Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Werebiscuit » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:19 am

0beron wrote:Really? Sure it was powerful, but from an author perspective Rob clearly had it in the works for ages, Unaroyal was given a Turnamancer far in advance. Plus the fact that it was somewhat implied to be a tri-link, that puts it pretty on par with other tri-links..



From reading at the time it seemed to me that it wasn't the power of the spell people were reacting to more that around that time Charlie seemed to have the answer to every trick that Parson ( the PERFECT Warlord) pulled, as evidence..his archons convincing jillian to break her programming and continue her search eventually finding the column attacking dwagon horde. His archons supplying the dance steps to enable the RCC to dance -fight. The kingworld spell just seemed the culmination of this sequence... which is what i think many objected to.
Now i'm not sure if they objected because Parson, the main protagonist, was getting stymied and they showed their support for him...or if they felt he was being thwarted just for hackneyed reasons. I'm not sure it was just the kingworld spell in and of itself they objected to but that's conjecture on my part and probaly wrong in many individual cases as each will have their own reasons. ( don't really want to open up that debate again )
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby drachefly » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:13 pm

But remember, Charlie didn't condone their unmindwedgying Jillian - that was Jaclyn(?) working on her initiative.

After all, if the dwagon donut had completely succeeded, then the RCC1 would certainly have hired more archons.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:31 pm

0beron wrote:Really? Sure it was powerful, but from an author perspective Rob clearly had it in the works for ages, Unaroyal was given a Turnamancer far in advance.
Plus the Time Warp costume Jillian was wearing. Also it doesn't really seem that powerful since it's a purely defensive spell, and thus requires the caster to be in the hex attacked. Just don't attack the enemy trilink by air, or use way more bombers. Problem solved.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:21 am

Zeroberon wrote:Ok seriously...what is up with this? Not even sure what point you're trying to make by adding the sound effect (if it was supposed to get a laugh, I think that stopped happening after the 10th time you did it), but I'm pretty sure people know what you're talking about just saying "Kingworld", ya know...since that's what the comic and everyone else call it...
You may call it what you wish. I feel the need to every remind people of what a horrible plot object it was.
Lipkin wrote:The onomatopoeia "ptui" is generally associated with the act of spitting. When spitting after the mention of something specific, it indicates contempt or scorn for the said topic.

So, we can surmise that he finds something contemptible about Kingworld. Now, whether he is taking issue to Charlie's use of it, or Rob's, I cannot say.
Lipkin wins the understanding prize. And to qualify, it is Rob's use which I find objectionable. After the entire Book One could be easily characterized as one reversal of fortune after another, I was hoping that Book 2 would be a bit better as the author honed his trade over time. Zeroberon (or anyone else, I care not) may claim that the presence of a turnamancer was the necessary forshadowing, but given that the known powers of turnamancers had never included ending a turn's side I find this to be a weak argument. You wouldn't claim that an ancient army that had always used round shot was justified in suddenly using explosive shells simply because they had an engineer on their staff? I would hope not! A bit more of a reveal is required before this can be called proper foreshadowing, and that reveal did not exist.

Other things I find objectionable are the fact that Kingworld (*Ptui!*) was almost certainly a bi-mancer link comprised of only Vanna and Charlie (since Vanna only specifically mentioned Charlie as being in the link with her), and the fact that Kingworld (*Ptui!*), quite unlike the uncroaking of the volcano which both required a rare terrain feature and which left the GK casters in a dangerous tri-mancer link that required several high level thinkamancers to unravel, is a trivially repeatable effect which will require the deliberate forgetting about an available power. For the remainder of Book 2, and any Book which may follow Book 2, we will get to wonder why this terrifically powerful ability isn't used again and again. Oh, and why don't we see it used in Book 0, and why wasn't it used in Book 1? Since we got no foreshadowing about Charlie figuring out a potent new spell, why should we assume that he hasn't known about it since before the events of Book 0? No reason at all, that's why. So why hasn't he used in in Book 0? Any time ending an enemy turn might be helpful, which is just about every time the enemy in question has a turn, we will get to wonder why Charlie doesn't pull Kingworld (*Ptui!*) out again. And that's just crap for a story's continuity.

