Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:24 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lamech wrote:Tram can absolutely say "Hey GK, I'm not the previous king. I wanted peace all along. Now we need a lot of assistance. We're sort of a fixer up side. Plus you don't need much money do you with that decryption and everything?" And walk away from the negotiations with tribute payments.
I can't believe that Tramennis would ever consider peace with Gobwin Knob, but even if he did he could never seriously pretend to have wanted peace all along. Just consider Book 2, Page 3. That is a lot of dog bowels. You don't just pretend dog bowels like that didn't happen. The Tramennis of that page was clearly not interested in the slightest possibility of diplomacy.

He was helping Jetstone bluff. It was always preferable for GK never to attack. A single unlucky archon blast or arrow could have killed a core caster and screwed the whole deal. One snowball later and game over. His mockery ran counter to the dire straights they were in. It was a projection of false confidence. Just like how Ossomer was boasting about their forces, Tram helped by not making their situation serious. At least that would be his total crap claim. He was probably just joking around.

Anyway he showed earlier that he did consider an alliance. He might be more than a bit annoyed now that they killed his father and burned his city, but he can consider it. And more to the point its a perfect bluffing card. From a pragmatic point of view an alliance is a perfectly viable strategy. Classic Tragedy of Commons. Doing nothing significantly boosts Jetstone's chances of making it through this.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Amur_Tiger » Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:26 am

Lamech wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
Lamech wrote:Tram can absolutely say "Hey GK, I'm not the previous king. I wanted peace all along. Now we need a lot of assistance. We're sort of a fixer up side. Plus you don't need much money do you with that decryption and everything?" And walk away from the negotiations with tribute payments.
I can't believe that Tramennis would ever consider peace with Gobwin Knob, but even if he did he could never seriously pretend to have wanted peace all along. Just consider Book 2, Page 3. That is a lot of dog bowels. You don't just pretend dog bowels like that didn't happen. The Tramennis of that page was clearly not interested in the slightest possibility of diplomacy.

He was helping Jetstone bluff. It was always preferable for GK never to attack. A single unlucky archon blast or arrow could have killed a core caster and screwed the whole deal. One snowball later and game over. His mockery ran counter to the dire straights they were in. It was a projection of false confidence. Just like how Ossomer was boasting about their forces, Tram helped by not making their situation serious. At least that would be his total crap claim. He was probably just joking around.

Anyway he showed earlier that he did consider an alliance. He might be more than a bit annoyed now that they killed his father and burned his city, but he can consider it. And more to the point its a perfect bluffing card. From a pragmatic point of view an alliance is a perfectly viable strategy. Classic Tragedy of Commons. Doing nothing significantly boosts Jetstone's chances of making it through this.


Honestly that doesn't even need to be a bluff for peace terms to be on the table now. Dog bowels were discussed before a veritable flurry of major tactical surprises that turned what looked to be a very promising battle into their favor into a strategic disaster that came within a hairs-breadth of ending the side. What's more there's been considerable strategic movement as Charlie's made it clear that he's involved in the war to a degree that it's clear that he's got something to gain or lose from the outcome, which given the nature of Charlie and the already prevalent distrust for him makes answering just what Charlie's got in the game really important.

Put simply, bluster or honest distaste towards GK before that battle doesn't really matter. Trem, as the leader of a side that's close to strategic collapse, can't rule anything out for the sake of pride and given his diplomatic tendencies as well as his keen eye for the core interests of his side I'd be shocked if peace wasn't' at least being considered, even if he's not sure how or if he can attain it.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:36 am

Lamech wrote:
Amur_Tiger wrote:Thing is as much as Charlie's helping and as much as his help may be needed he's got no skin in the game and is strategically opaque, that's a pretty fundamental problem and the sort of thing a hard-pressed Tram might decide to sue for peace over if he doesn't get the support & answers he thinks he deserves.

