Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Tonot » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:59 pm

No one in particular wrote:I took Charlie's "Um..." less as "What does that mean?" and more "Wait, are you just making a reference or do you KNOW that I used to be called the Wizard?"

Possibly with a hint of "Oh SHIT, he knows I used the be the Wizard! He has intel on my past! WHERE DID HE GET THIS OH GOD CAN'T SHOW WEAKNESS SAY SOMETHING"



Yeah, that is what I thought. My thoughts on reading it the first time were something like what you wrote, but maybe not as complex cause I ain't thought about the story as much as you.

I thought Parson said Wizard and Charlie was all "WHAT THE HELL ! OMG, does he know, what does that actually mean to him it could be a coincidence he might mean I am wizard good . . . arrrgh, this is the enemy super-general, he is poison, coincidence be damned, how much does he know . . . what do I do . . ." and so we got the absolute consummate communicator and manipulator saying "Um . . . " while his brain spun its wheels.

Be good for him, eventually, get his blood pumping like that. :P
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:03 pm

Yeah, that was Parson taking back the victory from Charlie. Well not really. Giving up key information like that probably isn't useful. But it does knock Charlie off balance a little. Now he needs to think "How does Parson know that?" Maybe Charlie will waste time spinning his wheels?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby brooksindy » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:49 pm

Newly joined, because I too thought those AA guns looked like Japanese triple 25mm.

http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_25mm-60_mg.htm

Which raises two points. One, those were pretty inadequate for the Japanese in WWII; I'd rather have 40mm Bofors. Two, the whole final panel to me felt like something that I haven't seen mentioned in the discussion pages so far, though admittedly I scrolled quickly. I felt there was a resemblance to certain recent Japanese animations, e.g. Girls und Panzer, or Arpeggio of Blue Steel (I'll let the interested look them up, rather than posting links).
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Vahir » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:58 pm

No doubt this has already been brought up, but have you guys noticed the opposing colors between the two sides? Everything Charlie is blue, while all decrypted units and generally those aligned with gobwin knob are red. Another sign that the two forces are heading for a full on collision?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:43 pm

Vahir wrote:No doubt this has already been brought up, but have you guys noticed the opposing colors between the two sides? Everything Charlie is blue, while all decrypted units and generally those aligned with gobwin knob are red. Another sign that the two forces are heading for a full on collision?

Interesting...
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Denar » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:35 pm

Wow, all that perfectly good crazy conspiracy speculation, thrown straight out of the window! So the red glow was just an oversight. Well, Charlie's still getting the captured Decrypted Archon to look at and study, seeing as: his Arkentool hasn't yet been given a thinkamancy problem it couldn't solve (well, thinkamancy-proof temple pending), Archons have an inherently powerful devotion to Charlie (even the decrypted ones in jetstone couldn't bring themselves to call him the enemy), and the Archon's huge distance from Wanda and her bonus, (so basically just like ever-loyal Ossomer turning the moment Wanda left jetstone) I have no doubt that Charlie will be able to turn her back to Charlescomm. Unless the magical thinkamancy link Wanda shares with her Archons means anything. And maybe Charlie will be able to use that?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby wih » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:25 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Vahir wrote:No doubt this has already been brought up, but have you guys noticed the opposing colors between the two sides? Everything Charlie is blue, while all decrypted units and generally those aligned with gobwin knob are red. Another sign that the two forces are heading for a full on collision?

Interesting...
Spoiler: show
ImageImage


More subtle hints of GK/TV vs. Charlie/FAQ? Interesting.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby IronBear » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:23 pm

"Barbarian Democracy"

"shamelessmerc" has a solid understanding of history. Before the American & French Revolutions, the idea of kingship & rulers was so ingrained in the Old World peoples that they could not even concieve of another way of doing things. He also makes points that I would think are obvious to everyone. Even the lowliest unit has a rich inner lives. They are all trying to understand the world using the tools they were given.

I personally think that such a system would never naturally occur in Erfworld. Even the highly moral Banhammer never took that step. Given how much he valued equality, it kind surprises me (but then again Banhammer sometimes mistaked lip service to an ideal as actual devotion to it). Also, the royals would quickly snuff out any attempt. Barbarian democracy would be a theological threat to Royalism, a refuge for abused subjects, and a 'side' with linear not expontential upkeep. If a barbarian democracy gets a foot hold and can get over its rocky start, it has the potential to conquer the whole of Erfworld or spawn a series of similar barbarian democracies that do the same thing.

