Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:21 am

Tonot wrote:
Lipkin wrote:My point is that I don't doubt that they could croak themselves out of protest, but I don't know how effective that would be.

I had not actually considered that additional point, you are right, if they felt that strongly about it they could protest by starving themselves.

I meant, Sizemore is angry and against the Magic Kingdom being a battleground, yet at some point he chose* to be a soldier.
If he was really against war.
If he really thinks the MK deserves being protected against fighting.
Then choosing to be a fighter, anywhere in Erfworld, is WRONG.

Blowing a person up here, alright, and there, somehow wrong?.
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
( *This if he was ever made "free" by being sent to the MK by his "popped" ruler of course, if he was always from popping a member of GK then he is just kind of stuck under Duty like a stabber )

I don't think Sizemore has ever claimed that killing people is ok. He never wanted to do so. He was never happy about doing so. Sizemore didn't choose to be a soldier. The default for Erf is to be involved in war. He has to choose not to be a soldier, and he hasn't done that yet. And if he does choose to do so, he could be disbanded for disobeying orders. The excuse of "just following orders" has more weight when there is an actual compulsion to do so programed into the person in question.

I think Sizemore believes that taking lives anyplace is wrong. But The Magic Kingdom was the one place he had to get away from everything. It's not that he thinks it should be kept free from violence. It's that he doesn't want to be involved with violence at all, and now there is no escape. He's been burying his head in the sand in the Magic Kingdom up until now, and that option was just torn away from him. He doesn't have anywhere to run from reality anymore. He knows he now has no choice but to be a soldier, or die.

Edit: To address your last point. I think Sizemore popped at Gobwin Knob, because he shares Signamancy with Stanley.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lilwik » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:30 am

Lipkin wrote:Well, we have seen that Stabbers are basically programmed to be single minded in their purpose of stabbing. So the desires of the units is immaterial when they assign those desires as well.
We've seen Wrigley was like that (Summer Update 34), and I expect that units are rarely popped that are totally unsuited to their positions, so Wrigley is probably normal, but we know that it's not universal. These units are human and therefore they don't necessarily conform to the roles they are given. Just consider Book 2, Text 55, a wonderful illustration of just how varied and human all these units really can be. There's Mary Sagittari who wishes to be more than what she is, but even more striking is Count Topotato who is surely far from what a warlord is supposed to be.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lamech » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:46 am

Sizemore, and casters in general, do have the power to decide not to participate in war. They can flee to the MK and go barbarian. Sizemore claims to be against GK, but he doesn't have the will to actually leave them.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:04 am

Lamech wrote:Sizemore, and casters in general, do have the power to decide not to participate in war. They can flee to the MK and go barbarian. Sizemore claims to be against GK, but he doesn't have the will to actually leave them.
No....they don't, no more so than anyone else. Commanders have some latitude about Obedience, but they are still bound by Duty. I am hard pressed to see any argument a caster could make that somehow justifies going AWOL as serving the best interest of the Side. Only Rulers are truly free to abstain from fighting, and thus allowing their subjects to do the same.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:24 am

Lipkin wrote:My point is that I don't doubt that they could croak themselves out of protest, but I don't know how effective that would be.
It worked for Queen Bea.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:27 am

Shai_hulud wrote:
Lipkin wrote:My point is that I don't doubt that they could croak themselves out of protest, but I don't know how effective that would be.
It worked for Queen Bea.
I've lost track of this discussion and can't find who "They" is. If it is referring to Casters already Barbarian, than yeah sure they could suicide. But otherwise, see my point above. Worked for Bea cus she's a Ruler and thus free. Nobody else enjoys that luxury besides Barbarians.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:42 am

0beron wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:
Lipkin wrote:My point is that I don't doubt that they could croak themselves out of protest, but I don't know how effective that would be.
It worked for Queen Bea.
I've lost track of this discussion and can't find who "They" is. If it is referring to Casters already Barbarian, than yeah sure they could suicide. But otherwise, see my point above. Worked for Bea cus she's a Ruler and thus free. Nobody else enjoys that luxury besides Barbarians.