Indeed that's the undertone of it all. Tram CAN sue for peace. Remember GK's goals? Its world peace, not world domination. And GK needs allies. They need to show how good and trustworthy they are. They need to be able to say "See you can trust us. Look at how we treat our dire enemy!" Tram can absolutely say "Hey GK, I'm not the previous king. I wanted peace all along. Now we need a lot of assistance. We're sort of a fixer up side. Plus you don't need much money do you with that decryption and everything?" And walk away from the negotiations with tribute payments.
LordAcme wrote:And very importantly, Charlie cannot force their cooperation by refusing assistance unless Jetstone is in dire straits. Tramennis just stole that march on him in an eyeblink.
Yup. A more foolish king might not realize this. Or he might think that Jetstone is in dire straights. But they are actually in a very good position to sue for peace.

Is GK's goals world peace? Since when?
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:58 am

Lipkin wrote:Is GK's goals world peace? Since when?

Since forever, or at least since the end of Book One. But we really have no evidence that GK didn't seek alliance during the events prior to Book One when they were expanding. All we really know about that time is that GK grew large enough that it pissed off royal sides that a non-royal was getting too big for his britches, and then the RCC was formed to curb-stomp Stanley and GK. Even Vinny stated that the "offenses" of GK against Jetstone were nothing more than the killing of a couple of scouts, something which could easily happen when any two unled stacks encountered one another.

I've posted this before, but perhaps you've forgotten:

Queen Bea to Slately: They [GK] are pursuing the express aim of bringing all sides into a new alliance. What would that alliance have cost Unaroyal and Bea? Nothing except for the acceptance of her daughter as a person and not some abomination, and her desperate clinging to the concept that royal sides were somehow superior to every other side.

GK to Jetstone: We would greatly prefer alliance to conquest. What would alliance have cost Jetstone? Nothing other than their desperate clinging to the concept that royal sides were somehow superior to every other side.

GK has asked at least two royal sides that we are aware of for alliance, and have been rewarded with the violation of a peace parley to slay Princess Cruz and a complete and utter, mocking rejection of the very concept of an alliance to Ansom by his two brothers on the behalf of Jetstone. There's no reason at all to believe that they didn't seek alliance at any time prior to their overtures towards Bea and Slately (by way of Ansom and Trem).

But even if these were the only two cases where GK sought alliance, in both cases it was disastrous for the royal side involved which completely rejected the overture. And that's not GKs fault, now is it?
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:11 am

The Crown very likely does block Thinkamancy if the user wishes. When created, it was referred to as a "Thinking Cap" meaning that the enemy can't "fool or confound you." So Fool and Think would both be covered under that. In the case of a Thinkagram, that may mean the user is always aware a call is incoming but can chose to "hang up" immediately. Normally I assume the call would continue to "ring" until they accept.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:29 am

Oberon wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Is GK's goals world peace? Since when?

Since forever, or at least since the end of Book One. I've posted this before, but perhaps you've forgotten.

Queen Bea to Slately: They [GK] are pursuing the express aim of bringing all sides into a new alliance. What would that alliance have cost Unaroyal and Bea? Nothing except for the acceptance of her daughter as a person and not some abomination, and her desperate clinging to the concept that royal sides were somehow superior to every other side.

GK to Jetstone: We would greatly prefer alliance to conquest. What would alliance have cost Jetstone? Nothing other than their desperate clinging to the concept that royal sides were somehow superior to every other side.

GK has asked at least two royal sides that we are aware of for alliance, and have been rewarded with the violation of a peace parley to slay Princess Cruz and a complete and utter, mocking rejection of the very concept of an alliance to Ansom by his two brothers on the behalf of Jetstone. There's no reason at all to believe that they didn't seek alliance at any time prior to their overtures towards Bea and Slately (by way of Ansom and Trem).

But even if these were the only two cases where GK sought alliance, in both cases it was disastrous for the royal side involved. And that's not GKs fault, now is it?

