Digdoug - Episode 8

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby Mathamancer » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:23 pm

What we know of the prediction:
The Predictamancer also said we would face a major attack on the City of Homekey, and that it would come by air. This information is especially included in your secrecy order.


1) The City of Homekey will:
a) Face a major attack [...major attack on the City of Homekey...] AND
b) Be under Homekey's control when the attack comes [...we would face...] AND
c) The attack will come by air

2) What is not explicitly stated in the prediction is:
a) The name of the attacking side
b) Whether the attacker or defender wins
c) Whether the attack is by combat (perhaps a political attack via skywriting, for example? Or maybe the Prince of Delkey will shout insulting things at King Posbrake from a flying mount?)
d) Whether it is THIS city of Homekey (could a Carneymancer rig the game by swapping city names, say so that Weatherbug becomes Homekey and vice versa?)
e) Whether Homekey is the capital at the time (If Homekey can secure another Capital site, they can ensure survival by moving the capital)
f) When the attack will take place (the predicition could potentially be deferred indefinitely if the capital were moved, the city razed, and no significant force belonging to Homekey ever gathered there again)
g) Whether Homekey is the side that we care about when it comes true (perhaps they could spin off a new side, move all of their resources and their king to it, and leave the heir they promised to pop with the one city right before the attack in a tragic sacrifice play)
h) Whether Homekey will be defending or attacking when it goes down (Homekey loses city to Side A, units go Barbarian and move in to take it back, find that Side B is fighting both them and Side A in a major attack)

I'm sure there are many ways to rig the game so that the prediction either:
a) Comes true, but in a relatively harmless way (the attack, though major, is not devastating)
b) Comes true, but someone other than Homekey suffers for it (hurting the attacker more than Homekey, true to Homekey's asymmetric warfare strategy)
c) Is put on a very long-term hold (but comes back when a vengeance when the hold is up)
Mathamancer
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:08 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby joosy » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:35 pm

Zeku wrote:This means that all of Jillian's torture in the Wandabox didn't actual damage or traumatize her.

or that she was healed via Betsy and the Carnymancy deal with Charlie that Jillian bargained for.
joosy
 
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 6:30 am

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby asparagus » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:32 pm

Mathamancer wrote:I'm sure there are many ways to rig the game so that the prediction either:
a) Comes true, but in a relatively harmless way (the attack, though major, is not devastating)
b) Comes true, but someone other than Homekey suffers for it (hurting the attacker more than Homekey, true to Homekey's asymmetric warfare strategy)
c) Is put on a very long-term hold (but comes back when a vengeance when the hold is up)


Would it be too much of a cliche if what plays out is based upon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-card_Monte? This has been foreshadowed in the three cards in the Carneymancer's hat.
asparagus
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:27 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby Lilwik » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:39 pm

Mathamancer wrote:What is not explicitly stated in the prediction is:
We don't actually know the full content of the Prediction. All we know is what Posbrake chose to share with Digdoug, which might be everything, or it might only be a rough indication of what the Predictamancer said. It could even be that Posbrake deliberately left out some very important details, since there's no reason why Digdoug should need to know them.

I'm pretty sure that the Predictamancer did say something more than we know, because otherwise Posbrake's response seems strange. If it were just a major attack, then Posbrake ought to just prepare to defend his city like any normal warlord would. This sort of response seems more in line with Posbrake hearing that the city will be taken, or some other bad outcome to the battle such as Posbrake croaking. But whatever it is, it's not as specific as that because Posbrake feels he has reason to look for a loophole. I hope we'll get to hear the situation explained to the Carnymancer in detail.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1324
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby 0beron » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:57 pm

joosy wrote:
Zeku wrote:This means that all of Jillian's torture in the Wandabox didn't actually damage or traumatize her.

or that she was healed via Betsy and the Carnymancy deal with Charlie that Jillian bargained for.
Or to be more precise, you don't remain ashen if you forget everything that traumatized you in the first place.
On a semi-related note, as we can see especially from Maggie's Signamancy changes, the paleness fades over time if your mood/life improves, or if you come to view your past trauma in a more favorable light (Parson basically said he forgave Maggie for what she did to Misty, which would help diminish her guilt) so this explains why Wanda no longer looks ashen either.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3159
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby No one in particular » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:37 pm

It can't just be personal views on the trauma, though... consider Jack. He seemed to be having a pretty good time of it immediately following the break, and never seemed to be horribly upset about thinking back to the Link... he was still ashy, though.

