Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:34 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Stanley is a simple guy, with simple goals. He never saw the hammer as a entitling him to anything other than what the hammer itself could give him.
No, Stanley thinks the hammer makes him a tool of the Titans and his mission to collect the Arkentools is a task that he is doing for the Titans.
Question is though, how much of that is the result of Wanda's (or Maggie's even) manipulation? Wanda is using him to achieve her goals, and Maggie props up his ego to keep him functioning. I think that deep down he is a simple guy, but Rulership and outside influence have changed him into projecting something he doesn't truly believe. I mean, hell, at the beginning of Book 1 he was using the 'Hammer to bust a nut...it wasn't until Wanda got a 'Tool too that he started saying all these grand ideas so that he wouldn't feel inferior anymore.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Werebiscuit » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:58 pm

0beron wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Stanley is a simple guy, with simple goals. He never saw the hammer as a entitling him to anything other than what the hammer itself could give him.
No, Stanley thinks the hammer makes him a tool of the Titans and his mission to collect the Arkentools is a task that he is doing for the Titans.
Question is though, how much of that is the result of Wanda's (or Maggie's even) manipulation? Wanda is using him to achieve her goals, and Maggie props up his ego to keep him functioning. I think that deep down he is a simple guy, but Rulership and outside influence have changed him into projecting something he doesn't truly believe. I mean, hell, at the beginning of Book 1 he was using the 'Hammer to bust a nut...it wasn't until Wanda got a 'Tool too that he started saying all these grand ideas so that he wouldn't feel inferior anymore.


I'm not disagreeing with the characterization of Stanley being a simple guy but your timing is out. His statement that Ansom was bringing him (Stanley) the pliers, to Parson, is obviously made while Ansom still has pliers and thus before Wanda acquires them. Stanley is certainly painted as an incompetent early on and it may have took Wanda's pliers powers coupled to Parsons genius for him to see the possibilities of world conquest.
So we can only speculate whether he was corrupted by Wanda, Maggie or even the possibility of power to engage on world conquest or indeed if he is even on a mission of world conquest or will be content just to gain the known arkentools. We do know that certain other factions have a goal of world peace ( the predictamencers + hippiemancers ) but we don't know enough of the others goals (Wanda Maggie & GMTTA or indeed Charlie) to know how their goals align with that in the endgame.
Wanda seems to think she's fated to bring the tools together but we've not seen any such prediction of that in comic ( at least that I can remember) to give her that impression. So whether that's stanley manipulating her is also a possibility we could speculate on .... not one that i'd care to bet on tho :D
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby the_tick_rules » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:09 pm

Uh oh, looks lke more people are doubting charlie.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:02 pm

Well Wanda already did manipulate him into starting the war in the first place. What I'm referring to is the slight shift in attitude between "This 'Hammer is cool and makes me personally special" to "This 'Hammer means I'm supposed to rule the world." I don't think the latter really happened until after Wanda actually got the 'Pliers.

Wanda has been on the whole Fate kick with the 'Tools ever since Marie gave her the prediction, before Stanley.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:04 pm

0beron wrote:Well Wanda already did manipulate him into starting the war in the first place. What I'm referring to is the slight shift in attitude between "This 'Hammer is cool and makes me personally special" to "This 'Hammer means I'm supposed to rule the world." I don't think the latter really happened until after Wanda actually got the 'Pliers.

Wanda has been on the whole Fate kick with the 'Tools ever since Marie gave her the prediction, before Stanley.

I'm not convinced that latter has happened at all.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby victor227 » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:15 pm

Wasn't it mentioned at one point that it wasn't until they got Wanda that GK started stabbing out in every direction against their neighbors in search of the other tools? We know back from Book 1 that Wanda was certainly going all out to manipulate him, the illogical lack of tactical soundness to GK's aggression is also her hallmark. She tends to keep knowledge close to her chest, and rely on Fate to cover everything.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Sir Shadow » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:31 pm

It wasn't until King Saline IV croaked and Stanley took over that that happened, but yes, that was after Wanda had joined the Side.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby wih » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:41 pm

0beron wrote:Well Wanda already did manipulate him into starting the war in the first place. What I'm referring to is the slight shift in attitude between "This 'Hammer is cool and makes me personally special" to "This 'Hammer means I'm supposed to rule the world." I don't think the latter really happened until after Wanda actually got the 'Pliers.