I think it's worth mentioning that both your posted examples come from decrypted, and thus, from Wanda. I don't recall Stanley ever saying he had any interest in world peace. Both Wanda and Stanley are Toolists, but I think they take it to mean different things. Wanda is doing what she believes she is meant to do. She sees attuning as a sign of there being a plan. Stanley sees his attuning as a sign that he is awesome, which gives him permission to do whatever he wants. And Stanley is the ruler of Gobwin Knob. I don't think he gives a crap about world peace. Peace is boring.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:33 am

I think Stanley is easily manipulated, and Wanda acts with his complete authority, so I think her wishes represent a large majority of GK's MO. Stanley likes to fight...but fighting 1 v 20 isn't fun, and also your side can only grow so big before the economy takes a hit, so alliance and spin-offs can be appealing.
I think deep down, Stanley prefers the wilderness to structured combat. He just strikes me as the sort who would rather go exploring and fight wild animals instead of leading infantry against other sides.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:08 am

Lipkin wrote:Both Wanda and Stanley are Toolists, but I think they take it to mean different things. Wanda is doing what she believes she is meant to do. She sees attuning as a sign of there being a plan. Stanley sees his attuning as a sign that he is awesome, which gives him permission to do whatever he wants. And Stanley is the ruler of Gobwin Knob. I don't think he gives a crap about world peace.
I think that Stanley and Wanda are pretty much in agreement, probably because Wanda is good at convincing Stanley that her ideas are his ideas. Base on Book 1, Page 20, what Stanley wants is to gather the Arkentools, which seems to be Wanda's goal as well. As far as I'm aware we haven't had any revelations about Stanley's goals that suggest any other possibilities. Stanley has no reason to want to fight Jetstone, if Jetstone would just stop attacking Gobwin Knob. The only sides that Gobwin Knob cares about are the sides that either have Arkentools or are getting in the way of Gobwin Knob collecting Arkentools.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:18 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lamech wrote:Tram can absolutely say "Hey GK, I'm not the previous king. I wanted peace all along. Now we need a lot of assistance. We're sort of a fixer up side. Plus you don't need much money do you with that decryption and everything?" And walk away from the negotiations with tribute payments.
I can't believe that Tramennis would ever consider peace with Gobwin Knob, but even if he did he could never seriously pretend to have wanted peace all along. Just consider Book 2, Page 3. That is a lot of dog bowels. You don't just pretend dog bowels like that didn't happen. The Tramennis of that page was clearly not interested in the slightest possibility of diplomacy.


We saw later when jetstone had GK trapped in the airspace and thus in position to wipe out their forces that Tram was seriously considering ending it all with a non-agression pact.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:32 pm

Oberon wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Is GK's goals world peace? Since when?

Since forever, or at least since the end of Book One. But we really have no evidence that GK didn't seek alliance during the events prior to Book One when they were expanding. All we really know about that time is that GK grew large enough that it pissed off royal sides that a non-royal was getting too big for his britches, and then the RCC was formed to curb-stomp Stanley and GK. Even Vinny stated that the "offenses" of GK against Jetstone were nothing more than the killing of a couple of scouts, something which could easily happen when any two unled stacks encountered one another.

I've posted this before, but perhaps you've forgotten:

Queen Bea to Slately: They [GK] are pursuing the express aim of bringing all sides into a new alliance. What would that alliance have cost Unaroyal and Bea? Nothing except for the acceptance of her daughter as a person and not some abomination, and her desperate clinging to the concept that royal sides were somehow superior to every other side.

GK to Jetstone: We would greatly prefer alliance to conquest. What would alliance have cost Jetstone? Nothing other than their desperate clinging to the concept that royal sides were somehow superior to every other side.

GK has asked at least two royal sides that we are aware of for alliance, and have been rewarded with the violation of a peace parley to slay Princess Cruz and a complete and utter, mocking rejection of the very concept of an alliance to Ansom by his two brothers on the behalf of Jetstone. There's no reason at all to believe that they didn't seek alliance at any time prior to their overtures towards Bea and Slately (by way of Ansom and Trem).


Actually, thinking about it. Ansom's offer of allaince may not be considered and offer of Peace. Think of what "alliance" means and how it can be abused. Alliance means helping eachother out when fighting enemies, and GK was planning to continue their toolism crusade against all the other sides of erfworld... this means that any side that does not ally with GK, jetstone would be obligated to fight against. Cause if Jetstone refuses to fight, then GK can break off the alliance and go right back to destroying them. If Jetstone had accepted the alliance and the rest of the RCC did not, then Jetstone would be obligated to fight their former allies... and it they refused, then GK might break the alliance and once again turn their forces on Jetstone and threaten them with annihilation.

