Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:14 pm

Lipkin wrote:Book 1 took place over only a couple turns. Charlie didn't have ready access to a Turnamancer at that location.
More of this invented "ready access" limitation. Charlie was able to fly 80-odd archons to GK. What possible contrived reason can you give for why he can't have gotten a thinkamancer there as well?

Lipkin"He could not use Kingworld in book 1.[/quote]You can keep repeating it, but you haven't supported your repetition with any reasons which are not completely bogus and easily dismissed. You're grasping at straws, and you have to invent limitations which simply do not exist to try to support your point of view. It's a shaky house of cards, and I'm the wind.


[quote="Lipkin"And no, he didn't have a huge stake in the game.[/quote]80-odd archons, Parson, an artifact class magic item, and a tool of the titans is a small stake? You keep repeating that, but anyone with a mind who counts the value can see that it is quite large, on the order of priceless. There are only 3 known archentools, after all. We don't know how many artifact class magic items there are, but Sizemore estimated it's value at 500,000 schmuckers to the right buyer. Charlie was willing to trade heavily for just 12 calculations. And the owner can apparently use it as often as they like.

[quote="Lipkin wrote:
But the biggest reason not to cast it is that no one knows he can cast it. Why cast it when he thinks he has already won? No reason to tip his hand.
Yet another nigh worthless grasp for some rationale. How often has bringing a knife to a gun fight worked out? Charlie is supposed to be the guy who never plays a game that he can't win. And Kingworld (*Ptui!*) is a game breaking way to win almost every time it is used. So "no one knows I brought a gun to this knife fight" is a pretty crappy reason to keep the gun in the holster.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:14 pm

Oberon wrote:snip

1. I assume you mean Turnamancer.
2. Archons are not mounts and could not have flown a caster to the battlefield.
3. Relays were Parson's invention.


And you apparently don't know what a stake is. Charlie's stake is what he invested into the fight, not what he stood to gain. So, his stake was the Archons, which is relatively minimal. And he stood to gain Parson and his artifact in Jetstone's new contract. Before Parson changed the game on him, Charlie was not the type to give freebies. You get what you paid for, and Jetstone did not pay for a turn ending link.

Why should Charlie pay to hire a Turnamancer when he can just muster his archons and take GK by force? Why should he take GK by force when he can wait for GK and JS to duke it out and take out the winner? Charlie isn't the overkill type. He wasn't going to use Kingworld until he wanted something enough, and didn't have other ways to get it. And now, if another side wants to hire him for Kingworld, it's going to cost an arm and a leg. If he wants to do it again, he better hope he can win the fight in a turn, because he isn't going to be able to quickly cast it again.

Whether you agree with the case or not, I just wish you would stop spitting on Kingworld's name. It's insulting to Rob, the comic, and seeing as how so many of us here love the work, to us as well. You've made your point that you do not like Kingworld, now drop it.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:29 pm

Lipkin wrote:[Stop] spitting on Kingworld's name. It's insulting to Rob [and] the comic.
^THIS. This x1000. More to the point, insisting that it is some fact we are all to blind to, rather than the opinion that it actually is. You keep pressing US for evidence, but fail to offer anything conclusive of your own....because fact is the comic doesn't give you any, if anything it hints at us being right. When you get right down to it, Charlie hasn't used it before, so something about it is novel and "costly". Whether that's the Juice, a Carnymancy cost, the risk of having a caster in the hex, or simply divulging his "intellectual property", there is a reason it hasn't/can't be done consistently. In fact...it REALLY isn't that strong of a spell compared to other links:
  • Volcano: Rocks fall, everyone dies, no saving throw, OMGWTFBBQ
  • Eyemancer: Flawless intelligence over a huge swath of terrain.
  • I Dream of Poppies: Indefinite supply of addicting substance.
  • Deal of a Lifetme: Far-reaching magical contract that only death can cheat.
  • Kingworld: Ended a turn...leaving both sides with exactly the same number of troops, and the side casting it still lost.
Kingworld really did very little to alter the playing field all things considered, especially compared to other links. Jetstone was still at a disadvantage without Jillian, and even without Parson's Picnic, if Jetstone had fired on GK, corpses woulda fallen anyway and then been Decrypted, so same result. Kingworld had shock factor, and put Jetstone in a position to better leverage it's assets....but it did nothing to actually change what those assets were, the way other game-changing links have.