Scott Frantz wrote:Delurking to chime in that I agree. Spitting on Kingworld's name was marginally funny and characterizing at one point, but it grates my nerves every time I've seen it for the past year or so.
Good. I am certain it grates no more so on you than any reference to Kingworld (*Ptui!*) grates on me.

Shai_hulud wrote:Also it [Kingworld (*Ptui!*)] doesn't really seem that powerful since it's a purely defensive spell, and thus requires the caster to be in the hex attacked. Just don't attack the enemy trilink by air, or use way more bombers. Problem solved.
Oh, what a sweet answer. The side which never attacks is completely immune to having their turn ended via Kingworld (*Ptui!*). Why didn't I think of that? Oh, right, because it's a puerile suggestion. And try to remember: GK wasn't attacking Jetstone at the time. Combat was not engaged. GK and Jetstone were in a shared battlespace, that's all. So "don't attack by air" or "use more bombers" are equally puerile. There's really nothing to suggest that being attacked is required at all, since no combat was underway at the time it was cast and since neither Charlie nor Vanna were under attack in any event. Charlie wasn't even allied with Jetstone!
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:26 am

There is tons more foreshadowing, you simply aren't imaginative enough to see it. Maybe not blatant enough to see it coming at the time, but in hindsight it becomes plain as day that Rob was planning it that way the whole time. Simple logic confirms this too...the Battle of Spacerock is a major plot point...the author is going to have those broad elements planned out well in advance.

As for the power level of the spell, it is certainly a Tricaster effect. Just because it was only Vanna & Charlie doesn't mean the spell itself wasn't still Turn-Think-Carny effect. See the distinction?

It's also very limited in usefullness. It seems OP because Charlie used it at exactly the right time...but it's not a spell that would necessarily help you every single day. Also keep in mind the cost has not yet been fully revealed. On top of what was clearly a high Juice cost, it may have been paid for in other ways.

All in all, I suppose I can see some validity to your opinion in the first place...but when you look at it now objectively in hindsight, there is absolutely nothing problematic about it from an author/plot perspective. Also, it being a "horrible plot" device isn't a fact you can assert; it's an opinion, and a rather weakly supported one at that. So you're really not "reminding" anyone of anything except your own obstinance.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby drachefly » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:52 am

I would like to double the emphasis on the fact that we still don't know the full cost. I would be a large amount that this is not a 'trivially repeatable effect', even with an unlimited supply of turnamancers, carnymancers, and the arkendish so juice costs are negligible.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Shai_hulud » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:03 pm

Oberon wrote:Why didn't I think of that? Oh, right, because it's a puerile suggestion. And try to remember: GK wasn't attacking Jetstone at the time. Combat was not engaged. GK and Jetstone were in a shared battlespace, that's all. So "don't attack by air" or "use more bombers" are equally puerile. There's really nothing to suggest that being attacked is required at all, since no combat was underway at the time it was cast and since neither Charlie nor Vanna were under attack in any event. Charlie wasn't even allied with Jetstone!

...I meant "attack" in the TBS sense of moving into the contested hex. Which was the requirement for casting off turn according to the characters in comic, and confirmed by Rob IRL. Also, it makes you look like a fool when you call someones statement puerile and then show you don't actually understand the subject. I mean, what the hell does alliance w/ JS even have to do with anything?
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:22 pm

I don't see Kingworld being so problematic as all that. It cost Vanna two turns of juice, so it's not something that could easily be repeated to keep a side on lock down, and even if it could, if that side has an ally, they are free to attack. It wasn't used before book 2 because Charlie didn't have ready access to a Turnamancer, and he didn't have a huge stake in the game. It wasn't until Parson blew up the volcano that Charlie started taking things seriously. Up until that point, he was only contributing as much as he was getting paid. Unaroyal wasn't present at Gobwin Knob, and up until the start of book 1, the RCC was doing a fine job of kicking Stanley's ass. No reason to bust out Kingworld at that point.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Shai_hulud » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:29 pm

