Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby meatmountain27 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:58 am

Oh. And focusing Parson on him. The biggest boo boo of all.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Nargrakhan » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:16 am

meatmountain27 wrote:Funny thing is that all this is causing Charlie to make some fundamental errors. The most prominent is not understanding Jillian's true motivations until far to late and underestimating Tramennis by not guarding his wording in his thinkspace calls more closely. Charlie seems to have a weakness in handling non-standard royals!


I think another huge mistake, is by Parson surviving, Parson has become more aware (and properly paranoid) of Charlie's powers. Charlie is going to lose the advantage of "real time" intel against GK (among other things), because the cat's out the bag for them. When the enemy knows their mail is being read, they can do something about it.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lawence of Awabia » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:47 am

Don't remember if this has been said before, but this update observes that the Jetstone crown blocks thinkamancy. That's Chekov's Gun, right there. Well, OK, Chekov's Giant-Brain-Shaped-Hat.

At some point, Tramennis is going to go head to head with Charlie, because he can. This is endgame stuff, I think, so we won't see it happen for a while. But I think that's where this is headed: Parson and Trammennis together against Charlie's greater threat.

Heck, Jetstone even communicates via hat magic, which Charlie can't hack. I wonder if even Charlie realizes how well set up Trammennis is for fighting Charlescomm...
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Werebiscuit » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:38 am

Lawence of Awabia wrote:Don't remember if this has been said before, but this update observes that the Jetstone crown blocks thinkamancy. That's Chekov's Gun, right there. Well, OK, Chekov's Giant-Brain-Shaped-Hat.

At some point, Tramennis is going to go head to head with Charlie, because he can. This is endgame stuff, I think, so we won't see it happen for a while. But I think that's where this is headed: Parson and Trammennis together against Charlie's greater threat.

Heck, Jetstone even communicates via hat magic, which Charlie can't hack. I wonder if even Charlie realizes how well set up Trammennis is for fighting Charlescomm...



Erm.. it may well be a checkov's gun...but maybe not in the way you're thinking.

The crown blocks thinkamancy... it doesn't protect channels of communication it destroys them. OK, maybe it also protects against thinkamancy attacks but it isn't unique in that, it was GIVEN those powers by Ace and Cubbins. That means that Parson only has to hire a hatamancer and he can have his own think cap. Or maybe he can have Ace look at the eyebooks with Maggie...no need for Trammennis. ( much as we would love to see him strut his stuff with Parson)

Just wanted to clear up possible misunderstandings.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Werebiscuit » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:58 am

Werebiscuit wrote: Or maybe he can have Ace look at the eyebooks with Maggie...no need for Trammennis. .

Er
..now that I come to think of it..that might not work. For the reason stated on the crown. it blocks thinkamancy. Blocking the eyebooks wold prevent them from working.

Hadn't thought that one through.... :oops:
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby jbevermore » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:59 am

Had to dig up my old forum account to say this.

The more of the new art I see the more confident I am that the comic is in good hands. I was honestly nervous at first because of how high Xin set the bar but things seem to be coming together.

Second...Tramennis is awesome. S'all I got on that one.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Free Radical » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:19 am

meatmountain27 wrote:4) Charlie has Jojo waiting for Parson in the MK with the scroll. Charlie was all over Maggie's G-string ;) and the encryption wasn't good enough. Plan within a plan.

G-string passive communication between thinkamancers is possibly still relatively secure. Parson had to communicate the plan to Jack and Wanda by thinkagram (it's why they knew to meet him in the portal room, after all), which is what we already know Charlie has been hacking.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby No one in particular » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:49 pm

The more I think about this update, the more it makes sense.

I mean, whenever I saw Charlie before, I always thought to myself "Wow! De Gaulle of dat guy!" :D
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Tonot » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:57 pm

lol. We need a drum-roll smilie. :P
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby BakaGrappler » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:05 am

Congratulations, Charlie. You have successfully manipulated onto the throne of Jetstone the one and only King in Erfworld that is both daring enough to tell you to go fuck yourself, and smart enough to not only get away with it, but very clearly show you that it's your own fault that you're getting your ass chewed out.

Well done, Charlie.