So point being; it's not as OP as it looks, and whatever the limiting constraint may be there obviously is one. Continuing to insist otherwise is indeed an insult to Rob, and a misrepresentation of your own intelligence.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lamech » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:24 am

Kingworld (*ptui*) has numerous possible limitations, some we have more confirmation of than others.
1) It takes three disciplines in addition to the dish. Charlie might have had a changeamancer or a weirdamancer or whatever added up. It might be a dish only item.
2) Charge time: Charlie was linked up since the day before.
3) Can't be cast "off-turn": Or as I like to say, can only be cast in an active hex. Normally casters can only cast spell if there is a on-turn unit in their hex. There are some exceptions, but we don't know if Kingworld is one.
4) Juice Cost: It left Vanna with low Juice. Charlie probably got low Juice too. So you would cast on turn one, wait for juice to return on turn two, and start getting ready, and cast on turn three.
5) Difficulty: Charlie is very old and probably has at least a master class, high level and possibly with other classes in addition. Vanna was on top of a tower adding that boost. And it might have had a chance to fail on top of that.
6) Not using the Dish: Charlie gets most of his money from telecom and he can normally listen into and block thinkamancy. If he is tied up in a link, not so much.
7) Cast time: The spell didn't seem quick. Without fortifications a lucky arrow or archon blast might have a decent chance of croaking the caster and backlashing someone else in the link. Furthermore it means a decent chunk of forces can get into the hex.
8) It risks the casters in the link. Yes, the Dish probably circumvents this issue.

So Kingworld (*Ptui*), is a good spell, but it could: be Charlie only, requires prep from the turn before, needs a caster in a hex the enemy will enter, risks a second caster, and eats up a crapton of Charlie's money. Most problematically for Kingworld had GK had advanced warning they could have just landed on the walls, and burned ever notably even when it was a surprise with near perfect set up Kingworld (*ptui*) was vastly inferior to the volcano tri-link. Worse had the dwagons landed inside the city instead of floating in the air the whole thing would have been blown.

Ultimately it doesn't measure up to the other tri-link+arkentool tricks. Notably, it pales in comparison to Summon Perfect Warlord+arkenpliers. It fought Perfect Warlord +arkenpliers and lost.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:54 am

Lipkin wrote:1. I assume you mean Turnamancer.
2. Archons are not mounts and could not have flown a caster to the battlefield.
3. Relays were Parson's invention.

1. Yes.
2. Those archons came with nets to transport Parson, a heavy garrison unit, back to Charlescomm. So, try again on how they can't carry a non-heavy, non-garrison caster unit.
3. The archons certainly didn't relay there, so why would you even suggest that the caster need to relay there? You seem just bound and determined to come up with something, anything, no matter how irrelevant it might be, just to avoid admitting that Kingworld (*Ptui!*), for all we really know about it, is seriously overpowered.

Lipkin wrote:And you apparently don't know what a stake is. Charlie's stake is what he invested into the fight, not what he stood to gain.
Touche. But the stake is measured against the pot. So it all does matter in the end.

As to most of the rest of your post, all of your "whys" are easily countered with a "why not?" I've said it before: Charlie often hires turnamancers just to increase archon production, so what's the big cost involved when weighted again the pot? Utterly trivial!

But this requires some extra attention:
Lipkin wrote:It's insulting to Rob, the comic, and seeing as how so many of us here love the work, to us as well. You've made your point that you do not like Kingworld, now drop it.
You drop it. Yeah, your puerile comment did warrant that kind of a response. Neener, neener!

I'll hold and express any opinion I like, thank you very much. If you want the debate to go away, stop debating it! And I doubt you're a mind reader, so I find it laughable that you have decided that you know the mind of the author or of any of the other forum readers who haven't expressed their opinions themselves. And insulting to the comic? Now you speak for the thoughts of inanimate objects as well as other people? Your parents must be so proud!
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:06 am

Yo dude. Don't be a dick.