Think of how Ossomer got Haggar to join the RCC. Haggar did not want to ally with them and was instead quarrelsome... So Ossmoer took three cities and told them that they must ally with them against the tools, or Jetstone would conquer them. In a sense, and in much kinder words, Ansom was offering jetstone the same deal; either join our crusade for toolism, or we will simply conquer and decypt you. These are not deals for peace, these are ultimatums. Threats for compliance... Heck you might note that Ansom never tried to dumb down his offer of alliance to a non-aggression pact which would have maintained peace between the two sides, without either side having to give anything to the other to maintain that peace(non-aggression pact's come with penalty's attached for violating them, thus both sides must remain peaceful for the duration of the pact, and thus can not be abused). Basically this could be a reason why to reject offers of alliance under such circumstances... heck another example we know of would be Frenemy and Quisling; they threaten to break alliance and destroy goodminton if they did not surrender their treasurey... we'll maintain the alliance and keep the peace so long as you do what we say.


This could be why Tram did not make an attempt at diplomacy at the bridge. GK was here in force; they were the stronger side, and if Jetstone would not give them what they wanted, they were prepare to simply take it. This is why he felt that he COULD negotiate with GK in earnest when the GK air units were trapped in their airspace. Jetstone was not in a true position of strength... yes Tram thought the battle was certain, but not the war; even if they wiped out GK's forces, GK was still strong enough to win, even without decryption. So jetstone could still loose in the end; the war could go either way. Both sides were closer to even footing, and thus could make an honest negotiation that would end all hostilities.

But even if these were the only two cases where GK sought alliance, in both cases it was disastrous for the royal side involved which completely rejected the overture. And that's not GKs fault, now is it?

It sorta is, atleast in part, when you consider the fact that GK started this war in the first place
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby victor227 » Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:33 pm

MonteCristo wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
Lamech wrote:Tram can absolutely say "Hey GK, I'm not the previous king. I wanted peace all along. Now we need a lot of assistance. We're sort of a fixer up side. Plus you don't need much money do you with that decryption and everything?" And walk away from the negotiations with tribute payments.
I can't believe that Tramennis would ever consider peace with Gobwin Knob, but even if he did he could never seriously pretend to have wanted peace all along. Just consider Book 2, Page 3. That is a lot of dog bowels. You don't just pretend dog bowels like that didn't happen. The Tramennis of that page was clearly not interested in the slightest possibility of diplomacy.


We saw later when jetstone had GK trapped in the airspace and thus in position to wipe out their forces that Tram was seriously considering ending it all with a non-agression pact.


At the time he was considering it, it was because the format of the war was in position to change. They were about to reclaim the Arkenpliers, and put an end to Wanda and most of her decrypted. With that done, GK is back to being an extraordinarily powerful side with free Dwagons, but no real existential mandate to conquer the world. He was looking at peace because they still had a chance of losing even -after- those gains. They were about to turn it back into a 'normal' war by smacking down the 'Titanic mandate' that this whole 'Toolist' philosophy had spawned, and Tramennis' MO in that sort of war is to get a win, use it for leverage, and benefit his side by it.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:48 pm

victor227 wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:
Lilwik wrote:I can't believe that Tramennis would ever consider peace with Gobwin Knob, but even if he did he could never seriously pretend to have wanted peace all along. Just consider Book 2, Page 3. That is a lot of dog bowels. You don't just pretend dog bowels like that didn't happen. The Tramennis of that page was clearly not interested in the slightest possibility of diplomacy.


We saw later when jetstone had GK trapped in the airspace and thus in position to wipe out their forces that Tram was seriously considering ending it all with a non-agression pact.


At the time he was considering it, it was because the format of the war was in position to change. They were about to reclaim the Arkenpliers, and put an end to Wanda and most of her decrypted. With that done, GK is back to being an extraordinarily powerful side with free Dwagons, but no real existential mandate to conquer the world. He was looking at peace because they still had a chance of losing even -after- those gains. They were about to turn it back into a 'normal' war by smacking down the 'Titanic mandate' that this whole 'Toolist' philosophy had spawned, and Tramennis' MO in that sort of war is to get a win, use it for leverage, and benefit his side by it.


