Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:59 am

0beron wrote:I repeat the point that statements from Ansom/Ossomer/Wanda are NOT a factual representation of Stanley's opinions. It's a game of telephone at best, and outright opposites at worst.
That's putting it too strongly. It's not a game of telephone when your ruler authorizes you to offer peace to the enemy; there's no way Ansom could have gotten that mixed up or confused in any way. Ansom surely would have had the power to unilaterally offer peace to Jetstone, but Loyalty would tend to repel him from acting directly against Stanley's wishes and I find it hard to believe that Ansom wouldn't have talked about it with Stanley, especially considering that they had frequent meetings through mount relay. I agree that it's not a matter of fact, but it's still pretty good evidence that Stanley probably supported the peace option, or at least didn't care one way or the other.

0beron wrote:As has already been clearly demonstrated with comic evidence, the CWL and Chief Caster of a side both have great levels of autonomy, so the only fact we can take from an offer of alliance is that Stanley has not thought to explicitly forbid one.
Chief warlords can even sign binding contracts for their side, as Ansom did with Charlie in Book 1, but they probably don't make a habit of abusing that power since a ruler can disband a chief warlord with a thought.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby wih » Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:23 am

It's a matter of tacit approval. If the chief Warlord and Caster are out making offers of alliance that everyone know about and Stanley doesn't stop it or reign it in after the fact, that's tacit approval.
wih
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:07 am

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:57 am

Let's see... GK is trying to unite all the sides in a common alliance. They offer peace to two sides who were part of an alliance with but a single goal: To end GK. To
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F125.jpg wrote:dine on their booty
. And somehow GK are the warmongers.

GK was taken from 13 cities to one by the RCC. GK manages to survive, manages to grow again, and then offers peace to sides which were dedicated to its destruction. And yet somehow it's GK which is seen as the warmonger. Somehow GK isn't interested in world peace, despite the direct statements from GK to Unaroyal which support that position.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:39 am

Wanda is trying to unite all sides to a common alliance. That isn't the same thing.

You keep taking things to their extremes. I say Stanley is interested in conquest, you claim I'm saying he wants to conquer the world. If GK asks for peace, they want world peace. Wanda has stated that as her goal, but we've never heard Stanley claim the same, and we certainly haven't heard Parson chime in on that. When asked about GK seeking peace by Charlie, Parson just stated they were up against diminishing returns, and it was a good time for it. If Wanda and Ansom are going around claiming they want a world alliance, so Parson wouldn't be adding any new information by repeating their company line. But he doesn't share their motivations, he only sees the strategic merit of digging in and seeking peace. Likewise, Stanley could agree to peace without being a champion of world peace.

Stanley didn't start with 13 cities and get whittled down to 1. Gobwin Knob's rise to super power after Stanley attuned. They became powerful by stepping over the corpses of their neighbors. Wanda didn't join the side until after Stanley was ruler, so the nonsense about uniting the tools, and uniting the world, came later. Before that, Stanley was loving life as a conqueror.

Wanda is crazy, and Ansom is brain washed. There are strategic reasons to offer alliance and seek peace, reasons that Parson supports. It does not mean the sidewide goal is world peace.
User avatar
Lipkin
 
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby drachefly » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:00 am

Lipkin wrote:
drachefly wrote:No, you're seriously misreading people and putting words into their mouths. That's pretty obnoxious.

Me?


No, not you.
User avatar
drachefly
 
Posts: 1594
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:36 pm

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:32 am

Lilwik wrote:there's no way Ansom could have gotten that mixed up or confused in any way. Ansom surely would have had the power to unilaterally offer peace to Jetstone, but Loyalty would tend to repel him from acting directly against Stanley's wishes and I find it hard to believe that Ansom wouldn't have talked about it with Stanley, especially considering that they had frequent meetings through mount relay. I agree that it's not a matter of fact, but it's still pretty good evidence that Stanley probably supported the peace option, or at least didn't care one way or the other.

You seem to be forgetting something. Ansom is not loyal to Stanley. He is loyal to Wanda and the Arkenpliers, just like all of the Decrypted, and we know that Wanda is only 'Loyal' to Fate. She has no compunction regarding disobeying or downright betraying her rulers. The only reason she likely puts up with Stanley at all is because he is attuned.

You cannot use Wanda's/Ansom's/any Decrypted's actions to define what Stantley's intentions might be. When Wanda raises them, she is the one that alters their perception, Duty, and Loyalty. As in Ossomer's case, we see that some of their old life may stay behind, but as a whole they are seeing the world through 'Wanda-colored' glasses. They may pay lip service to Stanley, though I never see that happen in the comic, but that's about it IMO.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
User avatar
Sir Shadow
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:53 am
Location: When you reach the border of hell, turn right. Can't miss me.

