Digdoug - Episode 3

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:06 pm

To be fair, how many of those Rulers think Thinkamancers are better because they suggested that's the way it should be?

Heh heh heh. Electric wiring plus explosives? Yes please.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Omnimancer » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:39 pm

Lipkin wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:If giant electric cannons aren't Shockamancy, I can honestly say I have no idea what Shockamancy might even do anymore. Still cool as hell though. Do you suppose there are Battery-Acid Rock Golems? Or maybe Shock Rock Golems?


I think the lightning itself is probably natural shockmancy. The lightning rod, being metal, is dirtamancy. A dirtamancer is able to redirect or convert the natural shockmancy, but not create the lightning itself.

I think we've seen that towers in general can convert juice into raw, stored shockmancy. So the lightning rod is modifying the tower so that it can also store the lightning. Making the lightning rod differentiate between friend and foe seems less difficult than making a golem. It's the difference between an auto-firing system and a full on robot.


Exactly. A dirtamancer can harness the terrain's natural shockamancy, while an actual shockamancer could just blast lightning out of their fingertips. They're both pretty powerful in their own way. A dirtmancer can seriously buff up your cities, but I suspect a shockmancer is probably more handy when you're out in the field or on the offensive.

Although I imagine a shockamancer is pretty handy defensively if they're the one firing your tower's spells. A dirtamancy enhanced tower operated by a shockamancer might be an amazing combo.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Lipkin » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:52 pm

Since juice stored in a tower becomes raw shockmancy, perhaps a Shockmancer could refine that into a more powerful form. Which would mean he would simultaneously be pooling the juice from the other casters, while also making it more powerful.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Omnimancer » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:14 pm

Lipkin wrote:Since juice stored in a tower becomes raw shockmancy, perhaps a Shockmancer could refine that into a more powerful form. Which would mean he would simultaneously be pooling the juice from the other casters, while also making it more powerful.


A shockamancer might be able to deal additional damage or have better aim than the tower's auto-targeting, or maybe combine their juice with the tower's to cast better spells. Think of how much damage Wanda was able to do with Gobwin Knob's air defense spells, and she's not even a shockamancer. Of course it's safe to assume that Gobwin Knob's old tower had all the enhancements Sizemore could reasonably provide, which may have given Wanda an advantage.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:45 am

Found an example of what kind of music Shock Rock golems would fight to. :D

Also, Ace said Dollamancy was fabrication with a Motion element. I always wondered if there was fabrication with a Matter or Life element, and what the difference from Dollamancy is. Interesting that it was brought up eventually. Reminds me of the comments about the forum Dirt vs Sign issue on the Facebook page.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby raphfrk » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:35 am

That is a fair amount of info in the "direct order". At what point is a thinkamancer required.

I guess a King can give units a destination and method of travel.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby BakaGrappler » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:19 am

raphfrk wrote:That is a fair amount of info in the "direct order". At what point is a thinkamancer required.

I guess a King can give units a destination and method of travel.


I like to think of it as if it were orders given by the Giant Disembodied Hand. Unit highlighted. Go here. Via these means. With this combat stance.

Anything more specific, and you need communication lines, either through a Thinkamancer, or through a series of Magic Hats.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Prodigial_Knight » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:50 am

raphfrk wrote:That is a fair amount of info in the "direct order". At what point is a thinkamancer required.

I guess a King can give units a destination and method of travel.


Apparently the most common M.O for sides is that the Chief Warlord handles most of the tactical and strategic decision with the ruler setting the grand strategy, the allocation of special resources (casters) and diplomacy.

Which would mean that if you don't have a thinkamancer/hat system/etc the ruler would have to wait around for the CW to decide the strategy then relay it to every unit, I think most rulers would see that as beneath them.

Or if they're more active like Stanley just cut out the CW and give the orders themselves (and keep the CW for the bonus).

Interesting that apparently stopping/slowing down time or the perception of time is natural turnamancy.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Free Radical » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:13 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Also, Ace said Dollamancy was fabrication with a Motion element. I always wondered if there was fabrication with a Matter or Life element, and what the difference from Dollamancy is. Interesting that it was brought up eventually. Reminds me of the comments about the forum Dirt vs Sign issue on the Facebook page.