It's seriously not your best day on the playing field.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Amur_Tiger » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:55 am

No one in particular wrote:To be fair, Jetstone had it's keister hauled out of the Inferno by Charlie more than anything else.

  • GK totally bypassed Jetstone's forces, and were parked over the City. Who ended their Turn, trapping them in the airspace? Charlie.
  • Who told them NOT to talk to GK or give them time to do anything? Charlie.
  • Haggar had no intention of helping Jetstone. They were going to let GK & J duke it out and pounce on the winner. Who forced them into action, giving Jillian a chance to capture Ansom and cripple GK by taking the Chief Warlord bonus? Charlie.
  • Who offered the bounties that let Slately name an Heir, after the plea to TV fell through? Charlie.
  • Tramennis TOLD Slately to escape the City; it was Slately who refused and rode into battle with the Archons. Charlie's plans had nothing to do with it.


Thing is as much as Charlie's helping and as much as his help may be needed he's got no skin in the game and is strategically opaque, that's a pretty fundamental problem and the sort of thing a hard-pressed Tram might decide to sue for peace over if he doesn't get the support & answers he thinks he deserves.

There's an excellent historical parallel to how Stalin and Roosevelt got on at first. While Roosevelt was undeniably providing support that was helping the USSR survive to fight another day there was no doubt that for every day the USSR kept fighting and bleeding the Germans white the easier the task would be when the US finally engaged the German army for real. Indeed in 42-43 even Churchill, who hated Stalin and communism was encouraging ( some ) supplies be sent to the USSR instead of the UK because he feared the fight he'd have to fight if the USSR either fell or sought terms for peace.

Likewise Jetstone may be getting help but that help pales in comparison to the cost of the fighting they're doing, sure they're not doing it for Charlie but Tram knows based on the free dossier on Parson and his actions in the battle that Charlie does have something to gain/lose in the outcome of this fight and if Tram's going to keep Jetstone doing the bulk of the fighting and the dying in this war he's in a position to demand one hell of a lot from Charlie.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Gish » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:55 am

Lawence of Awabia wrote:Don't remember if this has been said before, but this update observes that the Jetstone crown blocks thinkamancy. That's Chekov's Gun, right there. Well, OK, Chekov's Giant-Brain-Shaped-Hat.

At some point, Tramennis is going to go head to head with Charlie, because he can. This is endgame stuff, I think, so we won't see it happen for a while. But I think that's where this is headed: Parson and Trammennis together against Charlie's greater threat.

Heck, Jetstone even communicates via hat magic, which Charlie can't hack. I wonder if even Charlie realizes how well set up Trammennis is for fighting Charlescomm...



Actually, we learned in one of the recent updates with the Great Minds that, while not exactly hacking, a thinkamancer can read written details from a distance. It was the reason they made Parson leave his notes from the meeting in the temple. There are no forms of communication that are safe from advanced thinkamancy without having first gone through whatever brainwashing process the Great Minds have developed. Now, true, the crown itself would allow some freedom from local communication like speaking. A well placed Archon solves that. It might, but this isn't certain, allow the wearer to open a link with someone while still protecting them from OTHER outside viewers.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Sir Shadow » Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:26 am

Actually, their fear was that a Lookamancer might see the notes.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Althernai » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:37 am

Amur_Tiger wrote:Thing is as much as Charlie's helping and as much as his help may be needed he's got no skin in the game and is strategically opaque, that's a pretty fundamental problem and the sort of thing a hard-pressed Tram might decide to sue for peace over if he doesn't get the support & answers he thinks he deserves.

Indeed. The problem with Charlie is that while he's helping, it's not at all obvious why he's doing so or what his endgame is. From Jetstone's point of view, it's quite reasonable to mistrust him even though he saved their bacon this time around. As Tram said, Jetstone, Haggar and FAQ were all just pawns... and pawns often make a good sacrifice.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby LordAcme » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:03 pm

On a side note..

See? SEE? This is why I would buy Erfworld text novelizations. This is damn good writing, well over the quality that gets on the NYT best-seller list. I enjoy reading these as much as I do the graphic novel updates.