You mean Vanna wasn't present. Unaroyal was there, but none of the royal side brought their casters.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby wih » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:52 pm

Was there ever any speculation on the "two turns worth of juice"? Seems odd. Is this something allowed by a link-up, where one caster can consume juice from someone else in the link? Or does she get a "juice-debt" for the next turn? Or have to "save" juice from the previous turn?
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lilwik » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:25 pm

wih wrote:Or does she get a "juice-debt" for the next turn? Or have to "save" juice from the previous turn?
It might also mean that she's been working on casting the spell for two turns, spending all her juice rather than saving it up. We know that she stood there quietly linked with Charlie for a while, apparently doing nothing. Maybe she was really preparing the spell somehow. It certainly increases the cost of the spell if you need to know you're going to want it two turns in advance and you can use your Turnamancer for nothing else until the spell is cast.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:42 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:
Oberon wrote:Why didn't I think of that? Oh, right, because it's a puerile suggestion.

...I meant "attack" in the TBS sense of moving into the contested hex. Which was the requirement for casting off turn according to the characters in comic, and confirmed by Rob IRL. Also, it makes you look like a fool when you call someones statement puerile and then show you don't actually understand the subject. I mean, what the hell does alliance w/ JS even have to do with anything?
It makes you doubly the fool for insinuating that I don't understand the subject when you need to re-qualify your meaning after the fact. Communicate your point more clearly if you want it to be taken in a context that you failed to communicate. Are you claiming that Charlie was in the battlespace? He was where he always was, safe in his capital. How did he get to cast off-turn? I can see an argument that being linked with a caster in a battle space makes him eligible, but that's yet another power Charlie has that no one else has, and despite Zeroberon's assertions, there was no foreshadowing of that capability.

But you really only support my point that Kingworld (*Ptui!*) is overpowered. All that we know that is required is a turnamancer and any contact with any enemy unit. Given that Charlie's entire army is filled with nothing but flying, knight-class units with access to all kinds of spell-like powers, he can fly a turnamancer, invisible/veiled, up to any unit in the field and cast Kingworld (*Ptui!*) while the archons screen or flash mob or dance fight or do any number of other things to keep the turnamancer safe during the casting.

Lipkin wrote:I don't see Kingworld being so problematic as all that. It cost Vanna two turns of juice, so it's not something that could easily be repeated to keep a side on lock down, and even if it could, if that side has an ally, they are free to attack.
First off, Vanna really can't have two turns of juice, can she? Or maybe we'd have seen some other caster go "Well, I'm out of juice, so I'll just spend next turn's juice so I can keep fighting." So we really don't know what was meant by that statement, do we? Secondly, GK has no allies, and we've seen that Charlie is pretty damn good at subverting other sides and natural allies with a high probability that GKs lack of gobwins are his responsibility, so your point about allies being able to attack may be accurate but it is not relevant, since those allies do not exist.

Lipkin wrote:It wasn't used before book 2 because Charlie didn't have ready access to a Turnamancer, and he didn't have a huge stake in the game. It wasn't until Parson blew up the volcano that Charlie started taking things seriously. Up until that point, he was only contributing as much as he was getting paid. Unaroyal wasn't present at Gobwin Knob, and up until the start of book 1, the RCC was doing a fine job of kicking Stanley's ass. No reason to bust out Kingworld at that point.
More invented reasons not to use the nuke...

1) Charlie is a well respected employer with a great reputation in the MK. Claiming he doesn't have ready access to a turnamancer is an invention.

2) Charlie is known to hire turnamancers just to increase archon production.

So the myth that Charlie doesn't have ready access to a turnamancer is well and truly busted by several points within the canon.

A) Charlie didn't have a huge stake in the game? More invention. He may have been milking Jetstone for all they were worth, but we know that he wanted Parson, Parson's mathamancy bracer, and the archenpliers.

Are you really going to call the "perfect warlord", an artifact class magic item, and a tool of the titans a low stakes pot that isn't worth casting a simple spell to get? Really?

