Lord Crush - Part 5

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby drachefly » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:36 pm

Could be that findamancy is like an index and lookamancy is like a table of contents.
User avatar
drachefly
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:36 pm

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby GWvsJohn » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:35 pm

drachefly wrote:Could be that findamancy is like an index and lookamancy is like a table of contents.


I always thought of it like this. With Findamancy, you know what you're looking for, but don't know where it is. With Lookamancy, you know where you want to look, but don't know what's there.

I think your index/table of contents analogy fits along those lines.
GWvsJohn
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:52 pm

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:21 pm

I always thought Findamancy would involve pathFinding.
Shai_hulud
Pins Supporter!
Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:57 pm

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby Lamech » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:52 pm

I thought it involved summoning.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby Oberon » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:09 pm

Lamech wrote:Eh, lots of disciplines are "god mode" if they have no limits. Luckamancy makes a single unit arbitrarily difficult to damage, and lets it land an uber-crits (almost) always.
Unless "fate" just doesn't see you hitting that unit today, right?

Lamech wrote:Moneymancy creates infinite shmuckers, and lets you buy infinite units.
Apparently unless you are Don King and almost out of treasury despite having a moneymancer.

I'd go on, but I think the point is made.

Carnymancy is more likely to have a workable god mode because of the impact that "breaking the rules" can have in an environment such as Erfworld where an entire army or even a side can be placed at risk based upon the known rules. This doesn't apply to Parson, he simply finds loopholes such as the dragon's pooping to destroy the atrium roof and then the combination of promoting to heavies and harvesting which allowed his units to cross a zone boundary off-turn. If we assume that carnymancy was involved in the Kingworld (*Ptui!*) link, since Charlie was a part of that link and since we know he is a master class carnymancer (and since the effect is simply way too powerful for a bimancer link), then this is a position supported by canon.

Zer0beron wrote:Every single discipline of magic shown so far has followed the name theme. Rob has not explicitly said it, but it's more obvious than the sun in the sky on a clear day.
You must know that anytime you state something using such absolute terms that you'll be wrong.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby 0beron » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:22 pm

Ohberon wrote:
Zeroberon wrote:Every single discipline of magic shown so far has followed the name theme.
You must know that anytime you state something using such absolute terms that you'll be wrong.
Then please, do, by all means, show me so much as single instance so far in the comic where a spell has achieved something which is not related to some possible interpretation of the discipline's name. Let me phrase that in crystal clear, unequivocal language for you. I'm not talking about a spell for which you could posit an alternate explanation, I'm talking about a spell which had absolutely nothing to do with possible interpretations of the discipline's name. I'll wait, and enjoy the silence.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3191
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:09 am

Oberon wrote:Carnymancy is more likely to have a workable god mode because of the impact that "breaking the rules" can have in an environment such as Erfworld where an entire army or even a side can be placed at risk based upon the known rules.
As far as I can find, Carnymancy breaking the rules is pure fanon. I can't see any way of telling if it's really true or not.

Oberon wrote:If we assume that carnymancy was involved in the Kingworld (*Ptui!*) link, since Charlie was a part of that link and since we know he is a master class carnymancer (and since the effect is simply way too powerful for a bimancer link), then this is a position supported by canon.
Charlie was surely part of the link, but he might have been acting as the Thinkamancer and I would guess that would mean he is was too busy Thinkamancing to contribute much Carnymancy. If Parson is right that Charlie has a Thinkamancer in his pocket, then Charlie could have used that Thinkamancer, or Charlie could have been the Thinkamancer and Jojo could have contributed Carnymancy. There's tons of ways that link could have worked, but in the end all we really know is that Turnamancy and Thinkamancy were involved. Any other disciplines are entirely speculation.

As for the power-level of Kingworld, it does seem pretty powerful because of how it affects entire sides, but that's balanced by long preparation time and high juice cost. I wouldn't be shocked to discover that it could be done with just a bimancer link.

0beron wrote:Then please, do, by all means, show me so much as single instance so far in the comic where a spell has achieved something which is not related to some possible interpretation of the discipline's name.
Book 0, Episode 57: Wanda: "The sense it gave of the prisoner’s body was surely a help to Tina, but my own sense as a Croakamancer is superior to that. I have more finesse, more control."
Wanda is talking about torturing a living person and specifically saying that she is doing it as a Croakamancer. There's no connection to the name of the discipline that I can see. Croakamancy very much deserves its name (though Uncroakamancy might be more precise), but that doesn't mean that everything that it can do has to be connected to croaking.