The net is for capturing, not transport. It's highly unlikely that a merc caster would allow themselves to be captured by Charlie. The archons were rallied from the surrounding area. They didn't need to come through from the magic kingdom, which a merc would. To get a merc caster into the area, Charlie would need to convince the ruler of the nearest allied capitol to let a caster through, convince that caster to let an archon capture them, then get that caster all the way to Gobwin Knob, without expending move. No, yeah, sure. That's a way easier and simpler strategy then just overrunning the capitol with high powered flying knights.
Last edited by Lipkin on Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:12 am

Zeroberon wrote:You keep pressing US for evidence, but fail to offer anything conclusive of your own....because fact is the comic doesn't give you any, if anything it hints at us being right. When you get right down to it, Charlie hasn't used it before, so something about it is novel and "costly".
And I've allowed that limitations may be revealed in the future which will make it clear why Charlie doesn't use Kingworld (*Ptui!*) more often.

But a lot of time and comics have passed, and I'd suspect that any reveals on Kingworld (*Ptui!*) may be retconjuration. Which wouldn't make them bad, and in fact if my pointing out on the forums that Kingworld (*Ptui!*) is overpowered and has no real limitations which prevent it from being spammed brings about such retconjuration I'd be tickled.

On the other hand, you're not seriously suggesting that no author has ever introduced a power/ability/spell/ whatever you want to call it into a story without missing the implications of that power, are you? There is a trope about this which I've linked before that is chock full of examples, so that can't be it, can it? Unless you're claiming that Rob is flawless and that all those other authors who missed the implications of some power their characters used, well, they just suck. No, that can't be it.

Zeroberon wrote:Kingworld really did very little to alter the playing field all things considered, especially compared to other links. Jetstone was still at a disadvantage without Jillian, and even without Parson's Picnic, if Jetstone had fired on GK, corpses woulda fallen anyway and then been Decrypted, so same result.
You really must try to get your facts right. There was nothing that was going to achieve the "same result." If that was true then Parson would have gone with that plan instead of risking Wanda and Jack on the chance of a death by fall. The best plan before Parson's was Jack suggesting that Wanda decrypt the dragons and mounts as they fell, effectively doubling their damage absorption. And that wasn't a plan which was thought to be any kind of a sure thing. And remember that Wanda was in the air zone, and could not decrypt any unit what hit the courtyard. So no guarantee that she gets every falling unit anyway, unless the 'pliers can spam decryption so fast that falling doesn't matter. And no Jetstone units could have been decrypted, no matter how many they killed, because again off-turn and in the air zone and can't cast to the tower or courtyard or wall. So Jack's plan was just a delaying tactic that hopes to run Jetstone out of arrows and spells, and survive to the next turn with whatever remained alive.

Lipkin wrote:Yo dude. Don't be a dick.

The net is for capturing, not transport. It's highly unlikely that a merc caster would allow themselves to be captured by Charlie.
Yo, dude, don't be a dick. You have no idea what the capabilities of the net are, do you? You just like making shit up and presenting it as evidence. Show me the comic which explains that the net can only be used to transport a captured unit. Show me the comic which explains that the archons were rallied from the surrounding area, and none of them came from Charlescomm. Or STFU and don't call me a dick!
Last edited by Oberon on Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Free Radical » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:18 am

Oberon wrote:The archons certainly didn't relay there, so why would you even suggest that the caster need to relay there?

Charlie is noted to keep archons "near hot spots, ready to be hired". He managed to gather 30-odd archons that were within a day's flight from Gobwin Knob, but that doesn't at all imply he had a hired Turnamancer within a day's flight of Gobwin Knob.

I'm not entirely clear on what you think Kingworld would have benefitted at the battle for Gobwin Knob either - after Charlie entered the battle, all of Parson's victories were within the city of Gobwin Knob, and the final battle was on the coalition's turn. If they had been prepared to have a Turnamancer in the tunnels to end Gobwin Knob's turn, they would have had to have expected Parson to do something during his turn, in which case they would simply not have put anything in the tunnels until their own next turn started.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:24 am

Free Radical wrote:Charlie is noted to keep archons "near hot spots, ready to be hired".
You're absolutely right. But that isn't evidence that all the archons just happened to be flying around GK, either. Archons appear to have, in addition to their myriad other powers, a hefty flight range. Flying units ignore terrain penalties, first off, and the archons appear to have a high amount of movement as well. Very early in Book 1 we see the three angles archons in the mountains, and then *bam!* they are with Jillian in the forest. Charlie's capital is in the mountains, too. This isn't proof that those archons were near Charlie's capital, but there's no evidence to the contrary either.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:36 am

Oberon wrote:You drop it. Yeah, your puerile comment did warrant that kind of a response. Neener, neener!