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:52 pm

Lilwik wrote:It's not a game of telephone when your ruler authorizes you to offer peace to the enemy; there's no way Ansom could have gotten that mixed up or confused in any way.
You're making a mistake, which is the heart of my point actually. I'm saying its just as likely Stanley did NOT authorize it. As long as Stanley hasn't expressly forbidden it, they have the ability to offer alliance regardless of whatever his wishes may be.
So as I already said, the only factual conclusion about Stanley we can draw from those offers is that he has not expressly forbidden an alliance. That fact could translate to:
  • He does indeed want world peace
  • He doesn't care what happens to enemy sides, as long as he "wins"
  • He isn't clever enough to think about alliances in the first place, so even though he'd forbid one if he thought of it, he hasn't thought of it yet.
So, the offers of alliance DO serve as evidence that Stanley hasn't forbid an alliance, but what precisely that fact means about his personal thoughts on it is still unknown.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby drachefly » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:14 pm

Lipkin wrote:Wanda didn't join the side until after Stanley was ruler...


Nope, Stanley got her before Saline died.
User avatar
drachefly
 
Posts: 1594
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:36 pm

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:49 pm

Indeed, Remember when Stanley was talking to Larder Twoll? Told him about how Saline let him do whatever. Told him about how he ganked FAQ and got his very own omnimancer and foolamancer and who knows what else.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1382
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:04 pm

Huh. Guess I remembered wrong.
User avatar
Lipkin
 
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:36 am

Sir Shadow wrote:You seem to be forgetting something. Ansom is not loyal to Stanley. He is loyal to Wanda and the Arkenpliers, just like all of the Decrypted, and we know that Wanda is only 'Loyal' to Fate. She has no compunction regarding disobeying or downright betraying her rulers. The only reason she likely puts up with Stanley at all is because he is attuned.
That's all true, but I think it's putting too much weight on Loyalty. I agree that the decrypted are loyal to Wanda and Wanda probably has low loyalty to Stanley, but Stanley is still the ruler. No matter how little loyalty Wanda may have, Stanley can still disband her, and Stanley can disband the decrypted. Wanda's low Loyalty might someday cause her to turn, perhaps to Charlescomm, and if Stanley had an heir then I can believe Wanda might murder Stanley, but until something like that happens Wanda needs to follow Stanley's lead and so do the decrypted.

It would be highly odd for Ansom to offer an alliance that Stanley would be against. Ansom probably wouldn't want to spring a surprise alliance on Stanley because that could lead to Ansom being disbanded or replaced. There would need to be a very strong reason why Wanda or Ansom want the alliance, but I can't imagine a reason strong enough. Naturally Ansom wants an alliance with Jetstone, but all that should lead to is Ansom suggesting it to Stanley in one of their planning meetings. If Ansom suggested it and Stanley said no, then Ansom should expect to be disbanded for making the offer to Jetstone. If Ansom didn't suggest it, then surely that must be because Ansom expected Stanley to say no and wanted to try to force Stanley into the alliance before Stanley has a chance to say no, but that also should lead to very bad things for Ansom, especially when Stanley has an excellent replacement for Ansom. I just can't imagine Ansom choosing to risk his life and give up his position as chief warlord for nothing more than a short-lived and unhappy alliance between Gobwin Knob and Jetstone.

It would also be an odd thing for Wanda to do, if the idea for an alliance came from Wanda. For one thing, I don't see why Wanda would care enough about an alliance with Jetstone to risk angering Stanley. Jetstone has no Arkentool, so it seems rather irrelevant to her goals. If Wanda wanted the alliance then instead making it happen behind Stanley's back, I'd expect her to manipulate Stanley into thinking that the alliance was his idea.