And your conclusion "no reason to bust out Kingworld (Ptui!*)" is so easily countered: Why not bust it out? It's the perfect weapon with no known drawbacks. Bi-mancer links aren't nearly as dangerous as tri-mancer links, and if the hired turnamancer mutters something about spending two turns worth of juice, who cares? It's her juice, and that's what she was hired to do.

I keep repeating the lack of known drawbacks because I see some people have speculated that it must have drawbacks. I see this as support for my position that Kingworld (*Ptui!*) is overpowered, or no one would need to invent drawbacks that make it more reasonable or limited. Well if so, let them be known to us, or accept that Kingworld (*Ptui!*) is vastly overpowered until such time as these phantom drawbacks are revealed.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Sir Shadow » Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:13 pm

I'd just like to point out that it likely was a tri-caster link. With Charlie, being a Carnymancer, and the 'dish acting as the 'thinkamancer' linking the two. It might be speculation, but it's highly probably speculation.

Another thing, Archon's are =/= mounts. There's no indication that a unit with flight that is not a mount can take a unit from one hex to another while flying, and from what Jillian implied when she and TV tried to cut off Stanley, I would be willing to say that it can't. I'm just pointing that out, that's not to say Charlie couldn't acquire a mount from somewhere else.

Most things that Tricaster links do seem rather overpowered, Wanda/Sizemore took out a rather immense army with one spell. There must be limiting factors--not necessarily drawbacks, since few spells are seen to have direct drawbacks--on its use, or it would likely see much more widespread practice.

EDIT: Also, on Vanna saying it was like 2 turns worth of juice? Charlie and Her Juice were likely pooled while in the link, so due to the cost of the spell, it certainly seemed like 2 turns worth of her juice if she were the only one contributing. That right there might be a limiting factor, just the pure cost of casting it, such that few sides have the Carnymancer and Turnamancer with a high enough level available with enough pooled Juice to do it.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lilwik » Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:21 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:Also, on Vanna saying it was like 2 turns worth of juice? Charlie and Her Juice were likely pooled while in the link, so due to the cost of the spell, it certainly seemed like 2 turns worth of her juice if she were the only one contributing.
That would be a strange way of saying it. For reference, Vanna said it in Book 2, Page 22.

Jillian: "How's your juice?"
Vanna: "Low. That spell cost two turns' worth, basically."

Jillian was asking about Vanna's juice, not Charlie's juice. If Vanna was talking about juice other than her own juice, then Vanna was being strangely misleading. On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if the clarify and focus that comes with being linked creates an effective increase in juice. Maybe she was able to use more juice than she should have had just because she was linked. If that's the way it works, then part of being linked is that the Thinkamancer is spending juice to increase the juice of the other casters, which one might say is effectively pooling juice, but it seems that Vanna doesn't think of it that way.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:45 pm

Oberon wrote:
Lipkin wrote:I don't see Kingworld being so problematic as all that. It cost Vanna two turns of juice, so it's not something that could easily be repeated to keep a side on lock down, and even if it could, if that side has an ally, they are free to attack.
First off, Vanna really can't have two turns of juice, can she? Or maybe we'd have seen some other caster go "Well, I'm out of juice, so I'll just spend next turn's juice so I can keep fighting." So we really don't know what was meant by that statement, do we? Secondly, GK has no allies, and we've seen that Charlie is pretty damn good at subverting other sides and natural allies with a high probability that GKs lack of gobwins are his responsibility, so your point about allies being able to attack may be accurate but it is not relevant, since those allies do not exist.

Lipkin wrote:It wasn't used before book 2 because Charlie didn't have ready access to a Turnamancer, and he didn't have a huge stake in the game. It wasn't until Parson blew up the volcano that Charlie started taking things seriously. Up until that point, he was only contributing as much as he was getting paid. Unaroyal wasn't present at Gobwin Knob, and up until the start of book 1, the RCC was doing a fine job of kicking Stanley's ass. No reason to bust out Kingworld at that point.
More invented reasons not to use the nuke...

1) Charlie is a well respected employer with a great reputation in the MK. Claiming he doesn't have ready access to a turnamancer is an invention.

