Digdoug - Episode 6

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby MonteCristo » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:54 am

Zippy the Squirrel wrote:King Posbrake and Prince Creen are brothers, right?

I think Charlescomm might make an appearance in this short. Posbrake's concealed expenses are him paying for a contract with Charlie to provide mercenaries with which to surprise his father's army when Homekey rebels.

Oooh, or, Posbrake is lying about casualties sustained during the fighting, making it seem as those his numbers are fewer than they actually are to surprise Delkey when he declares independence. That could include Lady Chains, how romantic! Maybe. I don't do romance.

Or he's been cooking the books and saving up money to give DigDoug the means to improve the capital defenses for when Homekey... well, whatever it is, I definitely think there's gonna be an alliance dissolution.


I don't know, Posbrake seems too smart of a ruler to cause any trouble. He should know that his side is small and as such can not risk a fight with Delkey, so he's not gonna be rebelling anytime soon. As digdoug pointed out, a fight with the parent side would be disastrous. Smarter that he keep the alliance going as long as possible... Homekey doesn't have much to gain from breaking alliance first.

However, Posbrake could be seeing the writing on the wall. He can tell that Delkey will not just let him be. His old man is a paranoid old fool and as such Posbrake knows there is indeed a chance that Delkey will betray him and attack. As such he is preparing for that day... he's keeping his expenditures a secret so that delkey will not have an accurate estimate of his forces and building up his defense to prepare for Delkey's betrayal.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby Lilwik » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:00 am

ftl wrote:This seems to show that a restrictive contract seems like the wrong way to split off a side.
Without a restrictive contract eventually the side you split off will turn against you. It may take thousands of turns, but it's bound to happen given enough time. When you split off a side you are giving up cities and units, so you need to get something in return and a restrictive contract sounds like a reasonable repayment for allowing the split.

Remember that Delkey was never trying to split off a side. They were trying to give Posbrake a chance to prove that his foolish ideas wouldn't work. Homekey's success and growth have come as a total surprise to Delkey, so we shouldn't be surprised that Delkey isn't handling it well.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby ftl » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:37 am

Lilwik wrote:Without a restrictive contract eventually the side you split off will turn against you. It may take thousands of turns, but it's bound to happen given enough time. When you split off a side you are giving up cities and units, so you need to get something in return and a restrictive contract sounds like a reasonable repayment for allowing the split.


Well, with a restrictive contract a side will eventually split against you as well, I would guess.

It probably comes down to personalities. If your split-off side is fundamentally friendly to you, you want to keep them that way, and if they're hostile, then you want to tie them up with contracts. The most important thing is probably knowing the personality of the person you're putting in charge of a side right next to you, and tailoring accordingly.

Remember that Delkey was never trying to split off a side. They were trying to give Posbrake a chance to prove that his foolish ideas wouldn't work. Homekey's success and growth have come as a total surprise to Delkey, so we shouldn't be surprised that Delkey isn't handling it well.


Good point. I forgot about that.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby cheeseaholic » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:44 am

What would King Minus do if they found out that they were cooking the books anyway, attack then? Destroy the side and the enemy will flood through. Posbrake doesn't need Minus, but Minus needs Posbrake.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby Sixty » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:55 am

Interesting to see some of the Kickstarter stories are longer than expected! Very welcome.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby Lipkin » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:35 am

Knott wrote:@Free Radical:
Its a good theory, but I would expect that popping courtiers is vastly cheaper than popping warlords (and probably cheaper than single unit combat units) to the point that getting a caster is not possible or so incredibly rare its not a valid caster-popping strategy.

Secret casters is an interesting concept. A problem though is that warlords (and casters?) can see unit stats. But then again, I would expect that changing the appearance of this report, relabeling the sign if you will, is something a Signamancer could do. The three eyemancer classes would also be a good guess on who could make fake IDs.

_
Also in erf's magic system I beleive that not everything needs to be exclusive to one particular discipline, overlapping and different approaches to the same results should exist.

Take this episode f.ex. Digdoug is able to detect metal quantity at just a glance and also identify jewlery gems for what they are with his Dirtamancy arcane sight. I would expect that a moneymancer's arcane sight could also identify this at just a glance. It would be very different perspectives, but same result.

As such, Digdoug's statement that cleansing to start-of-turn condition is Dirtamancy is probably an uninformed and/or biased observation rather than a hard fact. I would expect that f.ex. a Healomancer could produce the same result with a slightly different approach.