I could easily see Parson becoming a Cincinnatus or Washington. Parson is an excellent general with strong love of his followers and no interest in becoming a tyrant. Plus he was raised in a democracy and likely knows a lot of the basics.

"Lamech" What you described doesn't sound like an anarchy. It sounds like some sort of light-handed, ivory-tower, magocracy (rule by mages). Also my concept of a barbarian democracy would not require the use of Signamancy.

"Krennson" I think you are not using "constitutional monarchy" in correctly. I think what you mean is "federation" or "suzerain". To answer your question, yes, the actual "sides" would consist of only the ruler and newly popped units that have not been released as barbarians yet. These "sides" would be defended by barbarians that had allied with the side. I do conceed that the loss of Chief Warlord bonus is a clear negative. But there is an easy solution to that. In times of emergency, the barbarian democracy has pre-approved General. When that emergency happens, he and a predetermined subset of the democracy rejoin the side and the president (ruler) appoints him Chief Warlord. And remember that the president always being held hostage by an elite group of barbarians, if he tries anything they can threaten his life and demand that those that rejoined the side turn barbarian again. Even a very dutiful Chief Warlord would realize that it was the only way to keep his side alive.

As for issue of voting rights? I don't really know how that would fall out. There are factors even you guys have not thought of. For example many hobgoblins can not talk in Language, and their are likely units of the same boat. How do they vote? Also we are assuming that things like spidews or those wiener-mounts are non-sentient. If I had design the system, then voting rights would be based on age (like >300 turns) with some sort of qualifier. The qualifier would likely be a combination of standardized test & sponsership from an existing voter.

As for the issue of "auto-attack"? You are applying the norms of sided units with barabarian units. While I admit that we have not met a true barbarian yet (Jillian came from a side and technically still had a side the entire time she was a barbarian (Wanda was able to turn to Faq, so sides kind of continue on without capitals) ), the barbarian beasts we have encountered hint that true barabarian units may not have auto-attack feature. The bats and sheep we have witnessed did not attack. The wild dwagon we witnessed was only interested in provisions and did not auto-attack Jillian.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Krennson » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:40 pm

IronBear wrote:"Krennson" I think you are not using "constitutional monarchy" in correctly. I think what you mean is "federation" or "suzerain".



Pretty sure constitutional monarch is the correct term, or an alliance of constitutional monarchies.

Prototype organization would look like this:
Good King Hapsburg, of the Austrian Kingdom, swears a binding oath, as follows:
1. He will abdicate whenever a majority of parliament requests that he do so.
2. He will only appoint chief warlords or Heirs who have sworn the same binding oath.
3. He will not spend money above maintence costs, rations, and a small discretionary budget without approval from parliament.
4. Anytime he creates a new side, using one of his Hapsburg sons or daughters, he will require them to swear the same oath, as applied to their respective kingdoms. They have to obey their own parliaments, not the original Austrian parliament.
5. Parliament is defined as all units with leadership, or their freely appointed representatives in the capital. The King is forbidden from disbanding any member of parliament without it's approval.
6 (optional). Parliament has the right to elect a prime minister, who is the new head of government, and the king, heirs, and chief warlord are required to obey him in most matters.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby victor227 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:59 pm

Charlie's interactions with Parosn are always interesting. He starts in Book 1 trying to butter him up, get him to change sides and all that. Even later on there's still that cordial tone, though after the battle for Gobwin Knob there's a bit more resignation to it, and the two start playing games with one another in a competitive sense rather than outright adversarial (perhaps because Parson blew up all those Archons? Perhaps Charlie actually cares about his units).

The scroll and trap seem to be the turning point. It's interesting that he predicted Parson would go through the Magic Kingdom, and had preparations made in advance, but the real trick is the scroll. It outlines Charlie's thought process. He couldn't convert Parson, so he has to get him out of the game. The interesting bit is that the scroll has two messages. The first, obviously, is that Charlie is giving Parson a way out of the trap, a way out of the game when he's about to lose. The other, is that he's basically telling him how he's a tool of Fate when he tells Parson to run the calculations.

So, either Charlie didn't want to kill him, and gave him that way out. Or he gave him the way out in hopes that by putting him in a desperate situation, Parson himself would subvert Fate by using the scroll of his own free will. In the latter case, it shows he has an acute understanding of Fate, and his fight is with it more than Parson himself. So it's not just about being in a position where the odds are in his favor overwhelmingly, because Fate can change the odds, but beating Fate itself.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby LordAcme » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:34 am

blarg why did it have to be gunz...