As for Jillian, Digdoug DID say that the paleness only happens sometimes and usually to casters.

If we want to get crazy with this though, what does it mean for Transylvito? EVERYONE is ashy there! Are they all traumatized immediately after popping? :D
"Are you always so pessimistic?"
"Not at all. I saved it for my last battle."
---
Got questions? Ask Count Downer!
User avatar
No one in particular
 
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:48 pm
Location: Nowhere Atoll

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby Rolan7 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:48 pm

Jack's a foolamancer, it's possible he wasn't as happy as he presented himself. He had been through a lot, and might have still been pining for Jillian. And... huh, he's no longer ashen after being decrypted. It's weird how happy he was after being decrypted, I guess it was earnest (if, possibly, artificial).
Rolan7
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:21 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby 0beron » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:03 pm

I think it's more a matter of the fact that casters (especially those who make it to the MK as Barbarians) have merely survived more trauma, as apposed to warlord who are probably only exposed to things they would consider traumatic when they're going to croak anyway. Warlords don't link, they don't have the powers and responsibility of casters, they almost never survive the fall of their side. The only thing they usually experience that we find traumatic is combat, but in Erfworld very few seem to bat an eye at that.

I agree that Jack's behavior was a combination of facade and lunacy. He was so traumatized and broken that his bahvior before Jillian "woke" him up wasn't realy happiness, he had simply lost his mind altogether. Given what he tells us of Foolamancy, this is even more demonstrated in his abysmal casting ability while Stanley is trying to flea. He was unable to properly percieve the world, so his veils were similarly out of wack.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3159
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby Man in the Mists » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:03 am

You know, I think DD might be onto something here. Predictamancer + Carnymancer could be as effective as Mathamancer + Luckamancer and (I suspect) Mathamancer + Moneymancer.
Man in the Mists
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:00 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby 0beron » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:14 am

There's always going to be trade-offs and backlash. If the two casters work together (or even link, all the better) then here is how I think it would work:

I've stated my theory that the future consists of certain fixed parameters, meaning that certain things will always happen, but the other details are in flux, and the paths time takes to those possible moments are legion and totally ruled by Free Will. So what you have are several "fixed points" that all have those parameters in common, connected to the present by countless strings. If you pair a Carny to a Predictamancer, you might be able to chose one of those "fixed points" and make it Fated. Instead of just a few parameters being fixed, you make everything about that point in time Fated, so now the future has to proceed to that one point rather than having several options.

If Posbroke does that, then he'll be able to chose the least unpleasant future for his side. It's still probably not going to be a fun ride, but it will be the best outcome possible without trying to defy the (thus far undefeated) hand of Fate. This way you basically make Fate's power do the work for you.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3159
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby bladestorm » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:13 am

0beron wrote:There's always going to be trade-offs and backlash. If the two casters work together (or even link, all the better) then here is how I think it would work:

I've stated my theory that the future consists of certain fixed parameters, meaning that certain things will always happen, but the other details are in flux, and the paths time takes to those possible moments are legion and totally ruled by Free Will. So what you have are several "fixed points" that all have those parameters in common, connected to the present by countless strings. If you pair a Carny to a Predictamancer, you might be able to chose one of those "fixed points" and make it Fated. Instead of just a few parameters being fixed, you make everything about that point in time Fated, so now the future has to proceed to that one point rather than having several options.

If Posbroke does that, then he'll be able to chose the least unpleasant future for his side. It's still probably not going to be a fun ride, but it will be the best outcome possible without trying to defy the (thus far undefeated) hand of Fate. This way you basically make Fate's power do the work for you.

