Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:21 pm

Yes....this is a King of Jetstone I could get excited about :)
I think this is definitely setting the stage for a possible alliance between GK and Jetstone....but I'm still cautious. Trem will need to be convinced with facts and intel. Hatred of Charlie and loss of confidence in Charlie's abilities won't be enough, so let's hope Parson is clever.
I do want to address an earlier point about the Lilith. Someone suggested Charlie still needs Jetstone to hand her over...but I would imagine they are contractually obligated to do so and thus can't renege on it. Her value was (IIRC) part of the sum needed to promote Tram, so because that sum is paid Jetstone is now bound to deliver the goods. Perhaps letting her dust to some "unforeseen raid" would be a way around this, but that's too lateral for anyone besides Parson, and also I don't think there is anyone around left who could attack at this point.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby lonetrey » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:35 pm

I'm really liking the Signamancy for Trammenis!
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Sublight Monster » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:36 pm

Ambug666 wrote:Charles de Gaulle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle


Appropriate, considering today is CDG's birthday.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Gorky » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:40 pm

Did we ever hear about the Thinkamancy-blocking Crown of Jetstone before?
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lor » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:49 pm

Ambug666 wrote:Charles de Gaulle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle


Darn, you messed up the statement I was going to make :P

The Gall of Tramennis!
Sir Cedric: Delayed? How so?
Wamba: Well, when I heard Normans were approaching I ran to lock up my wife. But, she'd also heard they were approaching, and locked me up instead.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Jacinth and Rubies » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:56 pm

BCCroaker wrote:
Ambug666 wrote:Charles de Gaulle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle

Is Tramennis being Churchill - or Roosevelt? It almost sounds like a parody of WWII relations among the Allies.


To me, the first person that came to mind was Louis XIV (the opulent robes). I'm not always sure who the Signamancy in these thinkagrams originates with, but Tramennis definitely was wearing the Leadership hat this evening.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:04 pm

Gorky wrote:Did we ever hear about the Thinkamancy-blocking Crown of Jetstone before?
Yeah it's one of the things Ace & Cubbins did to it. It combats Think and Fool, since they knew GK had both.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby nargbop » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:51 pm

I hope that "Break" is not a magical certainty that the Thonkagram has ended. That is, that Thonkamacers only choose to end it out of courtesy. Charlie could then Link with a Foolamancer and completely control an enemy's sensorium. If it weren't for the scenes not involving Parson, it could all be a dream :)
Parson did once consider overwhelming Charlie with many Thinkamancers. They might help hom directly if he takes on their geas.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Nargrakhan » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:26 pm

It seems the biggest blow Parson has delivered against Charlie, is on his reputation of success. Charlie, in his own words, offers solutions. He sells the idea that if you pay him enough, he can solve anything. There isn't anything he can't fix... and with all the dirty manipulation at Charlie's command, this seemed to always be the case. Parson has proven twice, that is not the case. Charlie versus Parson is 0-2 in Charlie's disfavor... and Parson still doesn't know as much as Charlie does but won (i.e. Charlie has been using hax's and still lost).

In addition, Tramennis really needs to comprehend what the hell he's going up against. He knows Parson is the Ultimate Warlord, but I don't think he really understood what that entailed. Nor does Tramennis have any idea of the Prophecies and the Magic Kingdom's involvement... but it's pretty obvious Charlie is aware there's more than just Parson seeking to defeat him.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Krennson » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:33 pm

Arky wrote:
No one in particular wrote:
Krennson wrote:Reasons Jetstone can threaten to hold a grudge against CharlesCom:
Personally, Trammenis just lost his FATHER, specifically from a plan hatched by CharlesCom.
Professionaly, Trammenis also lost his capital city, a large number of forces, a caster, and his only chance at parley, again, thanks in large part to Charlie's meddling. If Jillian and Hagar had stuck around, Jetstone might have come out much better in that fight. And Charlie is arguably to blame for why they didn't.
Strategically, Jetstone doesn't know what Charlescom wants, why they want it, or whether or not those interests can be reconciled with the needs of Jetstone in the current war.

Put all those reasons together, and this is the PERFECT time for Tramennis to hold a grudge and demand concessions and honesty from Charlescom. And he think he knows it. It's always such a pleasure when your sense of professionalism tells you that it's appropriate to publicly endulge a personal grudge.
To be fair, Jetstone had it's keister hauled out of the Inferno by Charlie more than anything else.