What he said. Also, that wasn't protest of war. That was a murder suicide that prevented the forces of Unaroyal from being decrypted. And if it was protest, it didn't work for Bea. Yes, she killed herself and the entire side. What did it accomplish besides depriving GK of troops? Nothing. Nothing changed.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lamech » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:56 am

0beron wrote:
Lamech wrote:Sizemore, and casters in general, do have the power to decide not to participate in war. They can flee to the MK and go barbarian. Sizemore claims to be against GK, but he doesn't have the will to actually leave them.
No....they don't, no more so than anyone else. Commanders have some latitude about Obedience, but they are still bound by Duty. I am hard pressed to see any argument a caster could make that somehow justifies going AWOL as serving the best interest of the Side. Only Rulers are truly free to abstain from fighting, and thus allowing their subjects to do the same.

Most units would face big repercussions if they went Barbarian, but its generally possible. See Parson talk to Charlie. Casters however, at least casters that are allow to wander through the MK, can do so without revenge. Yes, it would violate duty, but units can turn. Bloody hell units can outright turn to an enemy side! Case in point: Ossomer.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:06 pm

Lamech wrote:Most units would face big repercussions if they went Barbarian, but its generally possible. See Parson talk to Charlie. Casters however, at least casters that are allow to wander through the MK, can do so without revenge. Yes, it would violate duty, but units can turn. Bloody hell units can outright turn to an enemy side! Case in point: Ossomer.
Not really....you're assuming the rule from the exceptions. Units need extremely strong motivation to turn, and also note that isn't the same as going Barbarian. When turning, you are being enticed by some kind of offer, a new side to serve. Ossomer turned BACK to his original side, after experiencing an unprecedented magical process. Parson is asked to turn because he's unique and a lateral thinker...however notice that he still declines. Normal units besides these two wouldn't even be capable of considering Turning because of Duty. The problem isn't the repercusions, the problem is having the idea in the first place and justifying it.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:20 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Well, we have seen that Stabbers are basically programmed to be single minded in their purpose of stabbing. So the desires of the units is immaterial when they assign those desires as well.
We've seen Wrigley was like that (Summer Update 34), and I expect that units are rarely popped that are totally unsuited to their positions, so Wrigley is probably normal, but we know that it's not universal. These units are human and therefore they don't necessarily conform to the roles they are given. Just consider Book 2, Text 55, a wonderful illustration of just how varied and human all these units really can be. There's Mary Sagittari who wishes to be more than what she is, but even more striking is Count Topotato who is surely far from what a warlord is supposed to be.

Fair point about Wrigley. I don't think Mary and other Erf units are human, but your point is well taken there too.

But Mary and the Count both only desire to do their duty, and attempt to do so to the best of their ability. They do not bemoan what they are, only where they are in life. To my knowledge, we have not seen a warlord that would rather be a caster, or a vampire that would rather be a man. Even Sizemore is happy to be a dirtamancer, he just doesn't like being forced to kill.

The desire to serve to the best of their ability seems to be universal. It's just that some units have different ideas of how they could best serve than their Rulers. If they are unhappy, the unit wishes they were serving someone else, not that they had popped as someone else.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Jacinth and Rubies » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:27 pm

TheChaplin wrote:
Jacinth and Rubies wrote:Though it remains to be seen what danger Charlie sees regarding Parson's role in Erfworld,


Really? You don't see why Charlie would be at odds with the perfect warlord? I thought the foreshadowing/subtext/irony has been especially heavy handed as of late.

There is only one character in all of Erfworld whose agenda is to actually fight(has been since before book 0) for peace. Hint: It's not Parson.