It would have only turned back into a normal war if Jetstone chose to just wipe out those forces; however a successful negotation would have ended with peace and ended the war. Yes jetstone might still loose the war, but GK would loose a very powerful asset and many resources aswell; thus both sides had a good reason to talk about an end to all hostilities. Non-aggression pact's go both ways; jetstone can not start up a new fight against GK just as GK can not start a new fight against jetstone. Who ever broke the pact would pay the penalty fee; a fee that was probably more than either side could afford or want to spend if they could afford it. Heck tram was even open to negotiation; he seemed uncertain if taking wanda aswell was necessary and thus would have been open to letting her stay with GK

Tramennis' MO in that sort of war is to get a win, use it for leverage, and benefit his side by it.

really, was GK not doing the same thing to jetstone? They had gained multiple victories over jetstone, taking many of their cities and were now prepared to take the captiol and were then offering alliance. Is that not the same as "getting a win and using it for leverage to benefit their side"... though a difference with Tram and GK is that Tram would have asked for a lot less and was not making as big a threat. Tram wanted to ask for an end to hostilities and one artifact or they would wipe out a valuable portion of their forces(with the knowledge that the loss was not big enough to loose the war, and thus GK could still beat the RCC); GK was asking for Jetstone to join them or have their side completely wiped out
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby victor227 » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:34 pm

You can actually go read the comic. He says it himself. He wanted Wanda and the Arkenpliers off the table, but intended to leverage the rest of her merry band in exchange for a very tightly bound peace with Goblin Knob. His precise line was that "The war changes today. Ends in some senses." Decryption is just too powerful for the RCC to ignore; the whole anti-royal rhetoric and religion popping up around Wanda even moreso.

Still, its his interactions with Charlie that I find more interesting. He has the willpower and savvy to leverage even the ignominious defeat at Spacerock into a tool to drag more information from Charlescomm. For the last... well, year, we've been getting little peeks and pokes behind the curtain at just who Charlie is, and what motivates him. This seems to be yet another poke, might even tear the whole thing down this time.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:48 pm

Lipkin wrote:I think it's worth mentioning that both your posted examples come from decrypted, and thus, from Wanda. I don't recall Stanley ever saying he had any interest in world peace. Both Wanda and Stanley are Toolists, but I think they take it to mean different things. Wanda is doing what she believes she is meant to do. She sees attuning as a sign of there being a plan. Stanley sees his attuning as a sign that he is awesome, which gives him permission to do whatever he wants. And Stanley is the ruler of Gobwin Knob. I don't think he gives a crap about world peace. Peace is boring.
I hear what you're saying, but I don't see your point. You don't believe that Ossomer and Trem refused Ansom's offer for alliance in defiance of Slately's wishes, do you? The field units may have broad discretion, especially the CWL, but they aren't the King or Overlord. They don't make policy. Are you claiming that the GK expeditionary force is running around trying to form alliances with royal sides against Stanleys' wishes? If so, I'd like to see something in-comic which supports that.

Otherwise, my two examples stand perfectly fine as efforts GK has made to avoid war and to try to form alliances. You really can't look at the words of Bea to Don King "[GK] are pursuing the express aim of bringing all sides into a new alliance" and then claim that they mean something completely different.

MonteCristo wrote:Alliance means helping eachother out when fighting enemies, and GK was planning to continue their toolism crusade against all the other sides of erfworld.
See, now you're just making shit up. How does "the express aim of bringing all sides into an alliance" and "we would greatly prefer alliance to conquest" even hint at "continuing their toolism crusade against all the other sides"?

You can't ignore the stated goals and substitute them with your own meaning without the slightest bit of evidence and think that you've got a credible point.


MonteCristo wrote:
Oberon wrote:But even if these were the only two cases where GK sought alliance, in both cases it was disastrous for the royal side involved which completely rejected the overture. And that's not GKs fault, now is it?

