a barbarian again? Sure we get some great internal conflict on TV's end, but there were other ways we could have gotten that. And Jillian didn't exactly need a whole army to perform the king's world spell and capture Ansom. It just seems wasteful to set up Faq just to break it down so quickly... I would expect A LOT more be done with Faq before it exits the story.

Though it is indeed true, that Jillian could be looking for an excuse to go Barbarian again. Though she might see Faq's forces as her best shot at taking down Stanley. Not to mention she might not have much of a choice. She was fated to become the Queen of Faq, and as queen she may have important roel to play. Fate itself, might keep her on the throne. Though i wouldn't be surprised that, assuming Jillian lives till the end of the story, that she would give the side to her heir and run off to be a barbarian again.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Tonot » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:10 am

ManaCaster wrote:Doesn't sound like Vinny and Jillian's relationship is all that healthy right now. He likes her just slightly more than a hat! Not to mention that she just left him to get back her ex-boyfriend.

I do wonder how he's going to handle a 3-way conflict in Loyalty.



I choose your post just as representation of a theme people are repeating, so don't take this too personally.

. It strikes me people have read this http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F139.jpg page of the comic and not realised that Vinny also was in love with Ansom.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Lipkin » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:54 am

Tonot wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:Doesn't sound like Vinny and Jillian's relationship is all that healthy right now. He likes her just slightly more than a hat! Not to mention that she just left him to get back her ex-boyfriend.

I do wonder how he's going to handle a 3-way conflict in Loyalty.



I choose your post just as representation of a theme people are repeating, so don't take this too personally.

. It strikes me people have read this http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F139.jpg page of the comic and not realised that Vinny also was in love with Ansom.

I never read it like that. I always saw Vinny and Ansom as bros. After all, Vinny didn't react with jealousy when Ansom and Jillian where hooking up in the field. Ansom was Vinny's best friend. Of course he took Ansom's croaking hard.






I have a question. How does hat magic work? Can a message hat only send to another message hat? Or any hat? I don't expect an answer, just that I'm realizing that even if Vinny wanted to stay loyal to Don, it doesn't matter. I'm assuming message hats are fairly rare, meaning there likely would only be one at the capital, and it's in Caesar's possession. The only other way to get a hold of Don is through Bunny, which is likely to get a response of "Don isn't available right now. He'll get back to you as soon as he can." This means that if Vinny wants to warn Don, he's got to fly back to TV himself.

I see things happening like this.

Vinny sends off false information to Caesar, making Faq's capitol seem less vulnerable than it is.
Bunny knows the information is wrong, because she knows the basic compilation of the forces with Jillian, and they don't add up. Caesar now knows Vinny has betrayed him, and musters his forces to go attack Faq.
Vinny tries to warn Don, and fails. Vinny warns Faq to prepare for war.
Caesar breaks with Faq without Don's sayso, and Vinny has to turn barbarian to prevent Faq's forces from attacking him, as he is now technically an enemy unit in Faq's battle space.
Vinny fights with Faq against Caesar. He's badly outmatched, but manages to stall long enough for Jillian to return and chase Caesar off. Vinny may or may not die in the defense of Faq.
Caesar knows he's screwed. He's betrayed his king, and failed to take Faq besides. Cue Maggie contacting Bunny with an offer.


That's how I'd write it anyway, or something similar. Caesar is fortunate that he effectively controls all information into the capital right now.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:04 am

When did Jillian and Vinnny hook up? How'd I miss that?
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby ManaCaster » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:44 am

Tonot wrote:It strikes me people have read this http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F139.jpg page of the comic and not realised that Vinny also was in love with Ansom.

Yes. Because being lovers or having a crush is the only reason to ever mourn someone.

OneHugeTuck wrote:When did Jillian and Vinnny hook up? How'd I miss that?

At the end of the Battle for Gobwin Knob, in the page Tonot just linked.

Nookie starts getting mentioned in First Intermission.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby mortissimus » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:00 am

0beron wrote:
Mrtyuh wrote:[Haffaton's origin story suggests permission may not be needed to spin off]
Hmm that's a fair point I had forgotten that. It's possible he was sent across the sea specifically TO split because his home side had gotten too big, so he could have been given permission in advance. However what I was actually thinking of was a more concrete example, where Jillian seems very fixated on the idea of getting permission from Banhammer to spin off in Book 0.


When Parson is listing his possibilities in burning Spacerock and Charlie is swatting them down, Charlie says that Parson can not start his own side if there are other GK units left there. And possibly the summoning spell might stop him. Charlie does not say "you are not an heir, ergo you can not spin off a side" or "you can't get permission from your ruler, ergo you can not spin off a side" though both these would be more definite ends to that idea if they are true (after all, Parson might have had a plan to get rid of all otehr GK units in the Garrison).

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2013-04-30.jpg

So, I say we can be pretty sure that either any commander or a CW (and Ceasar is both) can spin off a side without permission. It is possible that they can do it all the time, but that there is only a point to it if they can get their hands on another capital site, which in Jillians case would have demanded some support from FAQ.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Oliolli » Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:09 am

ManaCaster wrote:
Tonot wrote:It strikes me people have read this http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F139.jpg page of the comic and not realised that Vinny also was in love with Ansom.

Yes. Because being lovers or having a crush is the only reason to ever mourn someone.

Yes. Because being lovers or having a crush are the only forms of love in existance.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Lipkin » Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:14 am

Oliolli wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:
Tonot wrote:It strikes me people have read this http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F139.jpg page of the comic and not realised that Vinny also was in love with Ansom.

Yes. Because being lovers or having a crush is the only reason to ever mourn someone.

Yes. Because being lovers or having a crush are the only forms of love in existance.

Are you you adding to MC's point, or do you honestly not realize he was being sarcastic?
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