I'll hold and express any opinion I like, thank you very much. If you want the debate to go away, stop debating it! And I doubt you're a mind reader, so I find it laughable that you have decided that you know the mind of the author or of any of the other forum readers who haven't expressed their opinions themselves. And insulting to the comic? Now you speak for the thoughts of inanimate objects as well as other people? Your parents must be so proud!



Oberon wrote:Yo, dude, don't be a dick. You have no idea what the capabilities of the net are, do you? You just like making shit up and presenting it as evidence. Show me the comic which explains that the net can only be used to transport a captured unit. Or STFU and don't call me a dick!

You're being a dick. That right there? Dickish.

We know that capturing has it's own rules. It goes to figure that devices that trigger the capturing mechanics would not be used for transport. The only other instance that we have seen of a non-mount flyer carrying a non-flying unit was Stanley carrying Jack, and that didn't actually happen. But when the TV/Faq force saw them supposedly fly up, they seemed to think they would not be able to travel far in such a way.




But none of that matters. There was no need to cast Kingworld in Book 1. Gobwin Knob was on the ropes the entire battle, until Parson pulled a volcano out of his ass. Jetstone was paying Charlie for certain services, and paying quite heavily for them. They couldn't have afforded King World even if they could have cast it, which they couldn't, without a great deal of hassle, which incidentally raises the price further. Charlie knows they can't afford it, so he doesn't offer it, or let them know that he has the capability. And as for why it can't be spammed, you already have you answer, you just have disregarded it for no apparent reason. Vanna says the spell basically took two turns of juice. We don't know what that means, but we do know that she indicated it took it's toll. You claim it can't be, because otherwise casters would dip into tomorrow's juice, but that's ignoring that Vanna was linked with a Carny. Breaking rules is what they do. Instead of ignoring what she said, because we haven't heard of anything like it, maybe look at what could have caused her situation to be unique. Taking her statement at face value, she won't be able to do much the following turn, much less the same gigantic spell that just cost her so much in the first place.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Free Radical » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:43 am

Oberon wrote:Archons appear to have, in addition to their myriad other powers, a hefty flight range. Flying units ignore terrain penalties, first off, and the archons appear to have a high amount of movement as well. Very early in Book 1 we see the three angles archons in the mountains, and then *bam!* they are with Jillian in the forest. Charlie's capital is in the mountains, too. This isn't proof that those archons were near Charlie's capital, but there's no evidence to the contrary either.

If Charlie's capital is within a single turn's flight of Gobwin Knob, how screwed are Gobwin Knob right now? Charlie apparently keeps 120 archons there as his standard defence, and 30-odd were enough to take Gobwin Knob's garrison in Book 1. If he could fly them all there in one turn and back the next (knowing nobody is close enough with a big enough force to take on the 700 or so golems he keeps there), why would he not try to end Gobwin Knob as a side on his next turn?

In addition, Faq's capital is according to Parson the closest to Gobwin Knob at the moment, and that was two turns' flight from Gobwin Knob by dwagon.

Parson also calculated move for fliers crossing mountains and high mountains as two and three move respectively. In the same update, he implied that archons have less move than dwagons - "So we don't send you. We send Archons. Every turn, we send out all the Archons and scout all the hexes you can get to and return. Or maybe just the ones they can get to and return. Safer that way."
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lilwik » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:46 am

Oberon wrote:On the other hand, you're not seriously suggesting that no author has ever introduced a power/ability/spell/ whatever you want to call it into a story without missing the implications of that power, are you? There is a trope about this which I've linked before that is chock full of examples, so that can't be it, can it? Unless you're claiming that Rob is flawless and that all those other authors who missed the implications of some power their characters used, well, they just suck. No, that can't be it.
Rob probably isn't flawless. It's hard to know for sure since he hasn't revealed any flaws yet, but at least we can say with confidence that he is far, far better than an average author. I don't really know all those other authors who fell into the Forgot About His Powers trope, but maybe they're not quite so far above average. I certainly would never jump to the conclusion that Rob might use that trope just because there exist authors who sometimes use it. Rob is likely to be better than those authors.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Werebiscuit » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:55 am

Still not sure about kingworld myself but I think Lamech may have the answer to the "two turns worth of juice" conundrum ( note the second reason -#5- especially the bolded part)

Lamech wrote: *snip* ...4) Juice Cost: It left Vanna with low Juice. Charlie probably got low Juice too. So you would cast on turn one, wait for juice to return on turn two, and start getting ready, and cast on turn three.
5) Difficulty: Charlie is very old and probably has at least a master class, high level and possibly with other classes in addition. Vanna was on top of a tower adding that boost....