  • GK totally bypassed Jetstone's forces, and were parked over the City. Who ended their Turn, trapping them in the airspace? Charlie.
  • Who told them NOT to talk to GK or give them time to do anything? Charlie.
  • Haggar had no intention of helping Jetstone. They were going to let GK & J duke it out and pounce on the winner. Who forced them into action, giving Jillian a chance to capture Ansom and cripple GK by taking the Chief Warlord bonus? Charlie.
  • Who offered the bounties that let Slately name an Heir, after the plea to TV fell through? Charlie.
  • Tramennis TOLD Slately to escape the City; it was Slately who refused and rode into battle with the Archons. Charlie's plans had nothing to do with it.


Yeah. I mean, if not for Charlie Gobwin Knob would have stomped Jetstone in a straight up battle. "Kingworld" is what gave Jetstone not only a chance but the advantage. Then all those things you listed are examples of where Charlie either assisted Jetstone or would have if they'd listened to him.

The one thing they can blame Charlie for, grudgingly, is a plan which relied on Jillian. Everyone knows Jillian is unreliable. Still, after Kingworld if they attack the GK forces without giving Parson the time to work out the harvest plan, they still win easily.

Satisfying as it is for us the readers to see Tramennis slap down Charlie (especially as I think a lot of us would like to see Parson and Tramennis get a chance to talk and become friends/allies) Charlie has some very, very good responses to Tram's ultimatum and so this might well be a hope spot before Tram throws Jetstone's lot in with Charlie once again.



Yes, but the great part about this strategy is that it doesn't MATTER if Tramennis is being fair about Charlies past actions. Tramennis is in the perfect position to play the grief-stricken, slightly illogical King of Jetstone, and make Charlie deal with Tramennis on his terms, not Charlie's.

Even if Charlie suspects that Tramennis is being deliberately unfair, and even if Charlie believes that a mutual defense treaty could be written that doesn't involve Charlie disclosing everything he's done so far, he can't risk calling Tramennis's ultimatum. Charlie is caught between several horns of a dilemma, and there's no good solution that doesn't involve mostly complying with Tramennis's unfair demands.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby davesnothere » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:24 am

Tramennis says " and yet failed to secure the one asset that you said was worth any cost"
Did they lose the captured archon? Did I miss something, or what he is talking about?
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby teratorn » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:32 am

davesnothere wrote:Tramennis says " and yet failed to secure the one asset that you said was worth any cost"
Did they lose the captured archon? Did I miss something, or what he is talking about?


Parson. Changing capital and leaving the city was supposed to strand Parson and make killing the fat man easier.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby name lips » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:33 am

Compare this interaction to the Charlie vs. Slately negotiations, where Slately transformed from a King into a Pawn.

Trem has Charlie's number. He's not going to be a pawn.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby reteo » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:48 am

davesnothere wrote:Tramennis says " and yet failed to secure the one asset that you said was worth any cost"
Did they lose the captured archon? Did I miss something, or what he is talking about?


The asset he was talking about was Parson.

Despite the heavy butcher's bill he paid, including home, family, and caster, the mercenary did not manage the objective that Tramennis sacrificed so much for. Add to this that manipulation Charlie did on the battlefield without clearing any of his stunts with Jetstone. The first shot down his perceived reliability. The second shot down his perceived credibility. Right now, he has demonstrated not only failure, but the tendency to go behind the backs of his allies. Tramennis does not trust Charlie to be on the level, or effective.

In essence, Tramennis is telling Charlie: "I gave you credit based on your reputation of results. You have not only failed Jetstone, at terrible cost, I might add, but you have also gone behind Jetstone's back. Your reputation and credibility has been compromised, and I don't trust you. So, tomorrow, I expect you to have a full explanation of what happened, and why I should be willing to trust you in the future." Tramennis holds the high card here; Charlie needs him, or he would not be going to such lengths to secure his assistance.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby TheChaplin » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:54 am

reteo wrote:Despite the heavy butcher's bill he paid, including home, family, and caster, the mercenary did not manage the objective that Tramennis sacrificed so much for. Add to this that manipulation Charlie did on the battlefield without clearing any of his stunts with Jetstone.


This part is not quite accurate. Charlie had two objectives at Jetstone. Firstly, to ingratiate himself to the RCC which was boycotting him due to Stanley/Ansom's serendipitous toolism smack talk. Secondly, he needed to destroy the decrypted army since it was wiping out his clientele (which he needs to keep his Archons alive). Charlie had no allies at the battle because no one was talking to him, and thus couldn't clear any activity with anyone. Everything Tramennis sacrificed for was to save his faction, and it worked, my goodness somehow it worked.

Remember, Parson wasn't even supposed to be there. All that trap business was on the fly and dealt with explicitly through Clonely. Obviously, from this update, Charlie had told him about it in one of the previous two calls at which point Tramennis had sacrificed... nothing else. The city, Clonely, and the troops left behind would all be lost anyway. The gambit to take out Parson entailed no sacrifice to Tramennis's faction (Spacerock now I guess?).