It happened prior to Comic 1, not post-Pliers. It's why the RCC was formed in the first place, because Stanley thought his attunement to the Hammer game him more right to Erfworld than the Royals, and he was making moves on them. He destroyed a couple of sides (I remember Milquetoast being mentioned).
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:46 pm

I'm not so sure. I think if you read back, you will find his Book 1 motivations are more personal. Hating Ansom and Royals for looking down on him, etc etc. At some point I feel there was a shift from "This 'Hammer makes me B.A., I should beat up people with it and get more fun toys like it." to "I was given this 'Hammer because the Titans WANT me to beat people up with it."
You're right that Wanda manipulated him before Book 1, that's what I was saying. But I feel there is a shift in attitude later on, which is IMO partially inspired by what Wanda is actually saying about Fate rubbing off on Stanley, and also his inferiority complex that we plainly see in a few updates.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:59 pm

0beron wrote:Well Wanda already did manipulate him into starting the war in the first place. What I'm referring to is the slight shift in attitude between "This 'Hammer is cool and makes me personally special" to "This 'Hammer means I'm supposed to rule the world." I don't think the latter really happened until after Wanda actually got the 'Pliers.
You can believe what you will, but you don't have the luxury of inventing fake facts to support your belief.

"We would greatly prefer alliance to conquest" and "[GK] are pursuing the express aim of bringing all sides into a new alliance" cannot be credibly translated into "This 'Hammer means I'm supposed to rule the world."

You do not rule your allies. Jetstone never rules Unaroyal, or TV, or any of the other sides in the RCC. Jetstone has used alliance to force concessions, that's supposed to be Trem's specialty after all, and they did a decent number on Haggar even if that was doomed to failure in the end and would have resulted in war with Haggar without Charlies' intervention. So while there can be a claim that an alliance can be used to manipulate, I don't think there is any evidence that GK has ever used an alliance in that manner, or has any intention of doing so in the future. Leave that kind of double-dealing to the royals who are so much better at it.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:33 pm

Lamech wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Ansome was giving Jetstone and ultimatum... If you do not ally with us, then we will take your capitol and end your side.
If GK was not expecting anything from jetstone aside from peace, then why is the alternative to alliance "conquest" when there are other means to end all aggressions and have peace?
They greatly prefer Alliance to conquest, but no where to they say they would settle for a simple end to hostilities.

"Alliance" in Erfworld does not mean the same thing it does in English. (Just like "artifact", or "barter system"). An Alliance agreement is a peace agreement. Otherwise when you send out a group of farmers and run into their farmers they murder each other. We haven't seen any other way to have peace between the normal people. An alliance is a peace agreement. We see no other evidence an alliance has any other effect.


Yes like the peace that Goodminton had with Frenemy and Quisling... Or the peace that Jestone forced haggar into by threatening to conquer them. I was not examine how WE use alliance, but how its been used in erfworld. An alliance is not necessarily a peace agreement, its a mutual military arrangement. Allies move on the same turn thus allow them to move their forces at the same time and thus fight together in battle. Its commonly used for those with friendly relations and mutual enemies, but it is possible to break alliance and attack the former ally; this HAS been used to force concessions on weaker allies as we saw in book 1 with Goodminton and its "allies"

And we do know a peaceful alternative to an alliance; A non-aggression pact. No reason to think the pact is anything that what it sounds like, an agreement that neither side will attack the other, and if they do they will be faced with an agreed upon penalty. No aggression, is peaceful. Though unlike an alliance, their is no obligation to support the other side you made a pact with.


Though to be fair, i must correct one thing i said earlier (or something i had not taken into account); it is possible to bound an alliance to a penalty clause just like the non-aggression pact; haffaton offered a short term alliance to goodminton in exchange for Wanda... though given Haggar's plans, frenemy's and quisling's attempt, and the fact that goodminton suffered no penalty from breaking alliance to strike first at their betrayers, it is not common to add a penalty to such arrangements. And nothing suggests Ansom was offering an alliance with a penalty clause attached(or one that GK could not afford). And this does not change the fact that Ansom threatened to wipe out Jetstone if they did not agree to their alliance...