Or the Carny could modify the unmentioned details of the Fate. Or shifting the undesired Fate to Creen while accepting a Fate that Creen has but doesn't know about-- a trade of one fixed point for another.
bladestorm
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 10:11 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby Lilwik » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:20 am

bladestorm wrote:Or the Carny could modify the unmentioned details of the Fate.
Erfworld would be a pretty crazy place if just mentioning a thing prevents Carnymancy from controlling it. Speaking something aloud doesn't usually change the reality of it.

bladestorm wrote:Or shifting the undesired Fate to Creen while accepting a Fate that Creen has but doesn't know about-- a trade of one fixed point for another.
But doing that would cause the Prediction to be wrong and surely that's not going to be possible. The whole first part of Book 0 was all about how foolish it is to try to escape the Fate that a Predictamancer has revealed.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1324
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby Rolan7 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:27 am

Lilwik wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Or the Carny could modify the unmentioned details of the Fate.
Erfworld would be a pretty crazy place if just mentioning a thing prevents Carnymancy from controlling it. Speaking something aloud doesn't usually change the reality of it.

bladestorm wrote:Or shifting the undesired Fate to Creen while accepting a Fate that Creen has but doesn't know about-- a trade of one fixed point for another.
But doing that would cause the Prediction to be wrong and surely that's not going to be possible. The whole first part of Book 0 was all about how foolish it is to try to escape the Fate that a Predictamancer has revealed.


It's possible that carneymancers can break those rules. Remember Sylvia? She was supposed to die, but her fate was changed and safeguarded... at great price.
Rolan7
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:21 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby Lipkin » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:28 am

I think this was a pretty cute update. If I was reading it right, both Dove and Doug were reacting defensively, while being impressed or excited about the discipline of the other. Doug doesn't know about the reputation of Dirtamancers in the Magic Kingdom, so he's ready to take offense. Plus, he's there to find a Carny, so he's quite happy to have stumbled upon one. Dove knows that Dirtamancers are some of the most well liked folks, and as Carnies are some of the most distrusted and hated, she thinks his response to finding out her discipline is a negative one. She's all but begging him not to end the conversation immediately.

It's kind of sweet. She's used to being distrusted, but she's just what he's looking for. He's used to being looked down upon, but he's being admired. The only thing keeping this from being a very touching moment is that he's such a perfect mark, and almost certainly about to be played.

If the three cards are foreshadowing Three-Card Monte, and the signmancy of her skin is a sign of a badly broken link, it could be that she was linked with the Predictamancer, and both are playing his entire side in favor of Numloch. The predictamancer is the shill, setting up the prediction that Weatherbug will lose all non-speaking units. Numloch intentionally leaves the golem alive to plant the seed that predictions can be twisted. Predictamancer also predicts a massive air attack. Homekey decides to press their luck and try to fight fate again. They hire the Carnymancer to try and twist fate. They do, but not in Homekey's favor. Maybe it doesn't go down quite like that, but the Predictamancer and Carnymancer being in league would make sense. The Dove is playing Doug a bit too well to not have known he was coming. And since Predictamancer and Carnies don't play well together, they probably have both been hired by a side to do so.

Or everything could be as it seems, and this could simply be a lesson on how to fight fate. Who knows.
User avatar
Lipkin
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby Lilwik » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:05 am

Lipkin wrote:If the three cards are foreshadowing Three-Card Monte, and the signmancy of her skin is a sign of a badly broken link, it could be that she was linked with the Predictamancer, and both are playing his entire side in favor of Numloch.
Based purely on the horrible reputation of Carnymancers in the Magic Kingdom I am very suspicious of Dove, but for exactly the same reason I find it highly unlikely that a Predictamancer would be working with her. Just look at Epilogue 14. Thinkamancers consider just working with a Carnymancer to be some sort of crime. Predictamancers may be considered unlucky, but surely their reputation isn't as bad as Carnymancers, and they wouldn't want it to be.

Lipkin wrote:The Dove is playing Doug a bit too well to not have known he was coming.
What are the odds that the very first caster Digdoug happens to run in to in the Magic Kingdom is exactly the discipline that he needs? He even thought she was a Hat Magician! It's a bit too coincidental.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1324
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby Jacinth and Rubies » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:35 am

Lipkin wrote:If the three cards are foreshadowing Three-Card Monte, and the signmancy of her skin is a sign of a badly broken link, it could be that she was linked with the Predictamancer, and both are playing his entire side in favor of Numloch. The predictamancer is the shill, setting up the prediction that Weatherbug will lose all non-speaking units. Numloch intentionally leaves the golem alive to plant the seed that predictions can be twisted. Predictamancer also predicts a massive air attack. Homekey decides to press their luck and try to fight fate again. They hire the Carnymancer to try and twist fate. They do, but not in Homekey's favor. Maybe it doesn't go down quite like that, but the Predictamancer and Carnymancer being in league would make sense. The Dove is playing Doug a bit too well to not have known he was coming. And since Predictamancer and Carnies don't play well together, they probably have both been hired by a side to do so.

