Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby wih » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:26 am

Parson and Charlie. Please. Oh, oh, oh, please.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:37 am

0beron wrote:
Oberon wrote:You can believe what you will, but you don't have the luxury of inventing fake facts to support your belief.
Good, because that is not what I'm doing. I am stating my opinion of how Stanley seems to come across, and I very clearly delineated such as being opinion. Then, assuming I'm trying to posit my take as fact, you rebut with "evidence" in the form of statements from someone who is not Stanley, the subject of discussion. It's a total non sequitur. Just because Stanley's world view has been altered by Wanda's ideas does not mean Wanda/Decrypted and Stanley are necessarily both on the same page philosophically.
Are you actually claiming that the offers of alliance made by Stanleys' units in the field were false? Because if so, I'd like to see your evidence. What supports that position? Is that your "opinion"? You really can't have it both ways, you know. Either Stanley's units were offering alliance in defiance of his wishes, which would make you right, of they were offering sincere offers of alliance, which would make you wrong.

Which is it? Pick one, or come up with some third option which doesn't contradict your prior positions. Good luck!
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:03 am

wih wrote:Parson and Charlie. Please. Oh, oh, oh, please.


A few updates of what Parson was up to before being summoned might be interesting. Or a few updates fleshing out the characters from his gaming circle. Not enough for a full book most like, but would be some decent filler.

Oberon wrote:
0beron wrote:
Oberon wrote:You can believe what you will, but you don't have the luxury of inventing fake facts to support your belief.
Good, because that is not what I'm doing. I am stating my opinion of how Stanley seems to come across, and I very clearly delineated such as being opinion. Then, assuming I'm trying to posit my take as fact, you rebut with "evidence" in the form of statements from someone who is not Stanley, the subject of discussion. It's a total non sequitur. Just because Stanley's world view has been altered by Wanda's ideas does not mean Wanda/Decrypted and Stanley are necessarily both on the same page philosophically.
Are you actually claiming that the offers of alliance made by Stanleys' units in the field were false? Because if so, I'd like to see your evidence. What supports that position? Is that your "opinion"? You really can't have it both ways, you know. Either Stanley's units were offering alliance in defiance of his wishes, which would make you right, of they were offering sincere offers of alliance, which would make you wrong.

Which is it? Pick one, or come up with some third option which doesn't contradict your prior positions. Good luck!
How about this third option? Wanda and Ansom are the highest ranking units of the side short of the Ruler. The Chief Warlord in particular wields a lot of power over the side, able to make decisions for the side without the Ruler's consent, like Jillian did when accepting Wanda's turning. A Chief Warlord could offer alliance without checking with the Ruler first. In that case, the offer is genuine, it just doesn't come from Stanley. The chief warlord does not speak with the ruler's voice. From what we've seen, they make their own choices, and are free to follow through on them unless ordered not to by the Ruler, and even then they can overrule the Ruler if they feel the side is in peril.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:38 am

Thank you Lipkin, for reading my mind. Summed it up perfectly.

Also, I disagree with the notion that one cannot "rule" your allies. We see it in Stupidworld all the time, when there is an imbalance of power between allies. Well, GK is enjoying a great imbalance of power (or at least it was when those statements were made). Moreover, it's all well and good to make the show of offering alliance when you know the enemy will refuse anyway.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Mikalyaran » Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:46 pm

0beron wrote:Thank you Lipkin, for reading my mind. Summed it up perfectly.

Also, I disagree with the notion that one cannot "rule" your allies. We see it in Stupidworld all the time, when there is an imbalance of power between allies. Well, GK is enjoying a great imbalance of power (or at least it was when those statements were made). Moreover, it's all well and good to make the show of offering alliance when you know the enemy will refuse anyway.


Yeah Ruler's really arn't the absolute end all be all that you would think from the name. A quote from A.V. Club's erfwiki entry:

"Squabbles in the capital lost them the war, and A.V. was released to the Magic Kingdom in an act of spite by the Chief Warlord against the Ruler."

So if a Chief Warlord can do that then they can make offers in the field and expect them to stick. Sometimes at least. It seems to me this must be a somewhat fluid system. If a weak ruler sits the throne who will just approve the Chiefs decisions then it seems to me the Chief is ruling (very similar to Olive's case). Then there is Jintao's side Tar Zhay where the ruler is in a permanent state of incapacitation and the side is now ruled by a council.

Sp yeah. Plenty of room for variation in the command structure and in the parameters deciding of who can and cannot rule who.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:20 pm

Lipkin wrote:How about this third option?
Ah, so you are claiming that Ossomer and Trem spit in Ansom's face without any backing from Slately. You are claiming that Ansom's offer of alliance with Jetstone had no support and would be rejected or refused by Stanley. You are claiming that the offer to Unaroyal to become allies with GK was just a trick, after which they would have been eliminated.