Haffaton's Thinkamancer, Maxwell, managed to create the scarecrow, the tin golem and the lion in a way that appears to have added a life element to the fabrication process, which Olive insisted should have been impossible.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Lilwik » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:02 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Also, Ace said Dollamancy was fabrication with a Motion element. I always wondered if there was fabrication with a Matter or Life element, and what the difference from Dollamancy is.
That's a clever observation! To spell it out, this nicely explains why Digdoug calls himself a fabricator; Stuffamancy is fabrication with the Matter element. That's different from ordinary fabrication (which isn't magical, though it is technically Natural Dollamancy) in that Stuffamancy can just make stuff appear instead of having to build it. I expect that Dollamancy also suffers from the limitation of having to actually build the things that it creates, considering how Cubbins was helping Ace. So Dollamancy builds things that can move, Stuffamancy just makes things appear, and ordinary fabrication just builds things.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Aquillion » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:10 pm

Prodigial_Knight wrote:To be frank rulers seem to be really picky about their casters "oh croakamancy is teh evil"/"oh dirtamancers roll around in mud like pigs"/"carnies will swindle you" instead of you know being grateful their side has access to a whole new strategic playing field with any new discipline, I'll bet the most popular discipline (among rulers) is dollamancy for their ability to create clothes.
To be totally fair, all the evidence so far is that they're right about carnies.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Kaed » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:04 am

In light of the new news post, and looking back to find I missed what seems to be the only reference to changemancy powers ever made... I'm trying to figure out what exactly differentiates changemancers from dollamancers. o.o
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Lilwik » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:57 am

Kaed wrote:In light of the new news post, and looking back to find I missed what seems to be the only reference to changemancy powers ever made... I'm trying to figure out what exactly differentiates changemancers from dollamancers. o.o
That change in Summer Update 28 is really great and pretty huge. It means that one more discipline defects from the group of disciplines that we know very little about, leaving only Weirdomancy and Carnymancy firmly in that group. Now it seems that we know that Dirtamancy and Changemancy are pretty much the same thing, but at different scales, with Dirtamancy making buildings and units, while Changemancy makes items.

This suggests two differences between Dollamancy and Changemancy to me. Changemancers conjure items and Dollamancers might not be able to do that. Cubbins helped Ace by conjuring small objects, which suggests that Ace couldn't do that himself. The other difference is that Dollamancers can create things with Motion, all the way up to up to units, and Changemancers might not be able to do that. A Dollamancer can create a gun, but a Changemancer might not be able to do that because a gun is an item of Motion. This depends on what exactly is meant by enchanting an item when a Changemancer does it.

I also wonder if Dollamancers can create magic items. We now know that Changemancers can create magic items, so if Dollamancers can't create magic items then that would be another difference. On the other hand, Dollamancy is unlikely to be one of the few disciplines that is incapable of creating magic items if most other disciplines can do it, since making stuff is a huge part of Dollamancy and some of the things Dollamancy has been seen to make seem pretty magical. We also know that a linked Lookamancer/Thinkamancer/Foolamancer can create eyebooks which are magic items, so I'm going to guess that all disciplines can create magic items. In the area of magic items, the difference between disciplines is probably more about what kind of item each discipline can make. Eyebooks have abilities that we know Thinkamancers, Lookamancers, and Foolamancers have, so we can guess that those disciplines can create items that share the powers of the discipline that made the item. Unfortunately I doubt that applies to the magic items created by a Changemancer.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Jatopian » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:11 am

Rob Balder wrote:I had a self-debate for months about one of the Summer Updates, and decided (with the help of the #Erfworld IRC channel folks) to clarify an Erfworld rule, and keep that update (I will not say which one) as written.
Anyone know what he's talking about here?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Lipkin » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:24 am

I'm still confused, because Ace and Cubbins both reworked existing items and made them magical.

But I suspect we'll find that Changemancers can make guns. Because along with Jefftichew and Vanna, Unaroyal had Bowie the Changemancer. And so far it seems like all former Unaroyal casters are in league with Charlie.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby (name here) » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:47 am

Prodigial_Knight wrote:
Lipkin wrote:I think the most popular discipline is probably Thinkomancy. Dollamancy has got to be up there though.


So the human equivalent of a cell phone :P kind of makes the same point I was trying to make about the perspective of rulers.