It sorta is, atleast in part, when you consider the fact that GK started this war in the first place
Except that GK didn't start the war. Jetstone had a couple of scouts killed in the field, looked over at GK and decided that no non-royal side should be successful, and formed the RCC to curbstomp them out of existence. That came straight from Vinny, and he was speaking to Ansom. If it wasn't true, Ansom would have denied it, but he didn't. There was no mention of Jetstone trying to open negotiations with GK, and plenty of evidence that they would never consider even thinking about doing so with some peasant ruler like Stanley.

So we have established by very reliable narrators that:
A) The hurt GK did to Jetstone was both negligible and possible unpreventable given the auto-attack which unled units are forced into;
B) The Jetstone response was in no way proportional;

A couple of units lost and it's suddenly a war of genocide!
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:07 pm

victor227 wrote:You can actually go read the comic. He says it himself. He wanted Wanda and the Arkenpliers off the table, but intended to leverage the rest of her merry band in exchange for a very tightly bound peace with Goblin Knob. His precise line was that "The war changes today. Ends in some senses." Decryption is just too powerful for the RCC to ignore; the whole anti-royal rhetoric and religion popping up around Wanda even moreso.


He was making a proposition not a final deal. That's what negotiation and diplomacy is for. And ya at the very least they would keep the arken pliers to stop decryption... so what? In a lot of cases, even in the real world, we like to see our enemies disarmed of their most powerful weapons before we make peace. When it comes down to it, he's pursuing a genuine and earnest peace deal. The war ending is what you get when you have a peace deal. How is this a bad thing?

Oberon wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Alliance means helping eachother out when fighting enemies, and GK was planning to continue their toolism crusade against all the other sides of erfworld.
See, now you're just making shit up. How does "the express aim of bringing all sides into an alliance" and "we would greatly prefer alliance to conquest" even hint at "continuing their toolism crusade against all the other sides"?

You can't ignore the stated goals and substitute them with your own meaning without the slightest bit of evidence and think that you've got a credible point.


Um, because the alternative to "alliance" is "Conquest". They are planning to bring the whole world into one big allied side... and what happens when a side says "no". Well then its time for Conquest. Join us or die and then be reanimated as part of our army.

Ansome was giving Jetstone and ultimatum... If you do not ally with us, then we will take your capitol and end your side.
If GK was not expecting anything from jetstone aside from peace, then why is the alternative to alliance "conquest" when there are other means to end all aggressions and have peace?
They greatly prefer Alliance to conquest, but no where to they say they would settle for a simple end to hostilities.

MonteCristo wrote:
Oberon wrote:But even if these were the only two cases where GK sought alliance, in both cases it was disastrous for the royal side involved which completely rejected the overture. And that's not GKs fault, now is it?

It sorta is, atleast in part, when you consider the fact that GK started this war in the first place
Except that GK didn't start the war. Jetstone had a couple of scouts killed in the field, looked over at GK and decided that no non-royal side should be successful, and formed the RCC to curbstomp them out of existence. That came straight from Vinny, and he was speaking to Ansom. If it wasn't true, Ansom would have denied it, but he didn't. There was no mention of Jetstone trying to open negotiations with GK, and plenty of evidence that they would never consider even thinking about doing so with some peasant ruler like Stanley.

So we have established by very reliable narrators that:
A) The hurt GK did to Jetstone was both negligible and possible unpreventable given the auto-attack which unled units are forced into;
B) The Jetstone response was in no way proportional;

A couple of units lost and it's suddenly a war of genocide!

The war is bigger than just Jetstone and GK. GK lashed out at others and those others pushed back and Jetstone decided to join them. Ya Jetstone didn't have much of a reason to fight GK themselves, but there were joining a fight that GK DID start. If GK didn't want a fight they shouldn't have started one. Heck given vinnie's implications, Transilvito IS a side that Stanely hit hard enough to warrant a fight back; so ya there are members of the RCC that were indeed fighting because Stanely hit them first. Not to mention that Jetstone and Transivito seem to have a long standing relationship... you mess with a friend and the others will come after you.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lt. Cmdr. Chuvox » Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:59 pm

FlyinFungi wrote:We are seeing the diplomatic son drop the diplomatic balls of steel. Can't wait to see how his relationship with Charlie plays out and if Charlie will manipulate the information he gives to his advantage (I guess yes). Love the voice acting on Tramennis, fits him perfectly.