Oberon wrote:You do not rule your allies. Jetstone never rules Unaroyal, or TV, or any of the other sides in the RCC. Jetstone has used alliance to force concessions, that's supposed to be Trem's specialty after all, and they did a decent number on Haggar even if that was doomed to failure in the end and would have resulted in war with Haggar without Charlies' intervention. So while there can be a claim that an alliance can be used to manipulate, I don't think there is any evidence that GK has ever used an alliance in that manner, or has any intention of doing so in the future. Leave that kind of double-dealing to the royals who are so much better at it.


Except what Ansom was offering jetstone was no different that what Ossomer offered Haggar. Ossomer told haggar straight, "if you do not ally with us, we will conquer your side"... Ansom pretty much offered the same thing, but in much nicer words. He offered them alliance and if Jetstone turned down the offer, then they would be conquered.

Heck after Ossomer was captured, he pointed out that Ansom always had the option to just turn around and go home. Thinking about it, they could end the fighting without an alliance; heck they could just agree to non-aggression and thus put the war to an end, agreeing to not mess in eachother's affairs... But Ansom wanted to push forward. If Jetstone would not join GK willingly, then they would do so by FORCE. Croak and decrypt.
Last edited by MonteCristo on Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby wih » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:01 pm

0beron wrote:I'm not so sure. I think if you read back, you will find his Book 1 motivations are more personal. Hating Ansom and Royals for looking down on him, etc etc. At some point I feel there was a shift from "This 'Hammer makes me B.A., I should beat up people with it and get more fun toys like it." to "I was given this 'Hammer because the Titans WANT me to beat people up with it."
You're right that Wanda manipulated him before Book 1, that's what I was saying. But I feel there is a shift in attitude later on, which is IMO partially inspired by what Wanda is actually saying about Fate rubbing off on Stanley, and also his inferiority complex that we plainly see in a few updates.


Part of that shift came from, IMO, the term "tool", given by Parson.
Either way, I suspect we'll find out by the end of Book 0.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:38 pm

Oberon wrote:You can believe what you will, but you don't have the luxury of inventing fake facts to support your belief.
Good, because that is not what I'm doing. I am stating my opinion of how Stanley seems to come across, and I very clearly delineated such as being opinion. Then, assuming I'm trying to posit my take as fact, you rebut with "evidence" in the form of statements from someone who is not Stanley, the subject of discussion. It's a total non sequitur. Just because Stanley's world view has been altered by Wanda's ideas does not mean Wanda/Decrypted and Stanley are necessarily both on the same page philosophically.

wih wrote:Part of that shift came from, IMO, the term "tool", given by Parson.
Hm that's a very good point. I definitely hope part 3 is Stanley's past, because we will get more insight into him, and also unit capabilities. Right now, he seems like mentally he's not cut out to Rule...so if he's always been the same way, then we know promotions don't make a unit better.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:40 pm

MonteCristo wrote:
And we do know a peaceful alternative to an alliance; A non-aggression pact. No reason to think the pact is anything that what it sounds like, an agreement that neither side will attack the other, and if they do they will be faced with an agreed upon penalty. No aggression, is peaceful. Though unlike an alliance, their is no obligation to support the other side you made a pact with.

Reference? Because the wiki, (which should have all the transcripts) has nothing of the sort listed, at least according to Google.
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... 3Aofficial

A search of the whole site lists a lot of forum posts, but nothing to the comic.
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... 3Aofficial
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby victor227 » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:23 am

0beron wrote:Hm that's a very good point. I definitely hope part 3 is Stanley's past, because we will get more insight into him, and also unit capabilities. Right now, he seems like mentally he's not cut out to Rule...so if he's always been the same way, then we know promotions don't make a unit better.


Personally I'm hoping for the big reveal where we finally get a peek behind the curtain at Charley himself. Still, Stanley is a much-diminished figure as a Ruler. He seems like the type who's more at his best when he's rocking out, taming dwagons, and busting nuts, it would definitely be good to see him when he didn't have that whole 'you're the single point of failure for an entire Side, you don't get to do anything' thing going on.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby wih » Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:36 am

0beron wrote:I definitely hope part 3 is Stanley's past, because we will get more insight into him, and also unit capabilities. Right now, he seems like mentally he's not cut out to Rule...so if he's always been the same way, then we know promotions don't make a unit better.