Guns seem outre for Erfworld. It's already established that a lot of Archons are shockamancers, for immersion purposes I'd prefer to see bulwarks with shockamancy Archons instead of turrets, and the same practicing their shock-shooting.

I guess it's canon though, since Judy would have known of them, and Charlie spent a lot of time with her / linked with her. Ah well, guess I'll keep reading....
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby No one in particular » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:08 am

Something I just want to throw out for consideration...

Parson does NOT consider Charlie an enemy of Gobwin Knob.
Parson considers Charlie a PERSONAL enemy.

There can be dovetailing there, since Parson is the most useful asset GK has; croaking him would significantly hurt GK.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby wih » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:09 am

I inferred from the comic that Charlie didn't start working with Archons until them came from far away and took him away, far away.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Blank » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:27 am

Bleh, just read the text version, then had to read through around 10 pages to see if this came up (so head is hurting right now), but:

How come no one has thought of how guns can be OP here, in Erfworld?
You don't need to 'engage' to fire a gun, it's kinda like a slingshot/catapult -- you load it up, and fire it. (For bow and arrows, you needa aim and have intent -- guns you can easily misfire and such just by pulling the trigger.) [It's kind of like Parson's question of if he dropped a brick would it croak Stanley.]
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby shamelessmerc » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:40 pm

No one in particular wrote:Something I just want to throw out for consideration...

Parson does NOT consider Charlie an enemy of Gobwin Knob.
Parson considers Charlie a PERSONAL enemy.



Yep, a very interesting question! Parson has been puzzled from the start by the implications of Duty, whether his actions are consciously or unconsciously influenced by system constraints... and he still doesn't know, and neither do we.

CHARLIE *thinks* he knows, or at least knows how a normal unit would behave in this situation. There is also the question to what degree Parson is bound by the agreement he made with Charlie... is there some kind of penalty clause, or is he just *compelled* to obey unless he can find a way to rationalise why he doesn't?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby shamelessmerc » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:55 pm

"Ironbear" I think the central barrier to freedom in Erfworld is not the absence of political philosophy, but an economic system that is predicated on war. There are non-Royal sides after all, but unlike in this world where Autocracy relies on systematic coercion and no more, on Erfworld Warlords give a measurable boost to the troops under their command, they provide efficiency gains to resource production. Unlike in the real world, where these advantages are gained through skill and good management, in Erfworld these are intrinsic to the laws of nature. Any political restructuring Parson might wish to accomplish would have to demonstrate that the gains provided by doing things differently would offset the losses from abandoning "the old ways".
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby ftl » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:09 pm

Blank wrote:Bleh, just read the text version, then had to read through around 10 pages to see if this came up (so head is hurting right now), but:

How come no one has thought of how guns can be OP here, in Erfworld?
You don't need to 'engage' to fire a gun, it's kinda like a slingshot/catapult -- you load it up, and fire it. (For bow and arrows, you needa aim and have intent -- guns you can easily misfire and such just by pulling the trigger.) [It's kind of like Parson's question of if he dropped a brick would it croak Stanley.]


Idunno, I personally don't think that would be the case.

I would expect that mechanics-wise, a gun is a weapon like other weapons. Erfworld has rules for bows and arrows, for cataputs and projectiles. Guns would likely follow similar rules, though probably with better stats. Bullets would still stop at hex boundaries like arrows - what do you mean by "not needing to engage"? Usually all you need to do to engage is be in the same hex as an enemy, and I don't see how guns could get around that any more than existing weaponry.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Tonot » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:30 pm

shamelessmerc wrote:"Ironbear" I think the central barrier to freedom in Erfworld is not the absence of political philosophy, but an economic system that is predicated on war.


Maybe, though I think you can parse that down to the more basic fact that the people don't have freedom as a desire. As beings, the idea of freedom to them by their very being, the way they are built, doesn't mean what it means to us, and isn't one of their basic desires. Freedom as an absolute to them, means something like death, because if they were "free" at the moment, and for all of their recorded history, they were side-less and that meant dead. It isn't just their economic system, but their thoughts, their actual being.
To give them something to replace what they have, you would have to construct that as a philosophy in each and every mind, as a desire, as a way of life that they understood and wanted, or you are not giving them freedom at all, but are merely imposing your (our) preferred way of life on them autocratically, "because we know what is good for all of you". ( Lets just ignore for a moment that he would be imposing it as a dictator, as a King, if he was right to do it objectively, it might well be proper behaviour for a King, after all )