2) Charlie is known to hire turnamancers just to increase archon production.

So the myth that Charlie doesn't have ready access to a turnamancer is well and truly busted by several points within the canon.

A) Charlie didn't have a huge stake in the game? More invention. He may have been milking Jetstone for all they were worth, but we know that he wanted Parson, Parson's mathamancy bracer, and the archenpliers.

Are you really going to call the "perfect warlord", an artifact class magic item, and a tool of the titans a low stakes pot that isn't worth casting a simple spell to get? Really?

And your conclusion "no reason to bust out Kingworld (Ptui!*)" is so easily countered: Why not bust it out? It's the perfect weapon with no known drawbacks. Bi-mancer links aren't nearly as dangerous as tri-mancer links, and if the hired turnamancer mutters something about spending two turns worth of juice, who cares? It's her juice, and that's what she was hired to do.

I keep repeating the lack of known drawbacks because I see some people have speculated that it must have drawbacks. I see this as support for my position that Kingworld (*Ptui!*) is overpowered, or no one would need to invent drawbacks that make it more reasonable or limited. Well if so, let them be known to us, or accept that Kingworld (*Ptui!*) is vastly overpowered until such time as these phantom drawbacks are revealed.
All I know is what Vanna said, and what she said is that it cost two turns of juice. Whatever that means, it sounds like a high price, and not quickly repeatable. And while GK currently has no allies, it's a large side that could easily spin off to counteract a future attempt at Kingworld.

As for your other stuff...

Book 1 took place over only a couple turns. Charlie didn't have ready access to a Turnamancer at that location. He could not use Kingworld in book 1. And no, he didn't have a huge stake in the game. He knew Parson was clever, but I don't think he knew he was a summoned perfect warlord. If he had, he wouldn't have been underestimating Parson that entire book. And for all of book 1, Charlie thought Parson was doomed. First he thought Jetstone had it in the bag, then when told otherwise, he brought enough Archons to take GK himself. At no point did he think Parson had any chance at victory.

But the biggest reason not to cast it is that no one knows he can cast it. Why cast it when he thinks he has already won? No reason to tip his hand.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:30 am

I think he would have known Parson was likely a summoned warlord since he could read the Klog. It seems more likely that he was trying to impress Parson. He knows perfect Warlords can leave, and repeatedly tries to give Parson a way out in both books.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:40 am

We've yet to see it confirmed he could read the Klogs. Parson is worried about it and taking precautions, but Charlie hasn't mentioned anything he could only have known from there.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:30 am

Fair enough.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Werebiscuit » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:12 am

Werebiscuit wrote: ( don't really want to open up that debate again )


Oh crap... !
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby spriteless » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:44 am

Kingworld is OP, but it is OK since it requires 3 casters (or 2 and a dish), meant Charlie and Vanna couldn't do anything else that morning (and maybe the day before) because they were linked, and it wouldn't have been useful at all if GK hadn't parked their attack force in the airspace. Being linked is a huge cost for someone with his thumb in every pie in Erfworld. For all we know it was a 4 school link, turn, think, and carnie, certainly; and perhaps date or change as well. But a cost like that, which is not mentioned by the story, is not important to the narrative until it is brought up; perhaps Charley will mention why he won't do it again, making it more believable.

Parking your attack force in the airspace is OP because no one can hit you except wimpy archers, and you can attack enemies at your discretion. (Bomb the leadership with yellow crap!) Specific counters like Kingworld change it from OP to high-risk/high-reward. It is the best kind of nerf, where everyone else gets power-creep to keep up!

That is the thing about this comic. The sudden reversals that make up the plot have a tempo like someone writing rules for a game, then adding to the rules to make it more fair by punishing the winning strategy. It is vindictive rules lawyer Calvinball. You must see the world as a game-in-progress, as well as the little people implied to exist by the rules. Parson was creating his game near the start of book 1; it is by design that the comic reads like an incomplete game plays.

What I am saying, is I expect the sudden reversals to continue as long as Parson keeps finding exploits that need a nerf-hammer.
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