Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby ftl » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:43 pm

Lilwik wrote:We can't possibly know that. We never really meet Charlie. All we ever see of him is what he chooses to reveal to the people he communicates with and it would be odd for him to open up to his clients and enemies.


And what he reveals to his own units. We have interviews of decrypted archons, remember.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:07 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:To be fair, Stanley is like a tiny dwagon.

Also Charlie did show empathy in book 1 to Jillian until she started threatening his daughter.

Refresh my memory? I do not remember this.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:40 pm

TheChaplin wrote:Overlords/Rulers(factions) of Erfworld use diplomacy, treachery, war, and elimination of neighbors to attain factional supremacy(which is itself not an inherently evil goal) beyond the scope required for security.
There are three exceptions to this rule: Banhammer(deceased, and an idiot), Tramennis(have yet to see how heavy that crown is), and Charlie.
Charlie uses diplomacy, while not using treachery, war, or elimination to attain factional supremacy. [My personal supposition due to insufficient evidence is that it is probably beyond the scope required for security].
No, Kreistor, you've got it all wrong.

Charlie uses treachery, war, and elimination to attain factional supremacy, just as do other sides. He just does it via proxy, manipulation, and diplomacy, and not with the typical standing army tactics of the other sides. Just remember that diplomacy was defined by Clausewitz as "the continuation of [diplomatic] policy with other means." And while I personally feel that Clausewitz is something of a tool, that doesn't make everything he said or wrote incorrect.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lamech » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:44 pm

Charlie absolutely does it with his standing forces. He planned to do it to GK. He did attack GK with Kingworld. Threatened to do it to Haggar. He hired mercenaries to attack GK forces! Plus he is a mercenary! What do mercs do again? Wage war. Sure often time Charlie wages ware for money instead of territory, but really that's smart. What does territory get you? Resource production. Assets. At diminishing returns. And it increases overhead in terms of defense.

Charlie wants to get his hands on things like the Archons or the Mathamancy Bracer. Ways to produce resources that don't have that diminishing return. Things that don't expand his need for defense. Archons provide their own defense, the bracer gets defended at his capital.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:09 pm

Lamech wrote:Charlie absolutely does it with his standing forces.
Maybe I should have said that he prefers to manipulate others into fulfilling his goals, but that he is willing to use his forces personally if he has to. Or at least he's willing to let others think that he will. But remember that he didn't take GK, and he didn't attack Haggar. And Kingworld (*Ptui!*) cannot be considered to be an attack with conventional forces. And are you counting the Haggar troops that attacked the GK line as being 'hired'? Because if so, they were certainly not hired, they were coerced through the threat of attack, but yet again no actual attack, to do as Charlie said they had to do.

So we've seen Charlie use manipulation, mind games, diplomacy, and coercion. But we've never seen a large force of Charlescomm units attack anyone while not under hire to some other side.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lamech » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:58 am

Oberon wrote:
Lamech wrote:Charlie absolutely does it with his standing forces.
Maybe I should have said that he prefers to manipulate others into fulfilling his goals, but that he is willing to use his forces personally if he has to. Or at least he's willing to let others think that he will. But remember that he didn't take GK, and he didn't attack Haggar. And Kingworld (*Ptui!*) cannot be considered to be an attack with conventional forces. And are you counting the Haggar troops that attacked the GK line as being 'hired'? Because if so, they were certainly not hired, they were coerced through the threat of attack, but yet again no actual attack, to do as Charlie said they had to do.

So we've seen Charlie use manipulation, mind games, diplomacy, and coercion. But we've never seen a large force of Charlescomm units attack anyone while not under hire to some other side.

A nuclear bomb is not an attack through conventional forces. However it is still an attack. Also I was talking about the people he paid a bounty to attack GK's archons. Jetstone? Was a major plot point?

He has repeatedly attacked GK. He prefers to do it via proxy or have someone to blame. "Oh I was just hired out". The only way you can say he doesn't engage in the attacks of other sides is if you add a crapton of qualifiers. "With his own forces, when not being paid, without using superweapons" Seriously you can't say that other sides are responsible when they hire Charlie, but when Charlie hires other sides he is responsible.

Its not his prefered tool, but I don't see it not getting used at all.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:21 am

Except that bounty was only given retroactively, for something they were doing anyway.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby drachefly » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:31 am

Oberon wrote:
TheChaplin wrote:...
No, Kreistor, you've got it all wrong.

...
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Free Radical » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:00 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Except that bounty was only given retroactively, for something they were doing anyway.