OOH! What if a Signamancer could alter the appearance of stats? Cast on a unit, and make them appear stronger or weaker than they are, or hide specials. The Signamancer could even disguise the fact that they were a caster.

I'm not sure I buy that the side has a Signamancer, Findamancer, and Predictamancer hidden away, but if Bucky Bits were secretly a Signamancer, cooking the books for her side, reading the Signamancy of units to find the correct ones to promote, and manipulating the treaty to the side's advantage, that would be pretty dang cool. And she's called Chief because she's actually Chief caster.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby drachefly » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:17 am

Or a weirdomancer to temporarily change the unit type from caster to courtier?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby blackfyre » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:39 pm

Knott wrote:When it comes to erf animals and the occational non-erfisized animal like Jillian's Fish and Lord Crush's Rat, I would point out that when animals with erf pun/memetic nomenclature are mentioned they are units with combat stats. When animals without a special erf-name appears it is usually in the context of being foragable rations or "features" of the terrain.
Although we have yet to see a detailed canon explaination of the phenomenon, my guess would be that these creatures are best described as feral units with something like a "critter" subtype. In terms of combat, they are utterly neglible; their only defense is the attacker's miss-chance. A "critter swarm" could be a thing though, but we've yet to see any.

I imagine the feral critter units like the snookiemonster are like bears lions wolves and panthers in civ, well, probably beefed up a bit since one may have killed a chief warlord who was out walking alone and they seem to pop right up near cities(lower rate?) instead of only outside cultural borders
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby SNfinity » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:21 pm

blackfyre wrote:
Knott wrote:When it comes to erf animals and the occational non-erfisized animal like Jillian's Fish and Lord Crush's Rat, I would point out that when animals with erf pun/memetic nomenclature are mentioned they are units with combat stats. When animals without a special erf-name appears it is usually in the context of being foragable rations or "features" of the terrain.
Although we have yet to see a detailed canon explaination of the phenomenon, my guess would be that these creatures are best described as feral units with something like a "critter" subtype. In terms of combat, they are utterly neglible; their only defense is the attacker's miss-chance. A "critter swarm" could be a thing though, but we've yet to see any.

I imagine the feral critter units like the snookiemonster are like bears lions wolves and panthers in civ, well, probably beefed up a bit since one may have killed a chief warlord who was out walking alone and they seem to pop right up near cities(lower rate?) instead of only outside cultural borders


I think Knott meant that the "normal" animals like fish are just scenery have no stats, while the "erf" animals like dwagons and snookiemonsters are unit types and therefore do have stats.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby Omnimancer » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:23 pm

Deezee wrote:I feel like the vast majority of thinking units we've seen so far are competent at their jobs, at least, although many of them seem to be unable to understand the other roles in a side. It does seem like Homekey has smaller number of incompetent units though, which I'm tempted to argue is because his warlords are all promoted from infantry units, and presumably exceptional ones. Stanley puts this into doubt though; while he's quite a force on the battlefield, he seems to have a much weaker grasp of strategy than say, Hunt or Lady Chains. Most likely it's because the King himself is quite crafty, and the side has been at war for its whole existence. As a result, Posbrake probably only keeps capable units around, while the incompetent ones (and many competent ones as well) are sent off to die in the field.


I think Erfworld residents are usually specialists, and fairly ignorant outside their field. That's because of the lack of education. On Earth people spend years as children, go to high school and college, and assemble a huge amount of random information and skills beyond just their profession. On Erfworld people just pop with what they need to know. So it makes sense that so many units know so little about their own sides.

That's also why Parsonis such a game changer. Learning and out of the box creativity is not normal in Erfworld. And only a few rare individuals like Sizemore seem to enjoy learning for fun.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby Lamech » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:35 pm

Right, Parson has learned how to learn.
Jacinth and Rubies wrote:King Minus really wants to keep his son on a short leash, doesn't he? Forced his son to sign a contract, requires him to pop an heir if his existing one croaks, demands daily expense reports (!); likely the reason for Delkey troops in Weatherbug is due to a clause where Delkey has troops stationed in every city (wonder what else is in that Contract...). Seems like he's a leeeeettle bit of a control freak. I can see why King Posbrake thinks the latrines in his outmost city are more important than Delkey business; his dad has tried to muzzle him, and he's been chafed raw with the demands (and there's probably nothing short of blind compliance that would satisfy his father anyway). Minus is going to wind up badgering his son into attacking him by refusing to lighten up on his demands. A pity, really - his son seems to be a very intelligent and capable Ruler in his own right, and were Minus not so rigid, they might have enjoyed a long alliance.