I believe (though I can't find a quote to back it up) that Book 0 was described as culminating in Stanley's rise to power, so it should at least cover his past. I'd be willing to be quatloos (though I believe I'm at cap) that it'd be his perspective. Perspective would have to be someone outside of FAQ who survive Saline's fall, and it's likely to be a named character. If not Stanley, then Sizemore or Maggie, or possibly Misty.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby MonteCristo » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:20 am

Lamech wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:
And we do know a peaceful alternative to an alliance; A non-aggression pact. No reason to think the pact is anything that what it sounds like, an agreement that neither side will attack the other, and if they do they will be faced with an agreed upon penalty. No aggression, is peaceful. Though unlike an alliance, their is no obligation to support the other side you made a pact with.

Reference? Because the wiki, (which should have all the transcripts) has nothing of the sort listed, at least according to Google.
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... 3Aofficial

A search of the whole site lists a lot of forum posts, but nothing to the comic.
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... 3Aofficial


Tram states there are non-agression contracts and state of non-agression was referenced in book 0
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:14 pm

The non-aggression contract was being used interchangably with "ally". The king talks about "ally", and Tram says its not absurd and explains his plan for the alliance. In book 0 the state of non-aggression was singled by, guess what, an alliance. In both cases the "non-aggression" was part of an alliance.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby MonteCristo » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:47 pm

Lamech wrote:The non-aggression contract was being used interchangably with "ally". The king talks about "ally", and Tram says its not absurd and explains his plan for the alliance. In book 0 the state of non-aggression was singled by, guess what, an alliance. In both cases the "non-aggression" was part of an alliance.


No, tram was not saying what his exact plan was, but talking about possible moves jetstone may or may not make in this given situation and what Charlie may or may not believe. He thinks that Charlie may fear jetstone allying with GK; Tram, given their sitaution sees the logic that they might do so... and while seeing that logic he then floats by the more Slately acceptable idea of just stopping the fight with non-aggression. He sees multiple options, or ways to bargain and use this leverage... i mean heck, Slately was actually seriously considering what Tram was telling him; do you really think Slately would EVER approve of ALLYING with Stanely? No, but just stopping the fight he MIGHT be more considerate of. Tram's PLAN was to speak with GK to see if they can bargain with them, and bargaining means being open to options, such as "alliance", "non-aggression", "trading" and so forth

Also, there is nothing to suggest that the book 0 non-aggression was signaled by maintaining their current alliance status. They WERE allied and frenemy and quisling threatened to break that alliance and attack (and goodminton did so first). Once goodminton broke alliance with Frenemy, Quisling was free to attack Goodminton if they wanted; the alliance was techncially broken even though not formally. When they chose not to shoot down Quisling that was a signal that they were willing to accept and non-aggressive state with them as opposed to open hostilities; it was NOT a signal that they wanted to maintain their alliance. Not to mention the fact that Quisling did NOT accept that silent offer since they allied with haffaton against Goodminton.

So nothing suggest that "Alliance" is the same thing as a "Non-aggression contract". And heck we also know from book 1 that contracts can create many kind of bounderies. Charlie for instance made a contract with Faq that he would not attack them or support those that did. Charlie was agreeing to never to be aggressive to faq. But no where did the contract force him to form an alliance to maintain that non-aggressive stance.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Arky » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:33 pm

I'm wonderng what Epilogue 25 is going to cover, before the long filler break which will inevitably be even longer than expected and which someone will inevitably refer to as The Winter Of Our Discontent at some stage so I'm trademarking it now.

In the book 1 to book 2 bridge, the final update was Jillian putting together the strike force for the Battle of Spacerock. It stands to reason that Epilogue 25 will also lay the table for the start of book 3. I'm inclined to say that means Parson, Wanda, Stanley or even Caesar making preparations for the Transylvito Uprising- which seems like it will definitely be an A-plot in book 3- but... I feel like this would be a killer time for a Charlie POV. Man, would THAT give us something to talk about!
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