I don't know if it's canon but in several of the erf-style games on forum we had casters able to charge the tower with juice to power spells (as far as i remember from the comic casters were able to charge the tower with spells but not sure if that also includes juice). Had Vanna prevoiusly charged the tower on another turn until depletion and then used it and her own juice to depletion during the kingworld turn it would make sense of her "Low. That spell cost two turns' worth, basically." statement ..and consequently provide the limitation that 2 turns of juice can only be spent at a tower that you've previously charged.
meaning kingworld is a tower only spell... not as limiting as volcano only but certainly not useable in anything but city defence.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:12 am

Werebiscuit wrote:Still not sure about kingworld myself but I think Lamech may have the answer to the "two turns worth of juice" conundrum ( note the second reason -#5- especially the bolded part)

Lamech wrote: *snip* ...4) Juice Cost: It left Vanna with low Juice. Charlie probably got low Juice too. So you would cast on turn one, wait for juice to return on turn two, and start getting ready, and cast on turn three.
5) Difficulty: Charlie is very old and probably has at least a master class, high level and possibly with other classes in addition. Vanna was on top of a tower adding that boost....


I don't know if it's canon but in several of the erf-style games on forum we had casters able to charge the tower with juice to power spells (as far as i remember from the comic casters were able to charge the tower with spells but not sure if that also includes juice). Had Vanna prevoiusly charged the tower on another turn until depletion and then used it and her own juice to depletion during the kingworld turn it would make sense of her "Low. That spell cost two turns' worth, basically." statement ..and consequently provide the limitation that 2 turns of juice can only be spent at a tower that you've previously charged.
meaning kingworld is a tower only spell... not as limiting as volcano only but certainly not useable in anything but city defence.

That is a good theory. The pieces fit.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Sir Shadow » Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:30 am

What Oberon seems to be taking for granted is that Charlie does not have a turnamancer nor did he know he was going to need one at GK. Charlie is not presented as a very wealthy side and who knows what a MK turnamancer would charge for being transported so far, let alone entering a trimancer link, something I imagine most barbarian casters are not willing to do very willingly. Vanna was likely more willing due to a desire for revenge.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Werebiscuit » Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:58 am

Lipkin wrote:
Werebiscuit wrote:I don't know if it's canon *snip* ..and consequently provide the limitation that 2 turns of juice can only be spent at a tower that you've previously charged.
meaning kingworld is a tower only spell... not as limiting as volcano only but certainly not useable in anything but city defence.

That is a good theory. The pieces fit.


Thanks ! It fit's in other ways too as we've not seen Charlie called to defend a city so it also explains his non-use of the spell previously. Let's hope it enables us to move on from the kingworld debate ...eventually.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby drachefly » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:16 am

I think the obvious solution to 'two turns of juice' is that she started casting this the previous turn. No time travel or juice debt is necessary.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:21 am

I'd also like to point out that we don't KNOW the net would have worked to carry Parson. Charlie could have been using Parson as a guinea pig for testing that, or it could have been a trick the whole time and he planned for Parson to croak by fall. The only other time we've seen a net in action, it was being carried by a proper Mount, and it was a (presumably) Light unit. So even if an MK Caster would agree to being "captured" and carried a vast distance in the first place, it might not actually be a viable strategy after all.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:26 am

Oberon wrote:This isn't proof that those archons were near Charlie's capital, but there's no evidence to the contrary either.
Actually, there is, albiet infered. Nobody knows where Charlescomm City is, but it can't be within a single turn's Move of GK City, otherwise it'd have been spotted by now. So while the location is yet unknown, positing that it is that close to the current conflict stretches credulity.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:37 pm

Lipkin wrote:You're being a dick.
No, you're being a dick.

All you've got is your own speculations and inventions. You have to use qualifiers such as "it goes to figure", and that when you don't just spout your invented "facts" which have no support in the comic as being canon.

That right there? Dickish (*Ptui!*).
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