There are also Hobokens and Powerballs. Trying to limit the disciplines of magic to only those things which are related to their names seems hopeless.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1326
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby 0beron » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:27 am

Wanda's biological senses: Anything Wanda does is tricky because she knows many disciplines, and in this particular instance she's using an item specifically intended to bridge two schools, so we're already on unusual ground. Even so, there are a couple easy ways to address this. 1) understanding of anatomy and the ability to magically sense it is crucial to the process of uncroaking them or 2) a living body isn't the same as a croaked one, so she simply works on it to make it more like a croaked body.

Hoboken is a basic Shockamancy spell.

Powerballs are something we lack detail about, and we've even see them used by non-casters (Lord Crush's story for one, and no doubt other situations). Natural Look, Dirt, Flower, or Shock could all be possible sources. However, nobody in-comic has said what they are either, so it's not a helpful piece of evidence in the debate.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3191
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:12 am

0beron wrote:Wanda's biological senses: Anything Wanda does is tricky because she knows many disciplines, and in this particular instance she's using an item specifically intended to bridge two schools, so we're already on unusual ground.
There's no magic item in Episode 57; that is long after the box was destroyed. Wanda tortures Jillian by touch alone. I wouldn't take that as evidence of what discipline is being used since it's Wanda, except that she specifically says it's Croakamancy. It might only be partially Croakamancy with some other discipline mixed in, but the point is that none of what is happening has anything to do with croaking or uncroaking.

0beron wrote:1) understanding of anatomy and the ability to magically sense it is crucial to the process of uncroaking them
That's true, but that only applies to being able to sense the anatomy of croaked bodies. The fact that Wanda can also sense the anatomy of a living body is already going beyond things that are related to the name of her discipline.

0beron wrote:2) a living body isn't the same as a croaked one, so she simply works on it to make it more like a croaked body.
That doesn't seem to describe what Wanda did to Jillian. For example: "The Croakamancer put her hand on Jillian’s back, and she suddenly found the marble floor to be biting at her with tiny invisible teeth wherever she came in contact with it." Wanda wasn't just giving Jillian pains as if killing pieces of Jillian; it seems more like a sophisticated illusion designed for torture. That bit might have been Foolamancy.

0beron wrote:Hoboken is a basic Shockamancy spell.
I can believe that, but I can't find a citation for it. I thought there might be one in Book 0, Episode 5 which talks briefly about hoboken, but instead it says: "The hoboken is the basic offensive spell known to almost all casters at the time they pop." Where does the idea that hoboken is Shockmancy come from? And how would Wanda know Shockmancy when she's only a few turns old?

0beron wrote:Powerballs are something we lack detail about, and we've even see them used by non-casters (Lord Crush's story for one, and no doubt other situations). Natural Look, Dirt, Flower, or Shock could all be possible sources.
Powerballs aren't natural magic, based on Episode 5: "She cursed herself for having no juice left to conjure even a temporary powerball, as she began to strip off the scout’s gear." Since Wanda would need juice to make a powerball, that makes a powerball a magic item that only a caster can make, and at the time Wanda hadn't had a chance to study any discipline other than Croakamancy. Lord Crush or anyone can surely use a powerball, but I don't remember him ever making one.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1326
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby Oberon » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:27 am

Lilwik wrote:As far as I can find, Carnymancy breaking the rules is pure fanon. I can't see any way of telling if it's really true or not.
Gee, how about taking a dead unit and tying them into fate somehow? With piles of canon exposition about how this situation came about. Is that enough of a canon example for you? Sylvia, in case you miss the reference.

Lilwik wrote:Charlie was surely part of the link, but he might have been acting as the Thinkamancer and I would guess that would mean he is was too busy Thinkamancing to contribute much Carnymancy.
And I'm sure you have some canon examples of how Charlie can be part of a link and yet be somehow unable to both use the 'dish as the thinkamancy portion as well as contribute the carnymancy portion? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Lilwik wrote:There's tons of ways that link could have worked, but in the end all we really know is that Turnamancy and Thinkamancy were involved. Any other disciplines are entirely speculation.
No, that's not all we know. We also know that Charlie is a master class carnymancer, and that he was also involved in the link. Why would anyone involved in a link exclude a strength which has no rational reason to be excluded? There is no rational sense in going down that path.

[REMOVED]

But I thank you for your two examples of how Zer0beron's 'definitions' of caster disciplines fails horribly. You've saved me some work, and I appreciate it. Especially since a second opinion will weigh a bit more heavily with him than any amount of effort I might put into the same eradication of his absolutist (and therefore wrong) statements.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:46 am

I propose that Wanda controls pain because of pain croakers. I expect her to build croak rays too in the future.