Hmmm, I wonder where Posbrake has been spending his extra schmuckers...

Creen says
“He wishes to know what expenses you’re concealing.”

So he's not questioning income, or arguing that expenses are being overstated. Hiding income as it were. He thinks the King is spending on something he hasn't been talking about. I also note income is almost certainly restricted to shmuckers. Which means things like forage or mines or farm is NOT included. That could lower expenses and in turn give him more to hide. And I bet those income sources are better than expected too.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby SNfinity » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:20 am

Lamech wrote:Right, Parson has learned how to learn.
Jacinth and Rubies wrote:King Minus really wants to keep his son on a short leash, doesn't he? Forced his son to sign a contract, requires him to pop an heir if his existing one croaks, demands daily expense reports (!); likely the reason for Delkey troops in Weatherbug is due to a clause where Delkey has troops stationed in every city (wonder what else is in that Contract...). Seems like he's a leeeeettle bit of a control freak. I can see why King Posbrake thinks the latrines in his outmost city are more important than Delkey business; his dad has tried to muzzle him, and he's been chafed raw with the demands (and there's probably nothing short of blind compliance that would satisfy his father anyway). Minus is going to wind up badgering his son into attacking him by refusing to lighten up on his demands. A pity, really - his son seems to be a very intelligent and capable Ruler in his own right, and were Minus not so rigid, they might have enjoyed a long alliance.

Hmmm, I wonder where Posbrake has been spending his extra schmuckers...

Creen says
“He wishes to know what expenses you’re concealing.”

So he's not questioning income, or arguing that expenses are being overstated. Hiding income as it were. He thinks the King is spending on something he hasn't been talking about. I also note income is almost certainly restricted to shmuckers. Which means things like forage or mines or farm is NOT included. That could lower expenses and in turn give him more to hide. And I bet those income sources are better than expected too.


Since Posbrake is so keen on following the letter of the contract, maybe he's just refusing to disclose what his expenses are. I gained ten thousand shmuckers, then spent nine thousand on upkeep and one thousand on something else this turn is pretty darn uninformative.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby HBar » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:31 am

Maybe Allison and the rest of the forces at Weatherbug weren't killed, they were captured. As per secret agreement with Numloch. A hidden army could be massing in their dungeons, completely off the books. Digdug was just there to create an excuse for why Weatherbug didn't fall completely.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby TurtlesAWD » Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:50 am

I don't know if the likelihood of it has been discussed in other reaction threads since I don't follow them very frequently, but the chance that Allison (or at least some units at Weatherbug) survived does seem to be somewhat likely after the most recent update. Could be what Posbrake looked like he wanted to say, but couldn't. Could also be why looked slightly guilty/sympathetic... lying to his caster, and keeping him out of the loop despite the fact that Digdoug seems to do his job pretty admirably.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby Lilwik » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:32 am

HBar wrote:Maybe Allison and the rest of the forces at Weatherbug weren't killed, they were captured. As per secret agreement with Numloch.
That's a delightful idea. That would explain how Posbrake knew the attack on Weatherbug was coming before it came, though of course there are other options, such as hiring a Lookamancer from the Magic Kingdom, or a message from Lady Chains. It explains Posbrake's mysterious attitude in this update, the secrets being kept from Delkey, the tower boosting on the capital, the fact that Hunt and Peck are being kept in the dark. If Homekey is planning on betraying Delkey and allying with Numloch, then it all makes sense, and at the moment I have no alternate explanations for most of those things.

Why would Posbrake give the defenders of Weatherbug to Numloch? It seems strange that he would do it merely to keep a few units off the books. If Numloch and Homekey are in a secret unofficial alliance then it is strange that Numloch would tolerate fighting a battle against Homekey's soldiers, and there's no doubt that the battle really happened since there were Delkey soldiers in Weatherbug who couldn't have been in on the joke. The Homekey soldiers couldn't have been ordered to turn on the Delkey soldiers because that would break the alliance, so then it was a real battle between Homekey and Numloch, probably with serious losses on both sides, hardly a good start to the new alliance. If the theory is true, then the real purpose of the battle of Weatherbug must have been to kill all of the Delkey soldiers there and replace them with a pure Homekey force that could be ordered to ignore a column of Numloch soldiers marching through the pass. That means that Numloch probably withdrew even after they won because it was a requirement of the agreement between Homekey and Numlock, a gesture of trust.