They got a retroactive bonus for the first Archon, but Slately decided to kill and capture the rest of them based on that bounty specifically to have enough schmuckers to promote Tramennis to heir. If that wasn't mercenary work, what is?
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:17 am

Lamech wrote:A nuclear bomb is not an attack through conventional forces. However it is still an attack.
Please. The subject of discussion was Charlescomm's use of their forces, independent of any hiring manager, as forces of change in Erfworld. And you're going to cite Kingworld (*Ptui!*)? Really? That took a single hired caster, and Charlie himself. Not conventional forces. So yes, a nuclear bomb isn't an attack using conventional forces. You've made my point for me.
Lamech wrote:Also I was talking about the people he paid a bounty to attack GK's archons. Jetstone? Was a major plot point?
It was a major plot point, but it only supports my point. This is Charlie using others forces to achieve his goals, he didn't attack GKs archons with his own troops, did he?
Lamech wrote:He prefers to do it via proxy or have someone to blame.
I don't need a crapton of qualifiers, you've just agreed to them yourself. Please, read back on what I've said, you might find that we are arguing the same point:
Oberon wrote:So we've seen Charlie use manipulation, mind games, diplomacy, and coercion. But we've never seen a large force of Charlescomm units attack anyone while not under hire to some other side.
Really, point me to the use of Charlescomm units in a mass battle. Please! Because that seems to be our only point of disagreement. We seem to agree that Charlie is well capable of getting others to do his fighting for him, or to be paid to fight for others.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:41 am

Oberon wrote:Kingworld (*Ptui!*)
Ok seriouslly...what is up with this? Not even sure what point you're trying to make by adding the sound effect (if it was supposed to get a laugh, I think that stopped happening after the 10th time you did it), but I'm pretty sure people know what you're talking about just saying "Kingworld", ya know...since that's what the comic and everyone else call it...
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lamech » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:41 pm

I don't think you understand the purpose of running gags, motifs and personas!. If Oberon referred to Kingworld (*ptui*) as something else it would kill the gag, the motif and the persona! That would be double plus bad.

Side note: I shall now reefer to Kingworld (*ptui*) properly from now on!
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:52 am

A gag kinda has to be funny in the first place...I was being extremely generous by suggesting it was that even for the first 10 times. Or at least have a point to it. Like my original post asked, I'm not understanding what he even means by it, so the point (if any) isn't exactly being made.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Tonot » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:12 am

I must put my hand up for an explanation of the Kingworld joke , myself. The only thoughts I can come up with are not the least bit funny, so I am missing something.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:02 am

The onomatopoeia "ptui" is generally associated with the act of spitting. When spitting after the mention of something specific, it indicates contempt or scorn for the said topic.

So, we can surmise that he finds something contemptible about Kingworld. Now, whether he is taking issue to Charlie's use of it, or Rob's, I cannot say.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Scott Frantz » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:57 am

Delurking to chime in that I agree. Spitting on Kingworld's name was marginally funny and characterizing at one point, but it grates my nerves every time I've seen it for the past year or so.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:33 am

I assumed it was some meme or reference that went over my head and wasn't showing up on google, and left it at that. Since it turns out I'm not the only one not getting it, explain the joke please?
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Werebiscuit » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:04 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:I assumed it was some meme or reference that went over my head and wasn't showing up on google, and left it at that. Since it turns out I'm not the only one not getting it, explain the joke please?



no real Joke.. If you search kingworld on the forums you find that the spell bitterly divided opinion as it seemed such an Ass-pull or deus ex machina...or whatever Maybe those aren't even the right way to describe it but it definitely seemed overpowered. Oberon is just showing his contempt of the device. He could equally have said that contemptible kingworld but then it wouldn't have been as remarkable..as evidenced by the last 7-8 posts remarking on it. He's just being extravagant in his contempt, not making any sort of joke. So no running gag..but definitely a running theme, meme motif or whatever.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:39 pm

Really? Sure it was powerful, but from an author perspective Rob clearly had it in the works for ages, Unaroyal was given a Turnamancer far in advance. Plus the fact that it was somewhat implied to be a tri-link, that puts it pretty on par with other tri-links. (At the time it could have been Vanna-Charlie-JoJo, but we now know it's possible Charlie may have supplied the Carnymancy by himself). Dismissing it as a lame/OP/cheap spell just demonstrates a lack of imagination IMO, because the seeds were pretty well placed beforehand. Jetstone's only prayer of success was to prevent Gk from actually entering the city, and the only way they could have done that is either with Jillian helping lead an air battle, or with some creative spell like Kingworld.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby drachefly » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:47 pm

Tri-links just seem overly powerful in themselves, I guess. They're just so much more powerful than 3 casters working independently.
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