Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:21 am

Justyn wrote:Oberon, 0beron, Lilwik, Lipkin: Keep it respectful, consider this a warning.

Honestly not sure at what point I crossed the line, but I'll do my best to keep things civil.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:54 am

Same here, I'm extremely disappointed by this response.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby drachefly » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:00 pm

On the bright side, the comment's denotative meaning is that no one ever crossed the line.

A bit weak, but at least there's that.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:40 am

drachefly wrote:On the bright side, the comment's denotative meaning is that no one ever crossed the line.
Which if true, is very sad, because it's gonna set a very sad precedent for behavior in the future, and the slow creep into trolling will continue.

wih wrote:Charlie's actions indicate he would have preferred Parson to read the scroll rather than DIAF.
As for this...I personally am very hesitant to try and conclude anything about Charlie's motivations period. I'm not saying there is any evidence you're wrong...I'm just very cautious when it comes to Charlie and thinking we "know" something.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby spriteless » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:46 am

It may be warning PMs got sent out with more details for those that need them. Don't worry about what precedents may or may not have been set, the mods aren't gonna demand their own words be parsed with diabolic attention to detail, just, kind of, conversational attention.

If Charlie was trying to make Parson waste time, he could have asked for a few more calculations.
T'was a splendidly speedy defection.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:13 am

0beron wrote:As for this...I personally am very hesitant to try and conclude anything about Charlie's motivations period.
That is certainly true. Above all else, the word that best describes Charlie is mysterious, so speculating about Charlie's motivations is a rather hopeless task. On the other hand I think we can safely assume that Charlie is careful with his lies. Based on Summer Update 22, Charlie sometimes sells information and you have to lower the price of your information if you get a reputation for lying. Trying to mislead Parson about the mechanics of Erfworld would be such a transparent lie. Charlie would have no way of knowing that Parson wouldn't spot the deception immediately, and then Charlie would have a very hard time manipulating Parson any further.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:55 pm

0beron wrote:Organization is automatic, housing is automatic, entertainment is unnecessary, and suppression is unneccesary because units are incapable of harming their own side.


First a nitpick, entertainment is quite necessary. Units in Erfworld have sex for the single purpose of having pleasure, as they can't ever get pregnant. Units in Erfworld are actually willing to pay for sex (aka pay full service for one of Charlie's archons), in a world where you want every last smucker to pay for armies and upgrades and whatnot. Heck, Wanda's brother slept with the enemy despite the risk of being poisoned (and paid for it). Jillian is also known for deciding to have sex while the enemy is observing and outmaneuvering her forces.

And less of a nitpick, units are quite capable of hurting their own side. So far in the story we've seen subordinates plot their own agendas at the expense of their own sides. Maggie is an unit of Gobwin Knob, but actually answers to the thinkmancer council. Charlie's daughter got him addicted to drugs and almost suceeded on killing him. Caesar the super-loyal chief warlord is plotting against Don right now. Wanda destroyed no less than three factions from inside. Jillian's crazyness and stubborness has cost her own people plenty of stuff as well.

So, following Ansomer as a model, even if Wanda managed to decrypt everybody else in Erfworld, there would still be people questioning her actions, and sooner or later that would develop into insurrection and new conflict.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:04 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:So, following Ansomer as a model, even if Wanda managed to decrypt everybody else in Erfworld, there would still be people questioning her actions, and sooner or later that would develop into insurrection and new conflict.
That's a good point. Naturally the biggest risk would be that someone on Wanda's side would eventually murder her for some reason. It seems that she would unfortunately need to be a fully reclusive hermit, a load-bearing boss of the worst kind, single-handedly responsible for maintaining the peace of the world by suffering eternal solitude. Worse, even if Wanda could be totally protected from all plots, we have no idea about the geography of Erfworld. What if there are two major continents that naturally divide Erfworld in half? Then even if Erfworld were united, there would be a natural boundary-line where a political division could form. Whoever ruled as Wanda's proxy could only be on one continent or the other at any time, so there would be plenty of chances for at least one continent to form separatist plots and they both could if the proxy is bouncing back and forth in an attempt to maintain control of both.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Werebiscuit » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:18 pm

Wanda's proxy presents a bit of a problem...does it not?

We have no idea if the decrypted will outlast the bearer of the pliers...or whether they will dust as the wielder dies.