And we don't know what is better for them. Parson, a person who in our democratic "R.L." world, has no life except playing games of escapism and is a very low member of society with no power nor understanding really of "democracy", certainly does not know what might be good for all of Erfworld, HE doesn't even know what is good for himself, as his friend told him in the first or second comic and he admitted. He is, in our democracy, of no account . . . not even capable of keeping himself healthy . . . what part of that grants him the right of setting up an economic and political and philosophical system for an entire world of a myriad of different beings?.

shamelessmerc wrote: There are non-Royal sides after all, but unlike in this world where Autocracy relies on systematic coercion and no more,
Woh woh woh, citation please. ;)
shamelessmerc wrote:on Erfworld Warlords give a measurable boost to the troops under their command, they provide efficiency gains to resource production. Unlike in the real world, where these advantages are gained through skill and good management, in Erfworld these are intrinsic to the laws of nature. Any political restructuring Parson might wish to accomplish would have to demonstrate that the gains provided by doing things differently would offset the losses from abandoning "the old ways".



Yes, exactly, and Parson can't possibly either demonstrate that. He works a menial position at Kinkos, not at a political science think tank, or the IMF or something. I mean, even if he ran his own successful business, how does that qualify him for setting up and entire world ad hoc?. I suggest that even setting up a medium of exchange for Erfworld that worked flawlessly first time every time would be impossible for ANYONE alive on our earth, set down and given the task. Let alone a fantasy board game expert. So since he can't even hope to set up a medium of exchange between Vampires, Goblins and Superfluous Elves and the dozens or more other different kinds of beings, what makes anyone think he can also do all the other parts of making a world for them to live in.

Can't be done. The Magic Spell route needs you to understand what it is you want to have happen, and no one, no one in the world, could possibly hold in their mind the resulting complexity.

The only way to have a world without war, would be the old fashioned way, top down control and make warfare illegal. Or a simple spell one can understand.

"Go you, and make war no more" then let them worry about keeping it alive just as the rest of us do/have, making our own choices and incrementally "perfecting the Union".

And that would be moral, and the alternative of making an entire system and imposing it while not knowing for a second if it would work, any more than Marxists or Laisser-fairists know their systems work when they impose them, is immoral.

tl:dr No possible system that Parson imposes can work, he has not the necessary depth of learning to construct it so it DOES work, ( no single human existing has ever, or does have the depth of learning, OUR Economics and Politics are proof of that, THEY DON'T WORK ) and even trying it WITH a passably workable system, is immoral.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby victor227 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:28 pm

Makes you wonder really, how in a vast world full of diminishing returns, one could be expected to create a 'world without war' that the hippiemancers are looking for. Perhaps it relies in the fundamental alteration of 'Natural Thinkamancy', the binding mindsets that affects every unit there is. The conflict really is just the Great Minds vs Charlie. They consider Parson a tool, an instrument of Fate that will accomplish their goals. We don't really know just how much pull Charlie has over the G-Strings, or the Great Minds for that matter. Could they be hoping that by pitting an unstoppable Fate-driven force against the immovable and Fate-conflicting Charlie, the resulting constant escalation of tricks and gambits and overwhelming destructive and world-breaking power could lead to either side eventually just cutting the threads that bind everything together?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Free Radical » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:36 pm

ftl wrote:Bullets would still stop at hex boundaries like arrows - what do you mean by "not needing to engage"? Usually all you need to do to engage is be in the same hex as an enemy, and I don't see how guns could get around that any more than existing weaponry.

As Artemis mentions, engagement works separately from archery which guns would presumably fall under, so neither gunners nor archers actually need to engage to be able to attack

In addition, Parson's notes indicate that off-turn it's not possible to attack another hex with magic or archery. He'd only need to specify this in his notes about what being off-turn means if it was possible on-turn to attack another hex with magic and archery.

Presumably, there's some kind of distance and/or cover penalties that would make it not useful to attack from another hex in a lot of circumstances if the enemy can locate themselves a long way from the hex boundary or behind trees or other cover, so that it might usually make more sense to spend your limited supply of arrows from within the same hex you're attacking.

If Charlie has some kind of artillery though, those penalties might not apply or be severely reduced. Even guns would probably take a much smaller distance penalty, at the very least. Archons are impressive enough on their own that being able to take a lot of free shots at any hex they want to attack before they even have to decide if they want to enter the hex to attack and allow the enemy a chance to counterattack would be incredibly powerful.
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