Also, not really sure that Carnies are rule breakers, same for Naughtymancers. Our only source on that info seems to be Sizemore, and we just found out he's a rules enforcer. It's a little worrisome that a person who's job is to punish rules breakers told us that some people are popped as criminals who need to be hunted down without trial.
Shai_hulud
Pins Supporter!
Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:57 pm

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:16 am

Oberon wrote:We also know that Charlie is a master class carnymancer, and that he was also involved in the link. Why would anyone involved in a link exclude a strength which has no rational reason to be excluded?
There's at least two possible reasons why he might exclude his Carnymancy from the link. I'm not saying that he actually did it, but if he did, then one or both of these might apply:
  • The demands of being the Thinkamancer in a trimancer link might be too great to allow Charlie to do anything else, and Charlie was unable to hire a Thinkamancer to assist. The Thinkamancers seem to be against Charlie, so it's possible.
  • KingWorld might be a spell that has no use for Carnymancy. In this case we may as well ask why a marine biologist would exclude all his marine biology skill while climbing a mountain.
I won't pretend that I know which disciplines were required to cast KingWorld because I'm pretty sure we don't have enough information to know that. Maybe Charlie contributed Carnymancy and Thinkamancy to the link, but Charlie might also have hired a caster of any discipline to be the third caster in the link, if it even was a trimancer link. To me KingWorld looks like pure Turnamancy, so if it were a trimancer link I'd suspect Turn-Think-Turn, with the second Turnamancer working remotely.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1326
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby GWvsJohn » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:28 am

Oberon wrote:Only idiots such as Zer0beron think that trimancer links work the way he thinks trimancer links work.


I want to bring this post to the attention of the mods. Direct personal attacks and insults have no place here.

This is a heated debate and there's no reason to resort to name calling. If anything it shows how weak your arguments are. I personally happen to think nearly everything Zero has said is accurate and he certainly has more references to back his ideas up than the rest of the theories.
GWvsJohn
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:52 pm

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby 0beron » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:49 am

Lilwik wrote:
0beron wrote:1) understanding of anatomy and the ability to magically sense it is crucial to the process of uncroaking them
That's true, but that only applies to being able to sense the anatomy of croaked bodies. The fact that Wanda can also sense the anatomy of a living body is already going beyond things that are related to the name of her discipline.
I just explained how it is indeed related. When she uncroaks things, she needs to replicate how they function in life. Therefore, the ability to sense anatomy in general is related.
IIRC correctly there is soooomewhere that they say Hoboken is Shockamancy. If not however, then it too becomes irrelevant anyway, because if we're not being told what school, then we can't very well say it's unrelated to the name.
Ohberon wrote:To steal a quote, "it's more obvious than the sun in the sky on a clear day" that [links] don't work the way Zer0beron thinks they work. No matter how much he bitches to the mods about my quoting his exact words, this simply isn't the case. He is quite simply a coward who can't stand to see his own words used against him.
No, what I take issue with is completely lying outright about what I said. Do you honestly think people are that blind? Not even 10 posts prior, I said that quote, and I was talking about discipline names, not links.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3191
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby Lamech » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:13 pm

0beron wrote:Powerballs are something we lack detail about, and we've even see them used by non-casters (Lord Crush's story for one, and no doubt other situations). Natural Look, Dirt, Flower, or Shock could all be possible sources. However, nobody in-comic has said what they are either, so it's not a helpful piece of evidence in the debate.
I thought powerballs were called out as dirtamancy somewhere... Anyway dirtamancy seems all things earth and building related. Sizemore even added wooden beams to his tunnel! Maybe something like "stuff in/on the dirt", but that's seriously stretching it. Turnamancy can be extended to anything that uses turns. Signamancy controls anything with signamancy? So on and so forth.
Oberon wrote:
Lamech wrote:Eh, lots of disciplines are "god mode" if they have no limits. Luckamancy makes a single unit arbitrarily difficult to damage, and lets it land an uber-crits (almost) always.
Unless "fate" just doesn't see you hitting that unit today, right?

Lamech wrote:Moneymancy creates infinite shmuckers, and lets you buy infinite units.
Apparently unless you are Don King and almost out of treasury despite having a moneymancer.

I'd go on, but I think the point is made.