Don't be too hard on Thinkamancers. They're easy for us to take for granted because GK has always had one even as the other casters intermittently got crippled. They provide command and control for the entire side. Although we've just learned that Rulers can use Natural Thinkamancy to send highly detailed orders, that's a one-way thing. The only feedback they can get like that is casualties, which usually start happening after the best time to make decisions. Even solo, Maggie can essentially provide constant radio contact with every major engagement. And then there's linking; get a Thinkamancer and any two other casters and you can get something awesome. Uncroaking the volcano, interrupting the enemy turn, or turning off fog of war are all incredible game-changers.

As for Changeamancy vs. Dollamancy, Changeamancy seems to mostly tamper with stats. They do seem to have overlap with item creation, though.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Omnimancer » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:55 pm

Kaed wrote:In light of the new news post, and looking back to find I missed what seems to be the only reference to changemancy powers ever made... I'm trying to figure out what exactly differentiates changemancers from dollamancers. o.o


Dollamancers can create units and accessories for units. Changemancers can create pretty much any object, but not units. The changeamancer probably can create a wider range of magical items, and maybe even ones that don't require a unit to function. For example if you wanted a magic boat or a magic throne you might turn to them. Changeamancers also don't need materials, since they can summon matter from thin air, while a Dollamancer probably requires something to animate or enhance. This probably also means Changemancers can use rarer or higher quality materials that are hard to obtain otherwise.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby 0beron » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:17 pm

I think the important distinction made is the Motion or lack therof. Everything Ace has made involved creating/stopping Motion, and Raiment.
  • Blaster: creates a projectile
  • Jetpack: Gives airborn movement
  • Ballista-Net: Projectile weapon, and halts the movement of the target
  • Cape: Raiment, and also blocks another Motion-based discipline, Shockamancy
  • War Paint: Raiment (and what is make-up after all, if not getting "dolled-up"? *two drums and a cymbal fall of a cliff*)
From these examples plus the new info, I suspect that Dollamancy can manufacture "active" items (but needs Material to work from) whereas Changeamancy may make more "passive" items. So while a Blaster is Dollamancy, a Magic Sword +1 would be Changeamancy.

And on a semi-related note, I'm glad this clarification retcon was made since as I said before it was the outlier. We now have no reason to believe Dirtamancy can function without having "earth" to work with in the first place.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby Lilwik » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:12 pm

0beron wrote:From these examples plus the new info, I suspect that Dollamancy can manufacture "active" items (but needs Material to work from) whereas Changeamancy may make more "passive" items. So while a Blaster is Dollamancy, a Magic Sword +1 would be Changeamancy.
I agree. I think that Changemancers and Stuffamancers in general are probably excellent at understanding structural properties like strength, balance, and durability. Dirtamancers use it to make buildings that don't collapse, and Changemancers use it to make high-quality swords and shields that protect people well, but understanding how moving parts fit together and interact to create a desired effect is an entirely different skill. So I would speculate that a Changemancer could make an excellent bow for an archer, but would find constructing a crossbow to be a baffling project. Going the other way, Ace could obviously make a crossbow with no problems, but if Ace tried to make a sword he might have issues because he would have to forge the sword himself from raw materials. He'd surely end up with something in the shape of a sword (precision in shapes is critical to making moving parts work together) but I'd guess it wouldn't be as strong or as well balanced as a Changemancy sword.

0beron wrote:We now have no reason to believe Dirtamancy can function without having "earth" to work with in the first place.
Actually in Digdoug 2 near the beginning he reveals that he has a patching spell that might have fixed a leak in a roof if he'd had juice. Surely there is no dirt on the roof to make the patch from. He must be either making the patch from the roofing material itself, or else conjuring it out of nothing. Fixing leaking roofs fits perfectly with Dirtamancy's architectural theme, but has no real connection to dirt. Now we also have Changemancy which clearly sometimes does things that have no connection to changes.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 3

Postby 0beron » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:22 pm

Lilwik wrote:[Digdoug] reveals that he has a patching spell that might have fixed a leak in a roof if he'd had juice.
Buildings are made from earthy materials. Metal, stone, mud, etc. In fact I believe Weatherbug is said to have tile roofs, which means they're made of clay.
Lilwik wrote:Now we also have Changemancy which clearly sometimes does things that have no connection to changes.
So....you would say "rework[ing] and enchant[ing] or conjure[ing]" don't constitute changes...? You're changing the properties of something, or changing nothing into something.
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