If the all-conquering peace is built on the economy of the decrypted's zero upkeep what happens when the wielder dies ?

At the very least their focus is lost until a new wielder attunes and that in itself can cause chaos as various factions will at that time vie to be the next attuned unless a succession is establiahed prior in anticiption of the inevitable. Who do the decrypted serve if there is no wielder? What of duty and loyalty then ? Would it be possible for a decrypted to weild the pliers ? Even if a succession is established can they be sure the successor will attune? Do we have a precedent for two wielders being alive at the same time? What if no-one undecrypted is left that can attune ? lots of difficult questions...and that makes for an uncertain time...chaos ensues.

If the decrypted dust then we have only undecrypted left and no hope of producing the decrypted hordes anytime soon. Will the economy function without the decrypted hordes? Even if it does then any barbarian will find lots of now unprotected resources and we will have a land grab...and then back to square one. lots of little "kingdoms" scrapping to be the big fish...chaos ensues
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby drachefly » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:43 pm

Maybe all of that has happened before. The last wielder of the pliers decrypted everyone, took over the world, then died. Bam. Empty world, and barbarians started afresh.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby name lips » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:59 am

Lilwik wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Naturally the biggest risk would be that someone on Wanda's side would eventually murder her for some reason. It seems that she would unfortunately need to be a fully reclusive hermit, a load-bearing boss of the worst kind, single-handedly responsible for maintaining the peace of the world by suffering eternal solitude.


This sounds almost exactly

like

Charlie.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:59 am

Your average "joe schmoe" units seem perfectly content doing nothing. Mary and her siblings lived at the capital for countless turns, and occupied themselves just fine. Sure, they did kind of imply they were bored, but not in a resentful sense, rather a "we are here and someday we will be needed to do our Duty" sort of sense. So basic units seem prefectly capable of entertaining themselves.

As for the little ways in which units may hurt their own side, these are incidental "nuisances" rather than full insurrection, and have never been witnessed in a Decrypted unit (besides Ossomer, and we've already discussed how his motivation would no longer exist). So any "interference" by units in a Wanda-ruled world would be insignificant IMO. With no real enemies to jump on the weakness, the impact is minimal.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Werebiscuit » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:23 am

name lips wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Naturally the biggest risk would be that someone on Wanda's side would eventually murder her for some reason. It seems that she would unfortunately need to be a fully reclusive hermit, a load-bearing boss of the worst kind, single-handedly responsible for maintaining the peace of the world by suffering eternal solitude.


This sounds almost exactly

like

Charlie.



Sounds almost like Charlie apart from "single-handedly responsible for maintaining the peace of the world by suffering eternal solitude."

In fact, if Charlies motivations are the ones suspected by several forum dwellers ( he maintains a constant state of war by offering contracts to competing clients which deal with and help negate the results of his prior successes with other clients) then the Wanda described would be almost like an anti-Charlie
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:34 pm

Meh, Charlie is just trying to survive if you ask me. He was betrayed by his own daughter and saw his emerald city turned into a drug factory.

If he turns his enemies against each other and then profits on the sides, well, that's basic tactics. The only real alternative for him would be to become a conquering side himself (no way he retires to the MK when it's filled with hippymancers)

0beron wrote:As for the little ways in which units may hurt their own side, these are incidental "nuisances" rather than full insurrection, and have never been witnessed in a Decrypted unit (besides Ossomer, and we've already discussed how his motivation would no longer exist). So any "interference" by units in a Wanda-ruled world would be insignificant IMO. With no real enemies to jump on the weakness, the impact is minimal.


Except that:
-Barbarians will still spawn.
-Units can turn to a barbarian side (Jillian tried to turn Wanda while the crazy princess was still a barbarian).
-Wanda's influence on her decrypted gets weaker the more distant she is (Ossomer only turned when she left the city). Considering she takes over the whole world, her influence would be very weak on very distant units.

So all in all, in Wanda World one day distant decrypted warlord Jimmy meets freshly spawned barbarian leader Jenny, that rekindles his taste for adventure and freedom, and from there the revolution starts. :D

Or you know, spawned barbarians eventually grind down some of Wanda's garrisons, taking some of her cities, and it's all back to square zero.