And you have some evidence to support this position, I hope?

No? Yeah, I didn't think so.

So all you have is bullshit and supposition to support your bullshit and supposition.

0beron wrote:Also, I disagree with the notion that one cannot "rule" your allies.
Disagree all you want. Simply prove to me that GK isn't sincere or has used such tactics in the past and I'll accede to your point.

But, you can't, can you? No? Yeah, I didn't think so.

So all you have is bullshit and supposition to support your bullshit and supposition.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:09 pm

Will you chill out already and/or just go away? You are single-handedly destroying every single active discussion and reducing it to a one-sided kindergarten playground shouting match.

On Lipkin's suggestion, no that is not what he's saying, and despite the act, you are smart enough to know that. He very explicitly said that the CWL would have the authority to make such an agreement, and make such an offer sincerely. Stanley may not like it, and may want to violate it after finding out, but doing so would incur whatever penalties are laid out in the agreement. In which case, my next paragraph applies:

I'm talking about a FUTURE event here, saying that "ruling" one's allies through intimidation is a valid strategy GK could elect to use in the future. If your only choice is annihilation or alliance, you're probably gonna accept the alliance, and as long as your "ally" retains a strategic advantage over you, you're gonna keep quiet and do what they say. Is that seriously such a radical concept to understand and accept? By all means, exercise your Predictamancy skills to tell us that GK won't use this strategy ever, but that doesn't change it being an option for them.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Sir Shadow » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:55 pm

It has to do with Duty, look at the situation with Caesar and Don. Don's Units defied him blatantly and denied him being able his own resources as he pleased. There is certainly room for free will in certain aspects, but it all boils down to a mixture of Duty, Obedience, and Loyalty... and Love, whatever that is. There are mechanics within Erfworld that will keep a Ruler from running his Side into the ground completely, and I think we're going to see that in action in Book 3.

However, I think the situation with Stanley is not quite as cut and dry. In book 1, he did not have any idea what what he was supposed to do with the hammer; he simply believed that by merely attuning with the hammer it meant that the Titans had a plan for him.

Then we have Wanda, who believes Fate is guiding her to unite the Arkentools. With the Arkenpliers, she can create an army that grows exponentially and never decays, making conquest an obvious choice. BUT if you recall, Wanda was a part of another Side that had tried to rule the world and had expanded to the point where they were bankrupting themselves due to the problem of diminishing returns. So, when GK starts hitting that barrier, she knows better than to just keep taking cities. Erf is immense, and the fastest way to unite it would be with alliances. Sure there is a certain Meta of slowly killing and decrypting units over time until you have a truly massive no-upkeep army, but that's not the easiest thing to keep going if you start taking bigger losses than you can come back from.

In period between book 1 and book 2 we see moments and mentioning of GK's desire to unite all of Erf under a single alliance. While that doesn't mean you will 'rule the world' it is the closest way to 'rule the world' that one can achieve in Erfworld by the standard method. Look at Trammenis when he is discussing ways they can deal with GK. Alliances/Treaties don't have any kind of limit on what form stipulations might take. 1 million schmuckers seems to be a lot, so it's not inconceivable that an alliance could include things such as 'tribute' which could be used to keep an 'ally' in check by not allowing them to accrue much wealth of their own. That is how you rule your allies: giving them a treaty skewed in your favor and maintaining a superior standing army. If you don't understand that, then you've obviously never played some of the more recent Civilization games.

It really is Ansom who is going on about 'Titanic mandate' that is pushing for uniting the world under the Tools while Wanda really just wants to unite all Tools, and the easiest way to do that is to conquer those that have them. Parson took a huge step back, he only assisted Wanda when she asked him for it, and was content to his war games with Jack, so we don't know where he stands precisely, though now we see that he is determined to Survive and has a vendetta to follow.

Stanley has not really changed. He doesn't know if he's meant to rule the world and his recent trouble with feeling inferior to Wanda is proof of that. Since he has no better plan of his own or insight as to what Fate or the Titans have for him (if anything), he doesn't fight what is going on because overall, it's good for GK as a Side.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:16 pm

Zeroberon wrote:You are single-handedly destroying every single active discussion and reducing it to a one-sided kindergarten playground shouting match.
Single handedly? No. It takes more than one to have a discussion or an argument. STFU if you want the discussion/argument to end.