Rob, please consider it if you can. It would be a big effort, but less so than writing them from scratch, and I can promise you at least 1 full-set purchase/pledge.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby LordAcme » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:18 pm

Tonot wrote:
0beron wrote:Yes....this is a King of Jetstone I could get excited about :)
.

I agree of course, I like the man, and I want to see him become the cool and interesting character he is crying out to be . . .

(Aw , come on, you know I'mma saying but! ") )

To quote the awesome and horribly dangerous “Logen Ninefingers, infamous barbarian”; "Always appear less than you are". If you have an opponent and the opponent thinks he has you fooled and is calculating that you are his bitch and a mug and easily tricked etc . . . you let him run with his mistake, even act a little like you are eating up his trickery . . . you DO NOT begin to negotiate by warning them that you have discovered their ploys and are rough tough and hard enough.

You wipe the "sweat" off the palm of your sword hand, and look about to check the exits, shift your feet and stammer a little right up to the very second before you strike with all your strength and little warning.

What has he done, really, but send Charlie away aware that he has till the morning to come up with MORE ploys to trick Jetstone with?.


Well, he's not positioned himself so that his only options with Charlie are acquiesce to his plans as a false front, or attack Charlie directly. He has positioned Jetstone as a side which will only accept Charlie's help on their terms and with full disclosure (or as full as they can force from Charlie). Therefore Charlie's assistance will either directly serve their goals or be rejected, insulating their side from indirect manipulation. Jetstone gains Charlie's assistance or they gain his non-interference.

And very importantly, Charlie cannot force their cooperation by refusing assistance unless Jetstone is in dire straits. Tramennis just stole that march on him in an eyeblink.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:58 pm

Amur_Tiger wrote:Thing is as much as Charlie's helping and as much as his help may be needed he's got no skin in the game and is strategically opaque, that's a pretty fundamental problem and the sort of thing a hard-pressed Tram might decide to sue for peace over if he doesn't get the support & answers he thinks he deserves.

Indeed that's the undertone of it all. Tram CAN sue for peace. Remember GK's goals? Its world peace, not world domination. And GK needs allies. They need to show how good and trustworthy they are. They need to be able to say "See you can trust us. Look at how we treat our dire enemy!" Tram can absolutely say "Hey GK, I'm not the previous king. I wanted peace all along. Now we need a lot of assistance. We're sort of a fixer up side. Plus you don't need much money do you with that decryption and everything?" And walk away from the negotiations with tribute payments.
LordAcme wrote:And very importantly, Charlie cannot force their cooperation by refusing assistance unless Jetstone is in dire straits. Tramennis just stole that march on him in an eyeblink.
Yup. A more foolish king might not realize this. Or he might think that Jetstone is in dire straights. But they are actually in a very good position to sue for peace.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:36 pm

Lawence of Awabia wrote:Don't remember if this has been said before, but this update observes that the Jetstone crown blocks thinkamancy.

Nnnnnnnope.
Edit*
Or at least Clonleys crown didn't.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:01 pm

Ah, so it appears that Tram is mistaken about the Crown's abilities. Its almost like he doesn't know everything about a Hat Magic. But he surely does and this is a PLOT HOLE!

(For the record that was sarcasm. Tram is clearly not a secret master class Hat Magician. OR IS HE?!?)
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:04 am

Lamech wrote:Tram can absolutely say "Hey GK, I'm not the previous king. I wanted peace all along. Now we need a lot of assistance. We're sort of a fixer up side. Plus you don't need much money do you with that decryption and everything?" And walk away from the negotiations with tribute payments.
I can't believe that Tramennis would ever consider peace with Gobwin Knob, but even if he did he could never seriously pretend to have wanted peace all along. Just consider Book 2, Page 3. That is a lot of dog bowels. You don't just pretend dog bowels like that didn't happen. The Tramennis of that page was clearly not interested in the slightest possibility of diplomacy.

Lamech wrote:Ah, so it appears that Tram is mistaken about the Crown's abilities.
I seriously doubt he could be mistaken about that sort of thing, especially since he was there to witness a thinkagram happening through the crown. A far more likely explanation is that the crown grants the ability to block Thinkamancy when the wearer chooses to block it. Like any good tool, it is controlled by the person who is using it.
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