Really, unless you find a way to "turn off" auto-spawning barbarians, violent conflict will always be a part of Erfworld.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:02 pm

We have no idea what mechanic allowed Ossomer to turn. Was it her sudden distance? Was it just that he had taken enough time to think it over and make up his mind? Or was it simply author's choice as the most devastating/intense moment to turn? The timing is circumstantial evidence unfortunately.

As for Barbarians, that will never be a threat. IIRC, we have Word of the Titans that actual Barbarian Warlord pops are extremely rare, and the fact that we have never seen one appear besides Tisha supports this idea. And we have no idea at all what kind of forces they spawn with. So even when the occasional one does pop, and even if they contact a unit to encourage turning (despite having no knowledge of Wanda World themselves) you still have the 100 to 1 outnumbered issue.

I suppose it's a possible hiccup...but I can't see it really being a Wanda-World-ending Weakness.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:32 pm

0beron wrote:We have no idea what mechanic allowed Ossomer to turn. Was it her sudden distance? Was it just that he had taken enough time to think it over and make up his mind? Or was it simply author's choice as the most devastating/intense moment to turn? The timing is circumstantial evidence unfortunately.

As for Barbarians, that will never be a threat. IIRC, we have Word of the Titans that actual Barbarian Warlord pops are extremely rare, and the fact that we have never seen one appear besides Tisha supports this idea. And we have no idea at all what kind of forces they spawn with. So even when the occasional one does pop, and even if they contact a unit to encourage turning (despite having no knowledge of Wanda World themselves) you still have the 100 to 1 outnumbered issue.

I suppose it's a possible hiccup...but I can't see it really being a Wanda-World-ending Weakness.

I suppose the threat from barbarians would not be combat while they are still barbarians. Some decrypted warlords would experience moral compunctions against croaking surrendered or captured barbarian units when the Side has resources to spare - as already demonstrated by Ansom with respect to Ossomer - not to mention that it may be impractical to arrange a meet-up with Wanda to decrypt them. That would lead to the Side including non-decrypted units who would slowly gain levels via training. Those units could have some kind of social advantage due to being alive, if only due to the novelty of that. (Consider that Erfworld is influenced by popular culture, where the Fish out of Water often has out-sized influence.)
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:25 am

They could always be stabbed and shipped to the isolated Wanda.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:01 pm

0beron wrote:I suppose it's a possible hiccup...but I can't see it really being a Wanda-World-ending Weakness.


In the short term, no.

But in the long term, eventually some turn a specially large group of barbarians with spawn. With a talented and charismatic warlord. And simultaneously the conditions that allowed Ossomer to turn (the fact we can't detail them just means we can't work to prevent them from happening again ;) ) will repeat. And that alliance will go in a critical hit party while Wanda's forces suddenly start fubling everything due to a streak of horrible rolls. This includes but is not limited to local wildlife and natural allies suddenly popping up and attacking in the wrong places for Wanda.

Chances of either happening may be low. Chances of all of those happeningin in the right order are lower. But still not zero.

Barbarians cannot lose as they're always getting more reinforcments. But Wanda can be croaked and cannot be replaced. Statistics say the perfect storm eventually comes and ends Wanda World.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:16 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Barbarians cannot lose as they're always getting more reinforcments. But Wanda can be croaked and cannot be replaced. Statistics say the perfect storm eventually comes and ends Wanda World.

Not true. You need to make the perfect storm increasingly unlikely to happen. If the chance of perfect storm is decreasing at a sufficient rate you can get the chance of a perfect storm ever happening to be less than one, and perhaps even small.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby ftl » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:29 pm

Lamech wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Barbarians cannot lose as they're always getting more reinforcments. But Wanda can be croaked and cannot be replaced. Statistics say the perfect storm eventually comes and ends Wanda World.

Not true. You need to make the perfect storm increasingly unlikely to happen. If the chance of perfect storm is decreasing at a sufficient rate you can get the chance of a perfect storm ever happening to be less than one, and perhaps even small.


There's also boredom. There's only so long you can keep taking reasonable security precautions before you get complacent and lazy. After 100 years of nothing but routine, Wanda's gonna be taking solitary walks in the wilderness because proper security precautions got abandoned 50 years ago.

I think that so long as world peace has a single point of failure - one unit, or even one city - it can't be considered permanent, just possibly long-lived. Of course, that would be still very good, and I doubt any side that conquers the world is gonna be unhappy about it just because it would be hard to keep up forever!
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