Shouting match? No. All I'm asking is that people back up their theories with fact. Preferably fact from the canon. But you've got nothing, so you'l rather I just "went away." Well, I'm staying. Prove you points or back away from them. Or stick to them despite all evidence to the contrary. I could give a rat's ass. But any time I see a post about Kingworld (*Ptui!*) which makes some assertion without any evidence to back it up, expect me to be right on your ratty ass, refuting your pathetic inventions.
Zeroberon wrote:I'm talking about a FUTURE event here [...]
Pathetic. All you've got is the unknowable FUTURE (this is how capslock wins arguments, don't ya know) as your 'evidence'. Well, the FUTURE isn't knowable. Not by me, and certainly not by you. Claiming that things might happen in the FUTURE to support your theories is, as a colleague of mine used to say, correct, but not relevant.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:31 pm

See, that is where you are wrong, and as usual twisting things. This is not a discussion, which is exactly my point. It is a temper tantrum screaming in the middle of an otherwise civil gathering of adults. I don't want the discussion to end, I want your inappropriate interruptions of it to.

As for the future, it's not a claim to support the theory, it IS the theory, as I (once again, very plainly) explained. Feel free to continue to pick and choose what you want to shout about, conveniently ignoring everything else.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:54 pm

Oberon wrote:
Lipkin wrote:How about this third option?
Ah, so you are claiming that Ossomer and Trem spit in Ansom's face without any backing from Slately. You are claiming that Ansom's offer of alliance with Jetstone had no support and would be rejected or refused by Stanley. You are claiming that the offer to Unaroyal to become allies with GK was just a trick, after which they would have been eliminated.

And you have some evidence to support this position, I hope?

No? Yeah, I didn't think so.

So all you have is bullshit and supposition to support your bullshit and supposition.


That isn't at all what I said. What I said was that Stanley didn't need to be conferred with to make an offer of alliance. We don't know how he feels about it, because we never saw him weigh in on the topic. We can assume Ansom's offer was made in good faith, because we never saw any indication of otherwise, but we can't assume that Stanley had any part in it. We don't know. The most we can say is that Stanley didn't forbid alliance. Stanley might have been on board with alliance, or he might have been in the dark. If he was in the dark, we don't know how he would react upon finding out.

I am not, and never did, say that the offer of alliance was a trick that would lead to GK attacking whoever they offered alliance to. That is your own invention. Stop putting words in my mouth.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby drachefly » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:14 pm

No, Oberon, you're seriously misreading people and putting words into their mouths. That's pretty obnoxious.

(edit: Lipkin is a ninja)
Last edited by drachefly on Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:20 pm

drachefly wrote:No, you're seriously misreading people and putting words into their mouths. That's pretty obnoxious.

Me?
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:09 pm

Lipkin wrote:What I said was that Stanley didn't need to be conferred with to make an offer of alliance. We don't know how he feels about it, because we never saw him weigh in on the topic. We can assume Ansom's offer was made in good faith, because we never saw any indication of otherwise, but we can't assume that Stanley had any part in it. We don't know. The most we can say is that Stanley didn't forbid alliance. Stanley might have been on board with alliance, or he might have been in the dark. If he was in the dark, we don't know how he would react upon finding out.

I am not, and never did, say that the offer of alliance was a trick that would lead to GK attacking whoever they offered alliance to. That is your own invention. Stop putting words in my mouth.
I am not. Here are your own words:
Lipkin wrote:Stanley sees his attuning as a sign that he is awesome, which gives him permission to do whatever he wants. And Stanley is the ruler of Gobwin Knob. I don't think he gives a crap about world peace. Peace is boring.
Unless I misunderstand you somehow, you are saying that Stanley wants to fight wars of conquest, because "peace is boring." But you've got nothing but your own opinion to support that.

I, on the other hand, have two examples of Stanley's representatives offering exactly the opposite, alliance rather than war, to two sides, Unaroyal and Jetstone, who were both part of the RCC. And, in case history may be forgotten, the RCC was put together with the sole purpose of curb-stomping the uppity non-royal who had managed to grow his side large enough to draw the attention of the royals who felt the need to prove their own favor of the titans by keeping any non-royal side down. Offering peace to two sides which were members of that coalition, and are (were, in the case of Unaroyal) members of the second such coalition, is magnanimous beyond belief.

There is nothing in the canon which supports Stanley feeling that the 'hammer gives him titanic permission to do whatever he wants. That is your invention, based I am sure upon your sincere belief. But it is still an invention.

There is canon that GK has offered peaceful alliance to two sides which were part of a massive conspiracy to keep down the non-royal GK side which had gotten large and uppity. And that canon directly contradicts your invention. You may claim all you want that Stanley didn't make those offers himself, and infer that somehow he might have preferred war over alliance. That is not a supportable claim, since Stanley is the Overlord of GK and no such alliance can exist without his approval. GK would have been peacefully allied with Unaroyal and Jetstone if the sincere offers GK made were accepted. We cannot use speculation about the future of those alliances to pass judgement upon the Stanley of the present, which a lot of people seem to want to do. We can use the actual facts of the matter to draw a conclusion about Stanley, and that conclusion does not include him being warlike to the degree that he feels that ownership of the 'hammer allows him to do whatever he wants.