Why was Digdoug sent out to improve the defenses of Weatherbug? Doing that would be completely backward if the plan was actually to have Numloch win the battle. It took Digdoug nine turns to get to Weatherbug, so perhaps the entire relationship between Numloch and Weatherbug is so new that no one even considered the possibility when Digdoug was ordered to go to Weatherbug. Posbrake wouldn't have been able to order Digdoug back early because that would raise even more questions.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby TurtlesAWD » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:47 am

An alliance with numloch seems unlikely to me if one of the focuses on this story is supposed to be on the differences between fighting horizontally or vertically (rather than a focus on Side alliances and politics and treaties, like the previous one). Secret alliances sort of undermine the sense of victory from the successful defense of weatherbug, which is supposed to be one of the most hotly contested cities in the area. It's feasible that numloch could be coerced into an alliance I guess, given that Homekey is doing well against them and could negotiate from a position of power, but because they're doing well, and because they can easily predict that Numloch would want to attack weatherbug, an alliance doesn't seem necessary. It's also more dramatic for Weatherbug to have been won by virtue of grit, sweat, and well-placed dirtamancy traps (and golems) by such a margin that they did have surviving soldiers, in my opinion, than through a secret alliance with a more sinister force than Posbrake's own family.

My opinion on whether or not Numloch and Homekey have any kind of alliance is maybe based on projections, assumptions, and half-remembered snippets of information that we have about Numloch so far so I could be wrong. But I do think that tactically speaking, Numloch would not stand to benefit from an alliance that requires them to lose a lot of soldiers in a battle for a city they don't get to keep only to help Posbrake fight against his own family who he probably doesn't quite yet want to murder.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby mortissimus » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:12 pm

HBar wrote:Maybe Allison and the rest of the forces at Weatherbug weren't killed, they were captured. As per secret agreement with Numloch. A hidden army could be massing in their dungeons, completely off the books. Digdug was just there to create an excuse for why Weatherbug didn't fall completely.


You mean a large Number of troops has been Locked up?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby auraseer » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:19 pm

Lipkin wrote:In the second paragraph, the Prince is described as wearing an ermine-line jacket. Does this mean that ermine exist as a creature on Erf?

Can't be. If it were a creature, the name would be "ewmine."
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby Lipkin » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:29 pm

auraseer wrote:
Lipkin wrote:In the second paragraph, the Prince is described as wearing an ermine-line jacket. Does this mean that ermine exist as a creature on Erf?

Can't be. If it were a creature, the name would be "ewmine."

That's some faulty logic.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 6

Postby Lilwik » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:02 pm

TurtlesAWD wrote:But I do think that tactically speaking, Numloch would not stand to benefit from an alliance that requires them to lose a lot of soldiers in a battle for a city they don't get to keep only to help Posbrake fight against his own family who he probably doesn't quite yet want to murder.
It's impossible to guess what Numloch's motivations might be without knowing anything about Numloch, but I guess they didn't expect to take heavy losses in a battle they arrived at with overwhelming force. It does seem strange that Posbrake would plot to attack his family, but in Episode 4 is was made clear that the only possible reason for upgrading the the capital's tower was to defend against Delkey. There's only one enemy that Posbrake would plan to defend against and keep that plan a closely guarded secret. The relationship between Delkey and Homekey is clearly troubled, and I guess it has been troubled since before Homekey was formed. It seems odd that they would go so far as to start killing each other, but I can't see any other explanation. Perhaps Delkey is starting to feel so threatened by Homekey's success that Delkey has made plans to re-absorb Homekey by force.

Perhaps the alliance with Numloch is a wild theory too far. Perhaps Posbrake knew about the attack on Weatherbug in totally innocent ways, such as Lady Chains making a report. Lady Chains' attitude in Episode 3 suggests that maybe she knew that a big battle was coming. If the defeat at Weatherbug was planned, then Posbrake would have no reason to warn her, so let's suppose that the battle wasn't planned and Lady Chains was the one who warned Posbrake. Maybe the reason that Posbrake seems guilty is the fact that he agrees with Digdoug about how Digdoug could have helped in Weatherbug, or at least Posbrake wishes he could tell Digdoug why upgrading the capital's tower is so important. That's not nearly as good a reason for guilt, but it is simpler.
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