In short, I agree that Loyalty is weak in this situation, but everything else seems to point to Stanley being agreeable to the alliance offers.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:55 am

There are 3 Natural Thinkamancies governing Commanders' actions:
  • Loyalty: Very complex, and recently revealed to be actually quite strong, more so than you seem to give it credit for. Decrypted have Loyalty to Wanda, and will prioritize her desires over others.
  • Duty: Pursuing the good of the side. If in their personal judgment, an alliance is the best move for the side, they'll go for it. It doesn't even have to actually be the best move, they just have to THINK it is. And thanks to Decryption, they have some slightly altered perceptions about the world.
  • Obedience: The compulsion to obey actual Orders. If Stanley actually forbids an alliance, then they will follow that order.
You'll notice that when it comes to the Decrypted, only one of these even touches on Stanely's personal opinions, Loyalty, and there it is a lower priority than Wanda's desires. Moreover, it depends on communication. If Stanley doesn't talk about it, they have no way of knowing.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:11 am

0beron wrote:If Stanley doesn't talk about it, they have no way of knowing.
Is that talking about a real situation, or is it purely hypothetical? As a hypothetical I agree, but does anyone really think that Stanley wouldn't talk about it when Ansom asked Stanley about it directly? Does anyone really think that Ansom wouldn't have asked Stanley about a Jetstone alliance in one of the many relay-enabled meetings that they had? Surely Ansom was thinking about it since he still cares about his family and doesn't want to see them decrypted, as seen in Book 2, Page 10.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:40 am

Unless we have it happening on-screen, that's an assumption, and I'm working off what we have that's provable. However, note that even if Stanley had discussed this, that knowledge only impacts one out of the three Thinkamancies, and comes in at low priority at that. My main point was to illustrate that Stanley's opinions actually matter very little in determining Ansom's behavior.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby drachefly » Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:24 am

Not only is Ansom discussing peace offers with Stanley not provable, it seems unlikely.

(We didn't see them have breakfast yesterday but I wouldn't base a theory on their not having it. This is different)
User avatar
drachefly
 
Posts: 1594
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:36 pm

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:03 am

0beron wrote:Unless we have it happening on-screen, that's an assumption, and I'm working off what we have that's provable.
If we ignore what's likely and consider only what's provable then we're bound to end up with unlikely theories. Compared to the things we know are likely, the things we can actually prove are very few. I'm more interested in what's likely because there we have so much more to work with and we always end up with likely theories.

drachefly wrote:Not only is Ansom discussing peace offers with Stanley not provable, it seems unlikely.
Why is it unlikely that Ansom and Stanley would discuss offering peace to Jetstone? Is it because neither of them has any interest in peace with Jetstone? Is it because Jetstone is a trivial little side not worth any thought? Is it because Ansom hoped to somehow avoid being disbanded in an attempt to spring a surprise alliance on Stanley, knowing that Stanley would have refused if consulted? Those are the only reasons I can imagine, but they all seem unlikely to be true. I'm very curious to hear what reason you're thinking of.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Sir Shadow » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:42 am

It's more than likely that Stanley simply deferred to Ansom's judgement since he was there in the field. Ansom didn't need to cover with Stanley about it b/c he was chief warlord and in charge of the situation.

Do you think Ansom discussed everything with Slately even they were marching on Gobwin Knob? Did Slately agree to hire Charlie or to those special terms regarding Parson? I doubt it. He probably wasn't/still isn't aware of all the details from the battle.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
User avatar
Sir Shadow
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:53 am
Location: When you reach the border of hell, turn right. Can't miss me.

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:07 am

Sir Shadow wrote:It's more than likely that Stanley simply deferred to Ansom's judgement since he was there in the field. Ansom didn't need to cover with Stanley about it b/c he was chief warlord and in charge of the situation.
Are you saying that Ansom wasn't planning to offer peace before the parley began? Was there some special situational consideration that might have motivated Ansom? It seems like the question of whether Gobwin Knob wanted peace with Jetstone had nothing to do with the details of the situation; the battle hadn't even begun and Gobwin Knob certainly wasn't losing the battle. It seems like he was planning to offer peace before he even left Gobwin Knob, especially since Jetstone is Ansom's family. I can't imagine him leaving Gobwin Knob fully intending to croak his father and brothers, and then at some point along the way realizing the situation called for a peace offer.

Sir Shadow wrote:Do you think Ansom discussed everything with Slately even they were marching on Gobwin Knob?
I don't think so, but we're not talking about everything, only the really big things. Do you think that if Ansom was planning to offer an alliance to Gobwin Knob before the battle, he would have mentioned that to Slately?
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Sir Shadow » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:57 pm

It doesn't really matter when he decided to do it. The point is, Stanley is deferring to Ansom.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
User avatar
Sir Shadow
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:53 am
Location: When you reach the border of hell, turn right. Can't miss me.

Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:20 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:It doesn't really matter when he decided to do it. The point is, Stanley is deferring to Ansom.

And the reasons to offer peace doesn't need to be the same for both. Stanley could be on board with peace with Jetstone, but not buy into world peace.
User avatar
Lipkin
 
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Denar and 21 guests