Lipkin wrote:
drachefly wrote:No, you're seriously misreading people and putting words into their mouths. That's pretty obnoxious.
Me?
Probably me, even though I try not to do so.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:43 pm

This is the page that I am basing my opinion of Stanley on. He believes he is holy, and that good and evil do not enter into the equation.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F032.jpg

This says to me he thinks he can do whatever he wants.

And I have not been making speculation about the future of any alliances that were made. After an alliance was made, if Stanley was not in the loop, it would be Ansom and Wanda's job to convince him that the alliance was for the best. I think Stanley would be resistant, but ultimately would be swayed.

Stanley's pride has been a plot point since the very beginning of book 1. He wants glory. He wants to kick ass. He's jealous of Parson's abilities, and resents Wanda and Ansom for being the ones going out and being in the action. He'd be much happier as warrior than a ruler, but his pride makes him think being a Ruler is better. We've never seen any indication that Stanley has any interest in peace before these offers were made by Wanda and Ansom. Based on what we've seen of Stanley, he would need to be convinced that peace was for the best. We do not know if they convinced him before they made the offers, or made the offers without consulting him and would attempt to convince him after the offers were accepted. Better to seek forgiveness than permission and all.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:40 pm

Lipkin wrote:This is the page that I am basing my opinion of Stanley on. He believes he is holy, and that good and evil do not enter into the equation.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F032.jpg

This says to me he thinks he can do whatever he wants.

... Boggle ...

Is this the same Stanley who used to have 13 cities and is down to one that we're talking about? Is it really?

In what way do you manage to stretch Stanley's current position as the Overlord of a side which has been reduced to a single city into Stanley thinking that he can do whatever he wants?

All he says is that there is no good and evil, but that there is holy and unholy, and that the titan's have willed him to collect the arkentools. That has absolutely zilch do to with world domination via conquest. And in fact, he said it at a point in time in which he was on the losing end of a war of aggression from the RCC. He may put his faith in the titans that his side won't be ended and that the 'pliers will eventually be his, but there's no way to twist that into any kind of belief that he should be king of the world. Just no way. Not in canon, and not even a reasonable extrapolation based on the facts of the situation. You are quite simply putting words in Stanley's mouth, just as you accused me of doing to you. The fact that he is fictional doesn't make that right.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:17 pm

"That everyone is out to get him is proof that he is doing something right."

I didn't say he thought he should be king of the world. I said he thought the hammer made him awesome. The hammer gives him the power to do whatever the hammer gives him the power to do. Might makes right, and the Titans gave him the might.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:53 pm

And I agree with you. But our entire discussion began because you claimed that Stanley wasn't interested in peace, and then you discounted the two offers GK had made to royal sides as evidence that he will indeed accept peace over conquest. And then continued arguing the point for a couple pages, with the occasional inane comment from Zeroberon backing your position.

But if you're giving that up and retreating to a simple "Stanley thinks the 'hammer makes him awesome", I've got no argument against that. I'll go a step further and point out that Stanley thinks the 'hammer makes him holy, a tool of the titans, and obviously in the titans favor. That's got to be better than awesome any day of the week, and twice on Sundays.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:08 pm

Oberon wrote:And I agree with you. But our entire discussion began because you claimed that Stanley wasn't interested in peace, and then you discounted the two offers GK had made to royal sides as evidence that he will indeed accept peace over conquest. And then continued arguing the point for a couple pages, with the occasional inane comment from Zeroberon backing your position.

But if you're giving that up and retreating to a simple "Stanley thinks the 'hammer makes him awesome", I've got no argument against that. I'll go a step further and point out that Stanley thinks the 'hammer makes him holy, a tool of the titans, and obviously in the titans favor. That's got to be better than awesome any day of the week, and twice on Sundays.

We've never seen evidence that Stanley is interested in peace, beyond Ansom and Wanda offering it. And we have no proof that they would need his backing to offer it. I do not think he is interested in peace, but that doesn't mean he couldn't, or hasn't, been convinced it would be best for his side.

I'm saying we have no concrete proof of Stanley's goals either way. The claim that started all this was that GK has been consistently fighting for world peace, and that is simply not true.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:21 am

I repeat the point that statements from Ansom/Ossomer/Wanda are NOT a factual representation of Stanley's opinions. It's a game of telephone at best, and outright opposites at worst. As has already been clearly demonstrated with comic evidence, the CWL and Chief Caster of a side both have great levels of autonomy, so the only fact we can take from an offer of alliance is that Stanley has not thought to explicitly forbid one. Sorry Ohberon, but this assertion is not a valid fact in your argument about Stanley personally.
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