Then how come Charlie initially wanted to capture Parson rather than croak him? He had ample opportunity to croak Parson during winding down of book 1. If Charlie truly fights for peace, and Parson solely represents war (which he does not - see Book 2 Text p. 37) why would he even leave Parson alive at all? Why would he even deal with Parson? And why does he happily continue to profit off other sides in their wars (Charlie's Rules are rather blatantly geared towards maximising profit off other sides' struggles)? How does a person who strives for peace justify helping to maintain such a violent status quo, let alone profiting off it? If Charlie really wants peace on Erf, he is truly atrocious in his methods and practices of getting there. I have great difficulty believing in Charlie being the one truly fighting for Peace in Erfworld.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:31 pm

One could argue Charlie is fighting in favor of continuing war on Erf. He tries to create problems for his clients as much as possibly to increase need of his services.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:33 pm

Chaplin I think you might be making the mistake of assuming that just because Charlie's attunement caused him to suddenly stop pursuing world domination, it also means he wants peace. The two concepts are not neccessarily tied, as his current behavior suggests. He's not conquering the world, but he is still very much interested in profiting from it's aggression.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Mr. Goodwraith » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:35 pm

I'm sure this point has been made before, but I'm not a regular forum reader (although I am a regular reader of the comic), so please forgive the revisit: To me, Sizemore's thoughts illustrate once again that there is something *fundamentally incompatible* between Erfworld (which seems designed for constant warfare) and its people (many of whom seem to dislike warfare). If *I* were a Titan creating people to live in a wargame world, I would make them universally enjoy conflict and make them physically incapable of feeling empathy for any unit that is not of their own side. Conversely, if I were making a home for people who preferred peace and could widely express compassion, Erfworld wouldn't be it. IMHO, either the Titans are sick puppies, or something went wrong with their creation from the very start.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:45 pm

That is actually (to my knowledge) a new observation, at least phrased that way. Especially your conclusion that they're either sick or something went wrong. Both are equally possible IMO, especially given that we have no evidence they are still present or active. (Fate could be an automated force of it's own, it doesn't need to be the result of their direct actions). It could also be the result of the speculated Retconjuration War. In their attempts to stabalize the timeline and wipe each other out, Rectonjurers could have broken something.
Or it's also possible the whole world follows the Wizard of Oz theme further, and it's sole reason for existing is for Parson to arrive. It's only broken so that Parson can fix it, thus growing as a person blah blah :p
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:53 pm

Mr. Goodwraith wrote:IMHO, either the Titans are sick puppies, or something went wrong with their creation from the very start.
Given those two options, I'll go with sick puppies. After all, the very economics of the system pushes sides into conflict. And the system doesn't provide anything in the way of inspiration for the units to make or seek change, except perhaps to attuned tool wielders. The libraries that pop are full of high scores, and not real knowledge and information, there's no support for a renaissance man. Charlie obviously doesn't need to conquer and expand to maintain his side, and Wanda can make upkeep free units. Everyone else has to expand or eventually fail*. Breaking the system requires a perfect warlord.


* FAQ v1 is the only exception I am aware of. And that's only because they pursued a strategy much like Charlies. But the option to be a static side supported by mercenaries does not scale. If everyone tried it, there would be no one hiring the mercs.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:10 pm

I don't see how the economy favors expansion when expanding reduces your income, and raising cities seems to produce less loot than the city needed to be built in the first place. Almost every strategy on this forum for unrestricted growth has required someway of creating peaceful cooperation, not rampant aggression.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:17 pm

He's not saying the economy encourages expansion, he's saying it encourages fighting. The fact that a single side cannot economically take over the whole world is a contributing factor to conflict.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby atalex » Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:20 pm

0beron wrote:[Charlie is] not conquering the world, but he is still very much interested in profiting from it's aggression.


I still think Charlie's motivations are more complicated than we know. Erfworld is conceptually based on a turn-based strategy game, and there are lots of such games in which one viable strategy is sit quietly and amass resources while everyone else fights, hoping that no one notices what you're doing until you are in position to win the entire game with a single move.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby mortissimus » Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:28 pm

0beron wrote:That is actually (to my knowledge) a new observation, at least phrased that way.


Then may I introduce you to ye olde The Malicious Titans Theory Thread in which is showcased the problems of assigning morality to gods, as well as the problems of trying to use real existing religions as examples when trying to get points across.
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