That these disciplines have limits? That's exactly my point. Sizemore can make golems. He can't make infinite golems. Limits. Carnymancy almost certainly has limits too. Jojo couldn't even save a single incapacitated unit without outside help. We have no reason to assume carnymancy is anymore "God mode" than any other caster.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby 0beron » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:14 pm

Lamech wrote:Dirtamancy seems all things earth and building related. Sizemore even added wooden beams to his tunnel! Maybe something like "stuff in/on the dirt", but that's seriously stretching it. Turnamancy can be extended to anything that uses turns. Signamancy controls anything with signamancy? So on and so forth.
With respect to Dirtamancy, it's logic is much like Croakamancy. One meaning of the name is the fodder it draws from. Croakamancy draws on the bodies of the croaked, and Dirtamancy crafts material out of earth or that which is dirty. Sizemore didn't make wood out of nowhere, he transformed earth into wood.

As for your other suggestions, that's trying to carry it to far into the god mode you yourself refute, and are the reverse of my point anyway. I'm looking for past spells that defy any explanation via interpretting the name, not hypothetical OP spells that could fit the name. This later case, which your Turn/Sign examples relate to, are instead proof of your own theory that each school does have some kind of limit that hasn't been explained to us yet.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3191
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:28 pm

0beron wrote:When she uncroaks things, she needs to replicate how they function in life. Therefore, the ability to sense anatomy in general is related.
The fact that knowledge of living anatomy is required for Croakamancy is just a quirk of Erfworld's magic rules, not a real connection between croaking and living anatomy. Surely you're not saying that sensing living anatomy is related to croaking just because Croakamancy happens to need it; in that case anything any discipline does is related to its name just because the discipline does it, including hobokens and powerballs. I thought we were talking about deeper connections than that.

0beron wrote:IIRC correctly there is soooomewhere that they say Hoboken is Shockamancy. If not however, then it too becomes irrelevant anyway, because if we're not being told what school, then we can't very well say it's unrelated to the name.
Surely we know that some hobokens are Croakamancy, since Wanda was able to cast them from her first turn, long before she would have had a chance to learn Shockmancy or any other extra discipline. In Book 0, Episode 56 Wanda explains that attempts to cast spells from other disciplines usually fail unless the caster has studied hard.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1326
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby GWvsJohn » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:30 pm

To me it seems that simple spells like Hoboken and Powerball are easily earned or known by most casters regardless of discipline. I imagine them like cantrips in D&D. Obviously that's not canon, but seems logical.
GWvsJohn
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:52 pm

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:01 pm

0beron wrote:Sizemore didn't make wood out of nowhere, he transformed earth into wood.
Source?

Lilwik wrote:
0beron wrote:IIRC correctly there is soooomewhere that they say Hoboken is Shockamancy. If not however, then it too becomes irrelevant anyway, because if we're not being told what school, then we can't very well say it's unrelated to the name.
Surely we know that some hobokens are Croakamancy, since Wanda was able to cast them from her first turn, long before she would have had a chance to learn Shockmancy or any other extra discipline. In Book 0, Episode 56 Wanda explains that attempts to cast spells from other disciplines usually fail unless the caster has studied hard.
I think Shockamancy is actually being used as a generic term for direct damage as an in universe slang, like telling people to go disband themselves. I doubt there is a special version of the "Hoboken" for every single class that is exactly the same in every way except class. Wanda even says most casters can do it, and that it's "raw" Shockamancy. I think the qualifier "raw" is the key part there.

Also, what do you suppose the odds are that Dirtamancy uses dirty fighting styles? Or can build dirty bombs? Or do the dirty jobs like moving stones?
Shai_hulud
Pins Supporter!
Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:57 pm

Re: Lord Crush - Part 5

Postby 0beron » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:25 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:
0beron wrote:Sizemore didn't make wood out of nowhere, he transformed earth into wood.
Source?
We're talking about the tunnel in Portal Park. Where he took ordinary dirt underground and transformed it into the wood/plaster/powerballs in making a hollow passage.

As for erf-slang, the example of "disband yourself" isn't a good analogy. For one, the intent is still the same, they mean it when they say that. Second, they say that simply to avoid the curse filter. Point being, Erflings don't just randomly say things that are inaccurate. So even with the "raw" qualifier, they're not gonna call ti Shockamancy unless that's what it is. Do you perchance recall where Wanda specifically called Hoboken Shockamancy? I thought she had, but since she's basically in the whole comic it's hard to remember where and track it down.

Lilwik wrote:Surely we know that some hobokens are Croakamancy, since Wanda was able to cast them from her first turn, long before she would have had a chance to learn Shockmancy or any other extra discipline.
As Shai pointed out, it's stated that Hoboken is a general offensive spell many casters pop knowing. That doesn't automatically make it Croakamancy, that makes a spell that is already known, so it could still just as easily be another discipline from the caster's native type.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3191
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Denizen and 7 guests