Everything else was spot on. Charlie needs Tramennis to vouch for him with the RCC if he want to keep his airforce. Tramennis knows this and is leveraging it against him, unjustly even. Way to go Tram, you player!
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby TheChaplin » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:08 am

Actually, re-reading it, only one of Tramennis's accusations is even true, the manipulation of Haggar. But truth is not even the point in diplomacy, it's about getting what you want from another side. Hmm, if this works and Charlie acquiesces, I suppose that would be concrete proof of Tram's diplomatic skill.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Tonot » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:33 am

0beron wrote:Yes....this is a King of Jetstone I could get excited about :)
.

I agree of course, I like the man, and I want to see him become the cool and interesting character he is crying out to be . . .

(Aw , come on, you know I'mma saying but! ") )

To quote the awesome and horribly dangerous “Logen Ninefingers, infamous barbarian”; "Always appear less than you are". If you have an opponent and the opponent thinks he has you fooled and is calculating that you are his bitch and a mug and easily tricked etc . . . you let him run with his mistake, even act a little like you are eating up his trickery . . . you DO NOT begin to negotiate by warning them that you have discovered their ploys and are rough tough and hard enough.

You wipe the "sweat" off the palm of your sword hand, and look about to check the exits, shift your feet and stammer a little right up to the very second before you strike with all your strength and little warning.

What has he done, really, but send Charlie away aware that he has till the morning to come up with MORE ploys to trick Jetstone with?.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby elecampane » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:12 am

That was pretty badass!

Also, is Tramennis's signamancy already changing to more regal? If I remember correctly, it took more time with Jillian, but that's because she resisted it fiercely.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Oliolli » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:32 am

So we've got Charlie de Gaulle and... I'm not sure, Tramennis' armor beneath that robe looks a bit roman-y. I'm sure someone who has studied that timeperiod more could tell.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby meatmountain27 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:53 am

TheChaplin wrote:Actually, re-reading it, only one of Tramennis's accusations is even true, the manipulation of Haggar. But truth is not even the point in diplomacy, it's about getting what you want from another side. Hmm, if this works and Charlie acquiesces, I suppose that would be concrete proof of Tram's diplomatic skill.


I disagree. I believe Tramennis is accusing in good faith.
Faq: Tramennis had a lengthy discussion with the Queen Jillian. She stated she didn't trust Charlie, but was able to admit to being "backed" by him, even though she was under contract not to disclose the fact. She was also able to disclose that Charlie's main focus is to "take down" GK, not help Jetstone.
Jetstone: Charlie obviously knew what forces GK was bringing to battle, but didn't let Jetstone know. I say obviously because Charlie has shown Haggar just how good his intel is and I defy you to show a competent Charlie would lack the same intel on the GK forces. Charlie was happy to let the Jetstone forces leave their capital to bottleneck the GK seige. This lured GK to divide their army and commit their flying forces, including the archons and Wanda, to the capital where, unbeknownst, his own flying counter awaited. How could Charlie guess that Parson would get paranoid and advise that Wanda scout first. I think the Kingworld spell is further proof of this plan of Charlie's, as it had to be prepared in advance. Charlie knew that losing Wanda would be a major blow for GK.

Further evidence that I believe show Charlie's direct interest and manipulation:
1) Charlie knows Parson has been promoted to Warlord before Parson arrives on the scene. And shares it with Tramennis. So he has some form of eyes on the GK capital.
2) Charlie is compromising Maggie's thinkamancy communications, so he is able to better adapt his plans on the fly to bring down GK.
3) Charlie puts both Tramennis and Jillian on hold while he is listening to Parson relate his solution to save the GK flying forces, and then informs Jillian that Jetstone is in trouble if she doesn't go back.
4) Charlie has Jojo waiting for Parson in the MK with the scroll. Charlie was all over Maggie's G-string ;) and the encryption wasn't good enough. Plan within a plan.
5) When things are about to get ugly in the MK, Charlie convinces Jojo to assist Parson in getting to Jetstone (direct evidence Charlie is getting real time intel).
6) Charlie specifically prepares the Slately clone for Parson's arrival and primes his trap.
7) Once Parson is cut off from the MK, Charlie knows when Parson is asking for help out of the fryer and cuts GK communication off completely.
I could go on and on.

Funny thing is that all this is causing Charlie to make some fundamental errors. The most prominent is not understanding Jillian's true motivations until far to late and underestimating Tramennis by not guarding his wording in his thinkspace calls more closely. Charlie seems to have a weakness in handling non-standard royals!
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