Or everything could be as it seems, and this could simply be a lesson on how to fight fate. Who knows.


I really have difficulty seeing this as a Numlochian con (though we don't know much about that side admittedly) - it would take a lot of knowledge of casters and the MK on Numloch's part (as well as knowledge of Digdoug's inexperience with the MK), which is something that has really never been shown to be present in any warlord who isn't a caster, and even most casters seem woefully unaware of how other casters work. I suspect that Ms. Dove has genuinely fallen on hard times (her begging to even help for even a small fee screams desperation, even though it may be lost on Digdoug). Predictamancy may be seen as bad luck by royalty, but Carnymancy seem to be mistrusted by nonmagical AND magical Erfworlders alike. I do think we are about to receive a little insight into what Carnymancers can and cannot do, and I hope Dove can pull off this job successfully without too many negative repercussions to Homekey and Digdoug.

Lilwik wrote:What are the odds that the very first caster Digdoug happens to run in to in the Magic Kingdom is exactly the discipline that he needs? He even thought she was a Hat Magician! It's a bit too coincidental.

True, but then again, They (whoever "they" are) would have to know that Homekey's only caster was coming to the MK to hire a Carnymancer very soon - and that he has no previous knowledge of how the MK works. And while a Predictamancer might know that, it still involves learning that and being willing and able to entice a Carny to betray a contract. I'm not sure how eager a Carnymancer would be to further ruin their already ruinous reputation - then again, if you're really on hard times...
Still, the whole plan involves a lot of very non-traditional Erfworlder thinking - it may be possible, but with what strategy Numloch has shown so far, seems rather unlikely. Fate might be in play here... I suppose we shall see.
Jacinth and Rubies
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:40 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby Lipkin » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:52 am

Oh, it's totally a tinfoil hats theory, no doubt. Just trying to think outside the box. But being so hard up for gigs, I think a Predictamancer and Carnymancer could be convinced to work together for the right price.
User avatar
Lipkin
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby Omnimancer » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:04 am

Lipkin wrote:Oh, it's totally a tinfoil hats theory, no doubt. Just trying to think outside the box. But being so hard up for gigs, I think a Predictamancer and Carnymancer could be convinced to work together for the right price.


Betraying your clients seems like a really quick way for a caster to ruin their reputation and lose future business. Who could trust them again?
Omnimancer
Pins Supporter!
Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:34 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby Lipkin » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:14 am

Omnimancer wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Oh, it's totally a tinfoil hats theory, no doubt. Just trying to think outside the box. But being so hard up for gigs, I think a Predictamancer and Carnymancer could be convinced to work together for the right price.


Betraying your clients seems like a really quick way for a caster to ruin their reputation and lose future business. Who could trust them again?

Who would know? Fate is a tricky thing.
User avatar
Lipkin
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am

Re: Digdoug - Episode 8

Postby Lilwik » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:33 am

I would have said that reputation is the most important thing in the world to a Predictamancer, so a Predictamancer would never lie. But then I immediately thought of Delphie, and realized that sometimes Predictamancers do lie. It's hard to know what's real.

Here's a crazy theory. Maybe it was neither luck nor conspiracy that lead Digdoug straight to Dove. Maybe it was Carnymancy. A bit of debris deflects an arrow and saves Sylvia's life; that wasn't luck; that was Carnymancy, and if Carnymancy can do things like that, then what would a group of unemployed Carnymancers spend their days doing in the Magic Kingdom when they have no good use for their juice? I imagine they spend their days twisting Fate around their fingers in a quiet competition to arrange to be the one to meet whoever next comes into the Magic Kingdom looking to hire Carnymancer. Maybe whenever anyone goes looking for a Carnymancer some Carnymancer just happens to be in the first place you look.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1324
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Berserkas, Kaed, sdub and 14 guests