So what do you guys think Charlie's strategy is?


I've been away doing stuff, spending time with the family, appearing on game shows, etc., but I just wanted to say thanks for the compliment on my voice work! (Feels like I've been waiting years for someone to say something about it, good or bad... :P )
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:29 am

Oberon wrote:
Lipkin wrote:I think it's worth mentioning that both your posted examples come from decrypted, and thus, from Wanda. I don't recall Stanley ever saying he had any interest in world peace. Both Wanda and Stanley are Toolists, but I think they take it to mean different things. Wanda is doing what she believes she is meant to do. She sees attuning as a sign of there being a plan. Stanley sees his attuning as a sign that he is awesome, which gives him permission to do whatever he wants. And Stanley is the ruler of Gobwin Knob. I don't think he gives a crap about world peace. Peace is boring.
I hear what you're saying, but I don't see your point. You don't believe that Ossomer and Trem refused Ansom's offer for alliance in defiance of Slately's wishes, do you? The field units may have broad discretion, especially the CWL, but they aren't the King or Overlord. They don't make policy. Are you claiming that the GK expeditionary force is running around trying to form alliances with royal sides against Stanleys' wishes? If so, I'd like to see something in-comic which supports that.

Otherwise, my two examples stand perfectly fine as efforts GK has made to avoid war and to try to form alliances. You really can't look at the words of Bea to Don King "[GK] are pursuing the express aim of bringing all sides into a new alliance" and then claim that they mean something completely different.


My point is, you said GK is fighting for world peace. I disagree. Stanley has never been gung ho about uniting the world under one banner. That's Wanda's kick. Stanley is a simple guy, with simple goals. He never saw the hammer as a entitling him to anything other than what the hammer itself could give him. He didn't like being looked down on by the royals, and now he is out to prove himself their equal or better. Stanley and Wanda are united in purpose, but not in cause. I don't think Stanley cares about peace on way or another, as long as he's respected, or at the least, feared.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:04 am

Lipkin wrote:Stanley has never been gung ho about uniting the world under one banner. That's Wanda's kick.
What exactly leads you to that conclusion? All that I've seen seems to suggest that Wanda is just interested in collecting Arkentools because she believes it's some sort of destiny. Maybe she even has a Prediction that leads her to think she has to do this, or maybe she's just a little nuts, but either way uniting the world doesn't seem to be on her radar.

Lipkin wrote:Stanley is a simple guy, with simple goals. He never saw the hammer as a entitling him to anything other than what the hammer itself could give him.
No, Stanley thinks the hammer makes him a tool of the Titans and his mission to collect the Arkentools is a task that he is doing for the Titans. Ansom wasn't just a royal who looked down on Stanley; Ansom was bringing the pliers to Stanley as part of the Titans' grand plan, or at least that's what Stanley thought in Book 1, Page 32.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:19 am

MonteCristo wrote:Ansome was giving Jetstone and ultimatum... If you do not ally with us, then we will take your capitol and end your side.
If GK was not expecting anything from jetstone aside from peace, then why is the alternative to alliance "conquest" when there are other means to end all aggressions and have peace?
They greatly prefer Alliance to conquest, but no where to they say they would settle for a simple end to hostilities.

"Alliance" in Erfworld does not mean the same thing it does in English. (Just like "artifact", or "barter system"). An Alliance agreement is a peace agreement. Otherwise when you send out a group of farmers and run into their farmers they murder each other. We haven't seen any other way to have peace between the normal people. An alliance is a peace agreement. We see no other evidence an alliance has any other effect.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby multilis » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:24 pm

Lamech wrote:..."Alliance" in Erfworld does not mean the same thing it does in English...

Alliance in Erfworld means you share a dumb blonde with a big sword and she goes around doing crazy things and others respond with crazy things. It is sort of like a big group dance, and you never know if you will win or lose. If no blonde available you can substitute for black haired crazy girl. Proof: every alliance so far has one.

Still unknown: We don't yet know if hair color decides which side the crazy girl is on. Blonde may mean your side, black hair may mean shared enemy you dance around, but not enough alliances to be sure.
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